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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5-20020a056830240500b006060322123bsm3088764ots.11.2022.05.02.10.59.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 02 May 2022 10:59:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Bakul Shah Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2D57EB2F-5C78-4078-B618-4C9215FEC9EC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.80.82.1.1\)) Date: Mon, 2 May 2022 10:59:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: <9EB92333-42A7-401E-A273-D35A681B02A5@iitbombay.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.80.82.1.1) Subject: Re: [TUHS] First Unix-like OSes not derived from AT&T code? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail=_2D57EB2F-5C78-4078-B618-4C9215FEC9EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On May 2, 2022, at 10:42 AM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 12:16 PM Bakul Shah > wrote: > Thoth as students but QNX is not derived from it.=20 > Interesting. Possible I suppose. Derived is probably the operative = word here. Of course, it is also quite possible that I could be = miss-remember the conversations, but as IIRC both Mike Malcolm and Dan = Hildebrandt have said to me about the influence of one on the other when = I have spoken with them socially. Also, Kelly (who got the shirt and = was at Waterloo during that time), and was the person that introduced me = to Mike in the late 1970s; also said something similar to me. [I scramble old memories all the time but I seem to remember random = facts that are of no use to me :-)] >=20 > FWIW: In the late 1980s, I too used QNX (in C) in a production setting = on a 386. Before that, I had played with Thoth in a grad OS course, but = I never ran it significantly. >=20 > That said, my point was that Thoth was not trying to be a UNIX = look/work alike from an API standpoint. Thoth, like V, RIG, Accent, = et al, were all distinct developments that learned from the UNIX work = but were not trying to emulate it. When QNX was birthed, the mK was = not trying to be UNIX, but they, like Mach later on (after the failure = of Accent), did try to supply an application layer UNIX (and later full = POSIX) API.=20 Indeed. These were all research OSes. The thing that distinguished Unix = was the collection of tools and composability via pipes and shell that = made for a very nice development env. As a grad student I didn't quite = appreciate this (not having used Unix) but the moment I used it, I was = sold on it! =46rom what I remember, A Thoth "team" was about the same as a Unix = "process" and Thoth "process" was a thread in a team. That to me was the = most interesting part about it. Unix got threads much later. =20 > The point that started this thread was when UNIX emulated. >=20 > BTW: I had Ieft out another important Pascal-based UNIX clone. In = 1983, Michael Gien published his work in USENIX on Sol. In the early = 1990s, he and his team rewrote that in C++ to create Chorus. I remember Sol but by then I had moved on from Pascal. > When OSF announced its long-term strategy for OSF/1 was to be based on = Mach; UI announced that the future SVR6 was to be based on Chorus. = While the former was eventually released (and I think the sources can = still be found in the wild), I did not believe the latter was ever = completed. --Apple-Mail=_2D57EB2F-5C78-4078-B618-4C9215FEC9EC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On May 2, 2022, at 10:42 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> = wrote:



On = Mon, May 2, 2022 at 12:16 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>= wrote:
 Thoth as students but QNX is not derived from = it. 
Interesting. Possible I suppose.  Derived is = probably the operative word here.  Of course, it is also quite = possible that I could be miss-remember the conversations, but as IIRC = both Mike Malcolm and Dan Hildebrandt have said to me about = the influence of one on the other when I have spoken with them = socially.  Also, Kelly (who got the shirt and was at Waterloo = during that time), and was the person that introduced me to Mike in the = late 1970s; also said something similar to = me.

[I scramble old memories all the time but I seem to = remember random facts that are of no use to me :-)]


FWIW: In the late = 1980s, I too used = QNX (in C) in a = production setting on a 386.  = Before that, I = had played with = Thoth in a grad OS = course, but I never ran it = significantly.

That said, my point was that Thoth was not trying to be a = UNIX look/work alike from an API standpoint.   Thoth, like = V,  RIG, Accent, et al, were all distinct = developments that learned from the UNIX work but were not trying to = emulate it.   When QNX was birthed, the mK was not trying to = be UNIX, but they, like Mach later on (after the failure of Accent), did = try to supply an application layer UNIX (and later full POSIX) = API. 

Indeed. These were all research OSes. The thing = that distinguished Unix was the collection of tools and composability = via pipes and shell that made for a very nice development env. As a grad = student I didn't quite appreciate this (not having used Unix) but the = moment I used it, I was sold on it!

=46rom what I remember, A Thoth "team" was = about the same as a Unix "process" and Thoth "process" was a thread in a = team. That to me was the most interesting part about it. Unix got = threads much later.
 
The point that started this thread was when UNIX = emulated.

BTW: I had Ieft out another important Pascal-based UNIX = clone.  In 1983, Michael Gien published his work in USENIX on = Sol.  In the early 1990s, he and his team rewrote that in C++ to = create Chorus.

I remember Sol but by then I had moved on from = Pascal.

When OSF announced its long-term strategy for OSF/1 was = to be based on Mach; UI announced that the future SVR6 was to be based = on Chorus.  While the former was eventually released (and I think = the sources can still be found in the wild), I did not believe the = latter was ever = completed.

= --Apple-Mail=_2D57EB2F-5C78-4078-B618-4C9215FEC9EC--