From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 9343 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2022 09:32:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jul 2022 09:32:09 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B8D406E4; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 19:32:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.168]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E25534068E for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 19:31:50 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 09c355a6-04ea-11ed-a80d-005056aba152 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 09c355a6-04ea-11ed-a80d-005056aba152; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:31:15 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=gV6Zdc4jjTiNDfCQZx9FWVjONDyJVAubCCnrB8rBrWU=; b=A+imNM+771lVqTKzaWHDj2Rpoez2QBtQL1+mCL9OkfwVzaVAVbrQ54W9NpiyjMcdvODWQINXXLX/I QXX29tHAtt5KauXbuwvBH0FvvhucDyHiRwnvZQkfuzKzZcBjB1gYvfPR5E6awDHSjYnGnQD/8T/cQJ WPF0YlA6AgKcuxrE= X-KPN-MID: 33|+BuAt4t6K/4EhPv2101Rmj8ZLa0J32UTciSHmL3/G0Xl7VKQHE1hMvi4afaMYaX AJUWz2jol/2Vl85dNvauU+gkylLswd9fjDFB63zK6Mk4= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|txJivdF1RZxGRpJiYA8Kf9+SJAXisSQbQJnpBLfqWk9Q1gk8uPI4i24JXQdVmc5 WUDFlJcDClR2GgJJytW5Kvg== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 15553298-04ea-11ed-929b-005056ab1411; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:31:35 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: <2hK72A6Itq5yUS4eqzueKuU8hSC1JCR3XQbiHWTXnp-VS1V-eItyJ1gscCj2QR-0knXF7ukWVBxxzrC6e4TaN86l_2WAYK1eGrae2cskPb4=@protonmail.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:31:34 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2hK72A6Itq5yUS4eqzueKuU8hSC1JCR3XQbiHWTXnp-VS1V-eItyJ1gscCj2QR-0knXF7ukWVBxxzrC6e4TaN86l_2WAYK1eGrae2cskPb4=@protonmail.com> To: segaloco X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: DG4MGSNOIMLRRAYYMBYY5WHQHX6YFQYO X-Message-ID-Hash: DG4MGSNOIMLRRAYYMBYY5WHQHX6YFQYO X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: V8 4BSD or 32V Based? (was: Unix V8 Chaosnet, any takers?) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 15 Jul 2022, at 19:15, segaloco wrote: > Not trying to be combative by any means, but I've been doing a bit of = research lately into when V8 was snapped from BSD and where Bell and = Berkeley then diverged from that last major confluence, especially with = a focus on init and other early stages of userland. Not taken as combative - always working on the basis of my 'current = understanding=E2=80=99 and that is evolving continuously as new views = and facts present themselves. My comments were intended around the kernel code, not the userland. That = said, I=E2=80=99ve looked into this a bit more and I think you were more = right than I was. > "Research Unix 8th Edition started from (I think) BSD 4.1c, but with = enormous amounts scooped out and replaced by our own stuff." - Dennis = Ritchie That is a good quote, but I think there is a better way to look at this, = which is Warren=E2=80=99s tool to establish similarity between files (it = is integrated with the Unix Tree webpage on TUHS). > There's definitely a good chunk of code from 4BSD. Compare init, = getty, locore.c (as opposed to .s in V7 back). Heck, even the main.c = between the two kernels are more similar to each other than V7. I would = almost opt towards calling that being rebased on 4BSD rather than V7 = with bits and pieces of BSD added. I could see it being more beneficial = to start with 4BSD and tack on necessary Bell bits rather than take = V7/32V and try and shoehorn in the VM implementation for VAX. Looking at various kernel files in the V8 tree, it would seem that the = most comparable file in the TUHS database (and excluding V9-V10) would = typically be =E2=80=9CBBN-TCP=E2=80=9D, closely followed by =E2=80=9C4BSD=E2= =80=9D. This BBN-TCP kernel code is based on a snapshot of BSD from = August 1980 (see its history file). Joy sent it to Gurwitz for = integration of the BBN TCP stack with the BSD kernel. I think it is (or = is close to) 4.1BSD. =46rom the output of Warren=E2=80=99s tool, it also seems that 4.1c = deviated/evolved considerably from that base. It would require a more = in-depth comparison to say more, but based on this quick check I think = it is reasonable to say that V8 started from 4.1BSD (and not 32V as I = thought, or 4.1c as dmr remembered). It would be interesting to see what = the "enormous amounts scooped out=E2=80=9D exactly were -- but maybe = this refers more to the userland than the kernel. Some bits - like select() - were not in 4.1BSD and would have come from = 4.1c. The V8 kernel still has a lowcore.s (next to lowcore.c). = Interestingly, this has the best match with later BSD versions. In all = likelihood, there was cross-fertilisation after the initial code fork. > The 4.1cBSD copy on the archive does appear to be pretty different, so = in terms of raw comparison, I suspect the basis is 4BSD rather than = 4.1cBSD. I don't know that we have a clean copy of 4.1BSD gold, I'd be = interested to see if the structure of the source code changed between = 4.1 and 4.1c, as 4.1c does exhibit the new organization by the BSD = folks, 4BSD still shows folders like cmd, lib, and so on. Yes, we have (now) reached the same conclusion, but don=E2=80=99t forget = that V8 adds a lot of innovation on top of that (streams, file system = switch, virtual proc file system, networking, remote file system, = support for the Blit terminal, etc.). Networking in the V8 kernel = (including Chaos) is organised very differently from 4.1cBSD. Paul