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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v16sm301781oiv.23.2021.09.17.10.39.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: <58BCBB10-A303-41C0-8620-992B107786BB@pobox.com> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:39:52 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <202109161934.18GJYFsl881498@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210916194103.GK26820@mcvoy.com> <58BCBB10-A303-41C0-8620-992B107786BB@pobox.com> To: David Arnold X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sep 16, 2021, at 4:54 PM, David Arnold wrote: >=20 > And it=E2=80=99s not just those applications: to have your new OS be = useful, you need to support a dozen languages, a hundred protocols, = thousands of libraries =E2=80=A6 a vast range of stuff that would take = years, perhaps decades, to port over or reinvent in your new paradigm. >=20 > The idea that you=E2=80=99d turn your back on the accumulated value of = 50 years of countless people=E2=80=99s work because your set of system = calls is slightly better than the one you=E2=80=99ve got now =E2=80=A6 = that=E2=80=99s a very, very big call. >=20 > So I think the notion that =E2=80=9Cthe kids=E2=80=9D are less willing = to understand, or to drill deep, is doing them a disservice. They do = understand, and they (mostly) make the choice to leverage that body of = work rather than embark on the futility of starting afresh. I have mixed feelings about this. Unix didn't "throw away" the mainframe world of computing. It simply created a new ecosystem, more suited for the microprocessor age. For IBM it was perhaps the classic Innovator's Dilemma. Similarly now we have (mostly) the Linux ecosystem, while the actual hardware has diverged a lot from the C memory model. There are security issues. There is firmware running on these system about which the OS knows nothing. We have processors like Esperanto Tech's 1088 64 bit Risc-V cores, each with its own vector/tensor unit, 160MB onchip sram and 23.8B transistors but can take only limited advantage of it. We have super performant GPUs but programming them is vendor dependent and a pain. If someone can see a clear path through all this, and create a new software system, they will simply generate a new ecosystem and not worry about 50 years worth of work.=