From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28656 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2022 01:47:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Jun 2022 01:47:12 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C76742215; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 11:47:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (pb-smtp2.pobox.com [64.147.108.71]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED162421EE for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 11:47:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: from pb-smtp2.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A96712FBB5; Fri, 3 Jun 2022 21:46:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject :date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; s=sasl; bh=X2SpnP EYIyh2M13qcRpXawtmT6xvCsjFyRIz/bunDOc=; b=mES9l1+2dJrEKy4eYR87qe bSR6yQ+yWYTY+OCbKmP11YmbX+xClRv0/iX93+J3jne22KFYE72Ep2Y7Dzz/r3zj jho6bPOT7vhQi+bzA6k28MocS004Ua60OgEKxzynbnRNnik5oX0NJXgo3ttIX4pj VF10mhNqPstQMCzBGI770= Received: from pb-smtp2.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9274A12FBB4; Fri, 3 Jun 2022 21:46:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [1.145.11.249]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2DBB12FBB3; Fri, 3 Jun 2022 21:46:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: David Arnold Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 11:46:53 +1000 Message-Id: References: <20220604010543.GZ10240@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20220604010543.GZ10240@mcvoy.com> To: Larry McVoy X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19F77) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 379EE8BC-E3A8-11EC-9C07-CB998F0A682E-29049682!pb-smtp2.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: XTKZMEUJSZPJHMHNZLNJDSLGEWN3427N X-Message-ID-Hash: XTKZMEUJSZPJHMHNZLNJDSLGEWN3427N X-MailFrom: davida@pobox.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: [simh] Announcing the Open SIMH project List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: To bring the topic back to some relevance to SIMH:=20 Does it _matter_ that we=E2=80=99ve ended up with a handful of Linux variant= s (RH, Ubuntu, etc, plus Android) and BSD derivatives (macOS, iOS, etc) domi= nating the Unix world? If xBSD has some great idea, it=E2=80=99ll get wedged into Linux (one can ar= gue about the elegance of course) and the Apple *OS as soon as it proves ben= eficial to enough users. If one out-performs the other, you can bet someone= will track it down and fix it.=20 Even Windows is adopting Unix/Linux concepts now. If the kernel.org tree is both the source of many distro variants and the si= nk for many successful ideas, I can only hope OpenSIMH has similar success.=20= Vive la diff=C3=A9rence! d > On 4 Jun 2022, at 11:05, Larry McVoy wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, Jun 03, 2022 at 06:10:46PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 5:48 PM Larry McVoy wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Fri, Jun 03, 2022 at 04:52:52PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >>>>> The problem is there was {386,Net,Free,Open,DragonFly}BSD where there >>>>> should have just been "BSD". One, not a bunch. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Except from 1993-1996 there were only two of those BSDs. NetBSD and >>> FreeBSD >>>> forked in 1993 due to the inability of the patchkit to adequately cover= >>> the >>>> problems >>>> in 386BSD governance. >>>=20 >>> Um, so there were 3: 386, Net and Free. That's already 2 too many. >>=20 >> No. 386BSD died before then. >=20 > Says you. I was running it in at least 1995. >=20 >>> Sure, there are forks, but there is one tree that matters, and that is >>> Linus' tree. You can't say that about BSD and that is the problem in >>> it's entirety. If I want to change BSD, which one? >>>=20 >>=20 >> By your standards, only FreeBSD matters... so that's easy.. but you alrea= dy >> said Redhat is all that matters... and that kernel differs somewhat from >> Linus'. Ditto if you are dealing with Android... it's not just one Linux >> and never has been. >=20 > So in all of this, the thing that keeps getting missed is Linux won. > And it didn't win because of the lawsuit, it didn't get crushed by the > GPL that all the BSD people hate so much, it won on merits. And it > won because there was one Linux kernel. You could, and I have many, > many times, just clone the latest kernel and compile and install on > any distribution. It worked. The same was never true for all the BSD > variants. Tell me about the times you cloned the OpenBSD kernel and > it worked on FreeBSD. I'm maybe sure there was maybe one point in time > where that worked but then for all the other points in time it didn't. >=20 > Like I said, I built and supported a very complex application on all the > Linux platforms, all architectures, also supported on *BSD, HP-UX, AIX, > IRIX, SunOS, Solaris, Ultrix, etc, windows{xp,2000,2008,etc}, MacOS. > The problems I had between the various BSDs were orders of magnitude > bigger than the problems I had between the various Linux distros we > supported. >=20 > I will admit that we cloned NetBSD's stdio library because we needed > to make changes to it (we stacked CRC, XOR, gzip, lz4, etc on it).=20 > So we side stepped any stdio issues but for the rest we just made it > work. =20 >=20 > So my actual data trumps your opinion on this one. The BSD splintered=20 > enough that they might as well have been IRIX and HP-UX, they weren't > as crazy as AIX, I think AIX wins crazy, but they were dramatically > more different, in subtle and annoying ways, than any Linux distro was. >=20 > My whole point is that if BSD had a focus, either a dictator or a=20 > steering committee that people like me would have followed, it would > have won. It lost. It sucks that it did, I'm a BSD guy in my core, > but BSD lost. And it lost because of a failure in leadership. >=20 > You and the other BSD people don't like that message but it is what it > is. BSD lost because Linux had better leadership.