From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 20245 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2022 01:29:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 10 Nov 2022 01:29:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46CEF40CA7; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 11:29:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-sasl21.pobox.com [173.228.157.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0B440131 for ; Thu, 10 Nov 2022 11:28:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl21.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69404BB802; Wed, 9 Nov 2022 20:28:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=sasl; bh= Ayr9fvG6ue2b2uRRCQp3E6WIfPcE5dKUa7kwAr8b7Go=; b=lVqEUN91nwUckZVC VIoyU5nVMKuMrBdaLSz06SrsuunuWSJLtgUru+e/2sEmyX6PUNgZyi10CQOkxo53 +XTVDnLpzKjcd9glH8F8IwJObrTjNIqO2Fv2KoVC7z+OBHtEDfhDGbCqR0atzdK/ GaAHRylH29lWy5yprF+pdV8zEHo= Received: from pb-sasl21.sea.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-sasl21.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54997BB801; Wed, 9 Nov 2022 20:28:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Received: from [192.168.86.129] (unknown [203.132.93.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-sasl21.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 742D8BB800; Wed, 9 Nov 2022 20:28:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from davida@pobox.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.21\)) From: David Arnold In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2022 12:28:49 +1100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20221109221648.GS6203@mcvoy.com> <314617d9-2e2b-4f88-bce3-ec82e4fb378e@app.fastmail.com> To: segaloco X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.21) X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 0A0260CA-6097-11ED-B339-A2D45065221D-29049682!pb-sasl21.pobox.com Message-ID-Hash: MVWDZVH6VEPEH2DC3BEVNRU7AGDGHX3D X-Message-ID-Hash: MVWDZVH6VEPEH2DC3BEVNRU7AGDGHX3D X-MailFrom: davida@pobox.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Joseph Holsten , segaloco X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [OT?] 1993 'Sourceware' paper anniversary. What was right & any surprises? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 10 Nov 2022, at 11:47, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >=20 > What I find incredibly interesting any time the concept of = fragmentation comes up is how did several versions of UNIX with slightly = differing interfaces create such a headache for UNIX vendors and users = in the day, but now we've got a Linux/BSD landscape out there with still = pretty significant differences between distributions and UNIX's progeny = seem to be doing just fine. >=20 > Were users looking for different things from their computers in the = 90s vs today? Have folks just gotten more used to variability in = computing environments and just accept it as part of the plan? Two things, I think: a) Today most identifiably Unix software is =E2=80=9Csourceware=E2=80=9D, = and so the differences between Linuxes, *BSD, and macOS are fairly = easily taken care of (eg. with autotools). b) A lot of Unix software is now distributed (more or less) by the OS = vendor. Packaging has hidden the portability problem from the end user. > What comes to mind for me is the different init systems, desktop = environments, networking tools, user management tools, and basically = that anything that isn't lore in POSIX seems to be up in the air these = days. However, you go back to when SVR4 derivatives were king, they all = had the same init, the same useradd, the same /etc/passwd, the same = ifconfig. Maybe some of the snazzier new features were pretty variable, = but the most basic stuff like starting your system, creating a user, = seeing if you were connected to a network, essential administrative = functions, were relatively consistent. >=20 > Nowadays I have to wonder if my init system is runlevel based or some = systemd monstrosity. I have to question whether I can rely on useradd = or some other tool being present or if I should forgo it all and just = edit the /etc files directly. Heck, I couldn't say which but I seem to = recall a distro I played around with in the past year where this = actually didn't work, I had to research whatever arcane user management = tools they shipped with that one because whatever they chose broke with = convention so much. I have to pray it has ifconfig or else go look up = the docs for iproute2 and iw because nobody can make up their mind on = what to replace ifconfig with, just that it has to go and replacing it = haphazardly and non-universally is better than fixing/modernizing it. >=20 > Not looking to start some great debate over which of these components = is ideal of course, just remarking at the fact that in the early 90s, if = you were on a contemporary UNIX system, you'd probably have no trouble = modifying system init, adding users, networks, etc., but today I sit = down at an unknown Linux machine and I have no confidence that the = particular flavor of system administration that I'm used to will be even = remotely represented in the subset of tools that particular distro = ships. Luckily, it's free, so perhaps that is what has made the = difference, folks are more willing to deal with variability when they = aren't paying for what should be a consistent experience, but = regardless, the fragmentation in Linux world today feels like it is much = more severe than UNIX was in the past, but that's also looking through a = lens upon a time I certainly wasn't cognizant of this stuff in. iOS and Android are the most popular end-user Unix systems. None of = these concerns matter there =E2=80=94 they=E2=80=99ve got two completely = incompatible layered APIs that hide the fact they=E2=80=99re Unix from = applications and users. Even if you restrict the discussion to non-mobile systems, macOS and = ChromeOS probably top the list for end-user systems. Again, none of = these concerns matter. I mention this to make the point that =E2=80=9CUni= x=E2=80=9D is not what it once was, both in technical terms, and in = commercial success. d=