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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i205sm2110461oif.14.2021.08.02.17.21.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Aug 2021 17:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Bakul Shah In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 17:21:09 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Adam Thornton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Subject: Re: [TUHS] Systematic approach to command-line interfaces X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" Or perhaps the issue is not having graphics/GUI designers with the creativity and sensibilities of the early Bell Labs crowd of = researchers? I keep thinking there ought to be something simpler/more elegant than the current graphics subsystems.... > On Aug 2, 2021, at 11:16 AM, Adam Thornton = wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > It's a measure of Unix having been wounded by its own success. >=20 > fork() is a great model for a single-threaded text processing pipeline = to do automated typesetting. (More generally, anything that is a = straightforward composition of filter/transform stages.) Which is, = y'know, what Unix is *for*. >=20 > It's not so great for a responsive GUI in front of a multi-function = interactive program. >=20 > These days, the vast majority of Unix applications are "stuff people = play with on their phones." >=20 > Adam >=20 > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 7:59 AM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Sun, Aug 01, 2021 at 10:42:53PM -0400, Douglas McIlroy wrote: > > > spawn() beats fork()[;] fork() should be deprecated > >=20 > > Spawn is a further complication of exec, which tells what signals = and > > file descriptors to inherit in addition to what arguments and > > environment variables to pass. > >=20 > > Fork has a place. For example, Program 1 in > > www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~doug/sieve/sieve.pdf forks like crazy and = never > > execs. To use spawn, the program would have to be split in three (or > > be passed a switch setting). > >=20 > > While you may dismiss Program 1 as merely a neat demo, the same idea > > applies in parallelizing code for use in a multiprocessor world. >=20 > It's certainly clear that some kind of primitive is needed to create > new threads. An open question is whether if there exists some kind of > "new thread" primitve plus either spawn(2) or some kind of "create a > child process and then then frob like crazy using 'echo XXX > > /proc//'" whether there still is a need for a > fork(2) system call. >=20 > Obviously, as soon as we start going down this path, we're deviated > quite strongly from the "radical simplicity" of Unix Version 7 that > people have accused modern systems (whether they be Linux or FreeBSD) > of lacking. It's rather interesting that we haven't heard complaints > about how people who dare to try come up with new API's are somehow > traitors to "The Unix Philosphy" that we've seen on other threads. = :-) >=20 > - Ted