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[86.8.55.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-35ef2b70b53sm108695f8f.50.2024.06.05.11.22.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Jun 2024 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Jeffrey Joshua Rollin Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 19:22:36 +0100 Message-Id: References: In-Reply-To: To: Will Senn X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21F90) Message-ID-Hash: IO5NT5AVQ2XXP6XZOTLEHAOO4TGSODHB X-Message-ID-Hash: IO5NT5AVQ2XXP6XZOTLEHAOO4TGSODHB X-MailFrom: jefftwopointzero@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , Andrew Lynch , TUHS Main List X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: most direct Unix descendant List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Following this line of thought, - and with the disclaimer that my own person= al existence begins roughly where what has been called =E2=80=9CThe Last Tru= e UNIX=E2=80=9D [Seventh Edition] ends, I=E2=80=99d say that, if ESR - who I= know can be controversial - is correct, =E2=80=9CBSD won in the marketplace= , but System V won the standards wars=E2=80=9D or words to that effect. With that in mind, and given that NetBSD was forked from 386BSD and in turn g= ave rise to the other BSDs around today, it would be my candidate for =E2=80= =9Cmost direct descendant available today,=E2=80=9D particularly if we=E2=80= =99re talking wide availability. (Whilst V1-6 and beyond were of course only= available to users of business and academic mainframes and minicomputers, I= =E2=80=99d argue that the other two contenders, Solaris and HP-UX, are suffi= ciently rare in comparison to the availability even of the open source BSD=E2= =80=99s that the word =E2=80=9Cavailable=E2=80=9D would be doing some rather= heavy lifting if I were to include them.) The BSDs (except macOS and whatev= er SCO=E2=80=99s cash cow is called this evening) are also open source, of c= ourse, which is inline with the spirit of early Unix. I=E2=80=99ve not done an audit - and am not qualified to - but I suspect the= main objection to this line of thinking is that despite the fact it still r= uns on VAX, it would not surprise me in the least to find that (excluding co= mments, perhaps), not a single line of code remains the same in NetBSD 10 (a= nd indeed several versions prior) to the equivalent in V7 - and again, I=E2=80= =99ve no idea how much of V1 remains in V7, nor (other than knowing it was w= ritten in assembly) how closely early PDP-11 versions resembled PDP-7 versio= ns. By then, I suspect we really are getting into the Ship of Theseus proble= m - as the ancient Greeks would have been familiar with the issue, by the ti= me every single plank of Theseus=E2=80=99 Ship has been replaced because the= old ones have decayed, is it really the Ship of Theseus anymore? Plus of course, though it=E2=80=99s more a legal issue than a philosophical o= ne, not only at least one version of Mach-based macOS, but also one distribu= tion of Linux - which is known not to contain either Minix or UNIX code - h= ave been certified as UNIX by The Open Group. My 2c Jeff Sent from my iPhone > On 5 Jun 2024, at 18:51, Will Senn wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 6/5/24 12:34 PM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>> On Wednesday, June 5th, 2024 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Lynch via TUHS wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi >>>=20 >>> Out of curiosity, what would be considered the most direct descendent of= Unix available today? >>>=20 >>> ... >>>=20 >>> Thanks, Andrew Lynch >> snip >> Given this, my humble opinion (which again this sort of thing I believe i= s largely a philosophical matter of opinion...) is that the BSD line capture= s the spirit of Research UNIX much more than System V does, while System V r= etains much more of the source code lineage of what most folks would conside= r a "pure" UNIX. Of course all of this too is predicated on treating V7 (re= ally 32V...) as that central point of divergence. > When I saw this thread appear, I was of two minds about it, but this lines= up with where my thoughts were headed. I've done a lot of delving into the v= 6/v7 environments over the last 10 years or so and it feels much closer in k= inship to BSD derivatives than to SysV... source code lineages aside. Also, I= get more mileage out of my BSD books and docs than those treating SysV. I'd= vote for *BSD as sticking closest to the unix way, if there is still such a= thing... I say this as I just typed 'kldload linux64' into freebsd's termin= al so I could run sublime alongside nvi... sometimes I wish I was a purist, b= ut I'm way too fond of experimentation :). >=20 > Will