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[107.215.223.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d15-20020a02604f000000b0039e89ea68f9sm5036263jaf.135.2023.01.30.15.05.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Jan 2023 15:05:16 -0800 (PST) From: Bakul Shah Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.400.51.1.1\)) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 15:05:05 -0800 References: <202301300750.30U7oQTh013304@freefriends.org> <20230130150219.GD12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130152703.GE12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130154555.GF12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130161846.GH12306@mcvoy.com> <20230130212434.GL12306@mcvoy.com> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.400.51.1.1) Message-ID-Hash: ERJDLJ2SH2JAWVPHDTGZUQKQDJTH5U2J X-Message-ID-Hash: ERJDLJ2SH2JAWVPHDTGZUQKQDJTH5U2J X-MailFrom: bakul@iitbombay.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Child of plan9? (Re: FD 2 List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: This wish is perhaps shared by no one else but I'd still love to have a = system where the kernel has the clean architectural lines of plan9 + more good stuff from it, and a Unixy API = for many existing programs, perhaps as a shared lib. And I don't want = all the heft of BSD or Linux kernels! Now this may be quite impractical (like trying to make C as safe as = Rust) but that is what I want! I just think there is a lot more here = that can be explored further. > On Jan 30, 2023, at 2:15 PM, Rob Pike wrote: >=20 > There was Plan 9 source available, but the early releases were in the = AT&T Unix mode and required some payment or academic connection. The = early demo disks might not have had source - I don't remember - but if = not, there was simply no room on a floppy. The CD releases had full = source. >=20 > Plan 9 was a research system. It was hoped that maybe one day it would = become a commercial success, but that was never the prime motivation. It = only "failed" as a product, and there are many contributing factors = there, including existing systems that were good enough, a desire for = people to have "workstations" and ignore the benefits of a completing = window UI on a mainframe (Cray was an exception, earlier), and AT&T = lawyers refusing to think realistically about open source (about as = polite a way I can express a multiyear fight that never ended, only = fizzled into stalemate). >=20 > As a research system, Plan 9 was a huge success. We're still talking = about its ideas 30+ years on. >=20 > -rob >=20 >=20 > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 8:24 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 02:03:32PM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:18 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 11:09:03AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:45 AM Larry McVoy = wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:35:25AM -0500, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > > > Plan 9 was different, and a lot of people who were familiar = with Unix > > > > > > didn't like that, and were not interested in trying out a = different > > > > > > way if it meant that they couldn't bring their existing = mental models > > > > > > and workflows into the new environment unchanged. > > > > > > > > > > > > At one point it struck me that Plan 9 didn't succeed as a = widespread > > > > > > replacement for Unix/Linux because it was bad or incapable, = but > > > > > > rather, because people wanted Linux, and not plan9. > > > > > > > > > > Many people make that mistake. New stuff instead of extend = old stuff. > > > > > > > > Some would argue that's not a mistake. How else do we innovate = if > > > > we're just incrementally polishing what's come before? > > > > > > I didn't say limit yourself to polishing, I said try and not = invalidate > > > people's knowledge while innovating. > > > > > > Too many people go down the path of doing things very differently = and > > > they rationalize that they have to do it that way to innovate. = That's > > > fine but it means it is going to be harder to get people to try = your > > > new stuff. > > > > > > The point I'm trying to make is that "different" is a higher = barrier, > > > much, much higher, than "extend". People frequently ignore that = and > > > that means other people ignore their work. > > > > > > It is what it is, I doubt I'll convice anyone so I'll drop it. > >=20 > > Oh, I don't know. I think it's actually kind of important to see = _why_ > > people didn't want to look deeper into plan9 (for example). The = system > > had a lot to offer, but you had to dig a bit to get into it; a lot = of > > folks never got that far. If it was really lack of job control, then > > that's a shame. >=20 > It's certainly not just job control. I think it's a combo of being > unfamiliar, no source (at first I believe) and Linux was already=20 > pretty far along. >=20 > The lesson is that if there is an installed base, and you want people > to move, you have to make that easy and there has to be a noticeable > gain. Plan 9 sounded cool to me but Linux was easy. > --=20 > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing = http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat