From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2154 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2023 00:20:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 27 Jan 2023 00:20:27 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04A21424CD; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:20:21 +1000 (AEST) Received: from ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl (ewsoutbound.kpnmail.nl [195.121.94.168]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E3DC424C9 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 10:20:09 +1000 (AEST) X-KPN-MessageId: 5452b61c-9dd8-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152 Received: from smtp.kpnmail.nl (unknown [10.31.155.37]) by ewsoutbound.so.kpn.org (Halon) with ESMTPS id 5452b61c-9dd8-11ed-a1d8-005056aba152; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:19:57 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=planet.nl; s=planet01; h=to:message-id:date:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=vwLfOtWIMIlPYIa76zsyqdsu9q1zLCsqgWFW9TywCwA=; b=cad77gC0mFwhylZ7JJJF4FVEzsTYJLie5SnraMME0gjYlhnVlENw/3t63ZcPooxWGx1Us9sC2krpS ZuLP1pHrpIUEOzW7OQvBz/w1nxoLJf7FfPhogQTppKhXrovgUKxqUf+aZMcSNTciObjDeZo05k/fUm wp2fj4p5ve4tWXqQ= X-KPN-MID: 33|019O8vAdGQBpYCOG78rn5TGyPQptzEDnFo4CGZPp0k62ABnP87uUJAWNIgUXB8G BLtmpjkY8ODvJlr08+jh0+cH0mT9asYEdnhHE8GcTmso= X-KPN-VerifiedSender: Yes X-CMASSUN: 33|/7FdZk86As5eFoscrK+dLtPI6M/bdSUO3qY/G9HKc3fMMuY5DDMHD3vqPStba8Z bcVc3fswX4nW6s66lX+X+3w== X-Originating-IP: 77.172.38.96 Received: from smtpclient.apple (77-172-38-96.fixed.kpn.net [77.172.38.96]) by smtp.kpnmail.nl (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 5588f454-9dd8-11ed-ae07-005056ab1411; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:19:59 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) From: Paul Ruizendaal In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 01:19:58 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> <0778FF74-7DF5-4072-95F3-5FF5BEB4CC33@planet.nl> To: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) Message-ID-Hash: JUTFO7Y5DFFJUVB5M3BFSWC6MEEZNZU2 X-Message-ID-Hash: JUTFO7Y5DFFJUVB5M3BFSWC6MEEZNZU2 X-MailFrom: pnr@planet.nl X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Bakul Shah X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: > On 26 Jan 2023, at 23:45, Bakul Shah wrote: >=20 > On Jan 26, 2023, at 2:17 PM, Paul Ruizendaal wrote: >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Bakul Shah bakul at iitbombay.org=20 >>> Fri Jan 27 05:39:30 AEST 2023 >>>=20 >>> I wonder if this mythical w is the same as V's VGTS as it seems to = have >>> pretty much the same model. >>> =46rom https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357332.357334 And the answer is =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D: =46rom = https://apps.hci.rwth-aachen.de/borchers-old/cs377a/materials/p79-scheifle= r.pdf : "The name X derives from the lineage of the system. At Stanford = University, Paul Asente and Brian Reid had begun work on the W window = system [3] as an alternative to VGTS [13, 22] for the V system [5]. Both = VGTS and W allow network-transparent access to the display, using the = synchronous V communication mechanism. Both systems provide =E2=80=9Ctext=E2= =80=9D windows for ASCII terminal emulation. VGTS provides graphics = windows driven by fairly high-level object definitions from a structured = display file; W provides graphics windows based on a simple display-list = mechanism, with limited functionality. We acquired a UNIX- based version = of W for the VSlOO (with synchronous communication over TCP [24] = produced by Asente and Chris Kent at Digital=E2=80=99s Western Research = Laboratory. =46rom just a few days of experimentation, it was clear that = a network- transparent hierarchical window system was desirable, but = that restricting the system to any fixed set of application-specific = modes was completely inadequate. It was also clear that, although = synchronous communication was perhaps acceptable in the V system (owing = to very fast networking primitives), it was completely inadequate in = most other operating environments. X is our =E2=80=9Creaction=E2=80=9D = to W.=E2=80=9D The reference [3] is "ASENTE, P. W reference manual. Internal document, = Dept. Computer Science, Stanford Univ., Calif., 1984.=E2=80=9D The version of X discussed in the paper was apparently part of the = 4.3BSD distribution tapes: "The use of X has grown far beyond anything we had imagined. Digital has = incorporated X into a commercial product, and other manufacturers are = following suit. With the appearance of such products and the release of = complete X sources on the Berkeley 4.3 UNIX distribution tapes, it is no = longer feasible to track all X use and development.=E2=80=9D And I was wrong with: > I never really distinguished between the Stanford "SUN" and the Sun = Microsystems "Sun-1=E2=80=9D, oops. Taking Clem=E2=80=99s comment into = account I could see that the SUN ran the V kernel and the W graphics = system, and that the Sun-1 was using an early form of X. Whilst the part about SUN may be correct, the Sun-1 was apparently using = MGR and SunWindows/SunView -- at least according to the interesting blog = post here (discussed on TUHS a few months ago): = https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/10/if-one-guis-not-enough-for-your-sparc.= html