From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18348 invoked from network); 28 Feb 2022 23:50:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 28 Feb 2022 23:50:56 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B85A99CFB3; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:50:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2FE49CC02; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:49:16 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="key not found in DNS" (0-bit key; unprotected) header.d=humeweb.com header.i=@humeweb.com header.b="GjFdGT/T"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 34BDC9CC02; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:49:04 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 1312 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 09:48:59 AEST Received: from gateway13.unifiedlayer.com (gateway13.unifiedlayer.com [74.220.209.164]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6B2A9CBCE for ; Tue, 1 Mar 2022 09:48:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from cm6.websitewelcome.com (unknown [108.167.139.19]) by gateway13.unifiedlayer.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CDBA200978C9 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:27:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from dallas136.arvixeshared.com ([23.91.70.4]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id OpQ2n1GZMtGNQOpQ2nbVfN; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:27:06 -0600 X-Authority-Reason: nr=8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=humeweb.com ; s=default; h=References:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:Date:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Message-Id:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ekmFsiZb9jOR9tJcSF6dZAYOopwAASko0IJaKBFu4sk=; b=GjFdGT/Ttgty0weuiqVUBZx0m4 7U1/0QCTLHUum0opreWj1nNDGryna7XjUqzc9Qfpw2MUKSuU7gb49NYjZItAnaeXTe/SVXilWrAOo r3S0hec00CSTBgTWOHYxPRKjGmk98PWrPP1wmr3Jfl6nJ5vOJbSmCEwrCvNSg08CikYQ=; Received: from 99-98-248-85.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net ([99.98.248.85]:64531 helo=smtpclient.apple) by dallas136.arvixeshared.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1nOpQ2-003wLt-A4; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:27:06 -0600 From: Andrew Hume Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D9E144E2-7F94-4BE7-9037-D24EADCE9C59" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.60.0.1.1\)) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:27:04 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Clem Cole References: <4e3c05d2-2496-b917-f1f4-1c6cba9ef58a@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.60.0.1.1) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - dallas136.arvixeshared.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - minnie.tuhs.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - humeweb.com X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 99.98.248.85 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1nOpQ2-003wLt-A4 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: 99-98-248-85.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net (smtpclient.apple) [99.98.248.85]:64531 X-Source-Auth: andrew@humeweb.com X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: YWh1bWU7YWh1bWU7ZGFsbGFzMTM2LmFydml4ZXNoYXJlZC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Subject: Re: [TUHS] Memory on Lion's v6 X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --Apple-Mail=_D9E144E2-7F94-4BE7-9037-D24EADCE9C59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 the actual configuration of Lions=E2=80=99 PDP 11/40 was 128 Kbytes of core memory,=20 a DJ11 terminal multiplexor and=20 three RK05 disc units each,=20 but note that because of the way the machines were bought, and because of addressing weirdness (the top 8KB were memory-mapped to = I/O registers), Lions=E2=80=99 PDP actually had 112KB of main memory. the PDP 11/40 had 18bits of address space, so while processes were = limited to 64KB, the system could have had 256KB. > On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:48 AM, Clem Cole wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 12:51 AM Will Senn > wrote: > Does anybody know how much memory was configured on the PDP-11 that = Lion's used for the commentary system. Here's what the book says about = the system: >=20 > ; from lions, page 1 > ; The code selection presumes a "model" system consisting of: > ; PDP11/40 processor; > ; RK05 disk drives; > ; LP11 line printer; > ; PC11 paper tape reader/punch; > ; KL11 terminal interface. >=20 > I usually add the mag tape, too > ; TM10 magnetic tape - not in lions, but super handy >=20 > It seems like he must have had an MMU and 128k memory, but I don't = know. I'm hoping y'all remember, know, or can otherwise divine the = correct value. I've run with no MMU - crash on boot. I've also run with = less memory, but then cc won't build mkconf, when I have the TM10 = enabled kernel loaded. As a reminder, his book was published in 1977. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Will >=20 > Can't tell you definitively. You'd need to ask some one like Andrew. >=20 > FWIW: the 11/40 has a MMU, but does not support split I/D like the 45. = He has 256K bytes [128k words] as the Max memory. IIRC v6 will boot = with 48K words [96K bytes] - maybe a little less. But the less physical = memory, the slower the system (the more it swaps). =20 >=20 > DEC was just switching to semiconductor memory at the time and it was = pretty expensive. The MS11-B was MOS based 18 bit x 4K word modules for = the 11/45, which were dual ported Unibus and Fastbus. I have forgotten = what the 11/40 used as we tended not to use DEC memory modules***. >=20 > Lions and his team was likely to have been between 96K and 256K max, = depending on budget. In my experience, we tended to build up to max = memory on systems, but only as soon as we could afford it. In my = experience, we often bought the machines in phases... just enough to = boot it, with two or three RK05's to start. Then add more memory and = more serial ports and more terminals. Then more (larger) disk and maybe = a tape drive and printer, and then even more serial ports and some sort = of modems and network connections. >=20 >=20 > Clem >=20 >=20 >=20 > *** At CMU during those days, we tended to use aftermarket memory or = locally designed memory boards on the 11/40 and 11/34s as EE/CS had = negociate and bought a few megabytes of memory chips from National Semi = for C.mmp at a heavy discount - other groups could add to that order as = needed. --Apple-Mail=_D9E144E2-7F94-4BE7-9037-D24EADCE9C59 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 the = actual configuration of Lions=E2=80=99 PDP 11/40 was
128 = Kbytes of core memory, 
a DJ11 terminal multiplexor = and 
three RK05 disc units = each, 

but note that = because of the way the machines were bought,
and because of = addressing weirdness (the top 8KB were memory-mapped to I/O = registers),
Lions=E2=80=99 PDP actually had 112KB of main = memory.
the PDP 11/40 had 18bits of address space, so while = processes were limited
to 64KB, the system could have had = 256KB.

On Feb 28, 2022, at 7:48 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> = wrote:



On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 12:51 AM Will = Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
Does anybody = know how much memory was configured on the PDP-11 that Lion's used for the commentary system. Here's what the book says about the system:

; from lions, page 1
; The code selection presumes a "model" system consisting of:
; PDP11/40 processor;
; RK05 disk drives;
; LP11 line printer;
; PC11 paper tape reader/punch;
; KL11 terminal interface.

I usually add the mag tape, too
; TM10 magnetic tape - not in lions, but super handy

It seems like he must have had an MMU and 128k memory, but I don't know. I'm hoping y'all remember, know, or can otherwise divine the correct value. I've run with no MMU - crash on boot. I've also run with less memory, but then cc won't build mkconf, when I have the TM10 enabled kernel loaded. As a reminder, his book was published in 1977.

Thanks,

Will

Can't tell you = definitively.  You'd need to ask some one like = Andrew.

FWIW: the 11/40 has a = MMU, but does not support split I/D like the 45.  He has =  256K bytes [128k words] as the Max memory.  IIRC v6 will = boot with 48K words [96K bytes] - maybe a little less.  = But the less physical memory, the slower the system (the more it swaps). =  

DEC was just switching = to semiconductor memory at the time and it was pretty expensive.  = The MS11-B was MOS based 18 bit x 4K word modules for the 11/45, = which were dual ported Unibus and Fastbus.  I have forgotten what = the 11/40 used as we tended not to use DEC memory modules***.

Lions and his team was = likely to have been between 96K and 256K max, depending on budget. =    In my experience, we tended to build up to max memory = on systems, but only as soon as we could afford it.  In = my experience, we often bought the machines in phases... just = enough to boot it, with two or three RK05's to start.  Then = add more memory and more serial ports and more terminals.  Then = more (larger) disk and maybe a tape drive and printer, and then even = more serial ports and some sort of modems and network = connections.


Clem



*** At CMU during those = days, we tended to use aftermarket memory or locally designed memory = boards on the 11/40 and 11/34s as EE/CS had negociate and bought a few = megabytes of memory chips from National Semi for C.mmp at a heavy = discount - other groups could add to that order as = needed.
= --Apple-Mail=_D9E144E2-7F94-4BE7-9037-D24EADCE9C59--