From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 8061 invoked from network); 24 Feb 2023 00:08:00 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 24 Feb 2023 00:08:00 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F8343125; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:07:54 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1677197274; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=iEosUjBMujqRNbnNpCJpIX9oDTIfHrG9zbG0UAMBsV0=; b=J84gjhNmwqaFcbOvuQ6yz/kiYdXWC+XF04toqLnjbgyeHQQYJTB6kDX/wlSLqrIjf3cU1g Dw/fff5aWWtbW0eLpszj/t/1gM4pMB/WGwznMp76CWFrr85W4FmSN54mTUIhSM2nDAGZaw NqKZA260K9juCiOxHttve3Bbu+fAmSo= Received: from mail-4318.protonmail.ch (mail-4318.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.18]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 727A043124 for ; Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:07:46 +1000 (AEST) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2023 00:07:33 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1677197264; x=1677456464; bh=iEosUjBMujqRNbnNpCJpIX9oDTIfHrG9zbG0UAMBsV0=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=QJEFSrlD/OjV7xhG2a25AeWcAZu6fPvVBPZ92GhmyybYRHWLUQGWOA2BQEFcXv2f6 rWw6f2wakxOKyPx8fKPpC2a888R9zyLCU8NvY4wds99JHyAkn3PIbtVScj5YagnMtS fGS/j38um8bOrpzcEigOIOrr+86h2WxxI7vqZK3GhdUnAoKYA51xtlWM+qC1U0toVi COXs5ji7yg3MQDouWgWPv0wA/kCJpbMuof3uW8KMLDvCAkg5S33en5/bq1gl8lf7h9 9XIDZCJF238QAAT361UpCTT2TLojiqZ819FL//niIc+oARfhrAPVCFfEmNjyTe8zoF zlQG91R3d8HTg== To: segaloco Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1dhgF9hHhWQpilH7FnvrLre83BKzisxzxjZYUJKw00-xBa7PStIxJNFrO_zoGobWMPLBHTacFioWqbqPXGbEeWHXw-GTmTq5MeKEyiA38iE=@protonmail.com> References: <76DBD7F1-0419-4CF6-9249-866B0E11C73E@planet.nl> <1dhgF9hHhWQpilH7FnvrLre83BKzisxzxjZYUJKw00-xBa7PStIxJNFrO_zoGobWMPLBHTacFioWqbqPXGbEeWHXw-GTmTq5MeKEyiA38iE=@protonmail.com> Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: KQGVJTNNKUF2POEEQPK3ZJQABQSCMYBB X-Message-ID-Hash: KQGVJTNNKUF2POEEQPK3ZJQABQSCMYBB X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Paul Ruizendaal , "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Origins of the SGS (System Generation Software) and COFF (Common Object File Format) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco X-Spam: Yes Correction, I was able to track it down, this is what I was thinking of, no= t a Basic-16 board: https://www.ebay.com/itm/225277136492?hash=3Ditem347390= 4e6c:g:Mx8AAOSwxl9jiPUr&amdata=3Denc%3AAQAHAAAAoD7DdgbGGFS1yXoVSRPovN62X0RC= hnzorSRATDa223OYNsLVsFrfS6CoAzjlT18M5o6A4V2IGayHcmBqXNMyu8Y3vmiprgMCbbc%2Bn= NocVmkV6Z2qy83ys05tFWKt2GONSWjerKYUdn1l8n%2BhjfD2sCK0qT6Yk02OMv8jr0YZJN22gh= LXovR5IC8q%2BqmgcJWXgjK0jH9H%2FGwMHRVAyTTXC9A%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8ie24vQYQ I didn't expect to see that still up, for those who don't want to follow th= e link, this is a link to a Bell Labs MAC-8 "Mactutor". Still tempting, if= it's still bumping around on eBay after my move I might just have to sprin= g for it. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 2:11 PM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > Basic-16......augh I feel like I actually saw a Basic-16 eval board of so= me kind pop up in auctions in my documentation search the past few years. I= thought about bidding but I didn't, could've had some cool hardware to rep= ly back with pictures of. Lesson learned, if something catches my attention= enough I should probably research it more closely. >=20 > Thanks for the article link, that pretty much captures the sort of "origi= n story" I was seeking out on both the tools and format. I now realize I co= uld've known this already but didn't read far enough in the '84 Bell journa= l, I've got copies of that and the '78 one, I forget how many juicy details= are in there that didn't make it into manuals and technical reports. All t= he more reason to go back through and take some notes... >=20 > - Matt G. >=20 > ------- Original Message ------- > On Thursday, February 23rd, 2023 at 1:37 PM, Paul Ruizendaal pnr@planet.n= l wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 18:38:25 +0000 > > > Subject: [TUHS] Re: Origins of the SGS (System Generation Software) > > > and COFF (Common Object File Format) > > >=20 > > > For the sake of timelines: > > >=20 > > > June 1980 - Publication date on the front page of the 3.0 manual in w= hich the utilities are still very much research for PDP-11 and 32V-ish for = VAX where distinctions matter. > > >=20 > > > June 1981 - Publication date on the front page of the 4.1 manual in w= hich the man-pages very much refer to all of this as the "3B-20 object form= at" > > >=20 > > > June 1982 - Publication date on the front page of the 5.0 manual by w= hich point these same pages had been edited and extended to describe the "c= ommon object file format" > > >=20 > > > Additions at the 1981 release include dump(1), list(1), and the ld-pr= efixed library routines for managing these object files. These likewise per= sist in 5.0, SysV, and beyond as COFF-related tools. > > >=20 > > > So this puts the backstop of what would become COFF at at least '81. > > >=20 > > > - Matt G. > >=20 > > The surviving source code for SysV R2 supports this timeline: > > - The header files (start from https://github.com/ryanwoodsmall/oldsysv= /blob/master/sysvr2-vax/src/head/a.out.h) have dates of late =E2=80=9982, e= arly =E2=80=9983. > > - The source for exec() has a comment that refers to the 4xx magic form= ats as =E2=80=9Cpre 5.0 stuff=E2=80=9D. > > - The COFF format headers are #ifdef=E2=80=99ed for the 3B series. > >=20 > > Interestingly, the lowest magic numbers in the 5xx series are not for t= he 3B, but for the =E2=80=9CBasic-16=E2=80=9D and for the =E2=80=9Cx86= =E2=80=9D. That led me to this paper: > >=20 > > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/otherports/newp.pdf > >=20 > > It seems that the roots of COFF go back to the initial portability effo= rt for V7 and in particular the 8086 port (which was done in 1978 according= to the paper).