* [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
[not found] ` <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
@ 2002-01-19 22:18 ` Pete Turnbull
2002-01-20 1:05 ` AW: " lothar felten
2002-01-20 11:44 ` jkunz
2002-01-20 14:57 ` AW: " Pete Turnbull
2002-01-30 3:13 ` [pups] solution for the disklabel Pete Turnbull
2 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2002-01-19 22:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
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On Jan 19, 20:47, lothar felten wrote:
> hi there!
>
> well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so
> enclosure and backplane should be
> the same as a 11/23 (ba 23).
If I were to be really picky, I'd say you meant microPDP-11/23. 11/23-plus
would mean a BA11-S enclosure with a different type of backplane :-)
> backplane should
> be Q22/CD configuration, but
> i´ll open the box and look for the 501-
> number to be sure.
Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has a
model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
In an H9728-A the top three slots are Q22/CD-interconnect, and the rest are
Q22/Q22 serpentine (the 11/23-plus backplanes are different). When I
replied to your earlier email I assumed you just gave the order of the
boards, not the layout. The layout should be (reverse the positions of CPU
and memory if you wish):
---------KDJ11-B-CPU---------
---------MSV11-memory--------
------------RLV12------------
----RQDX3---- ----TQK50----
empty ----DEQNA----
I'm guessing you have a single memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551),
and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad board) rather than an RLV11 (two quad boards)
-- if not, that makes a difference to the layout. I'm also guessing at a
DEQNA (M7504) rather than any other Ethernet controller, but it makes no
difference to the placement, so long as it's a dual-height board. If you
added another dual-height board it would go under the RQDX3 (M7555), the
next would go under that, and the next under the DELQA, etc. The
arrangement of the slots after the first three is called "serpentine" or
occasionally "zig-zag".
> on the back there
> is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the
> cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass
> the number too).
All the KDJ11-B processors, whether 11/73 or 11/83, use the same printed
circuit board and module number. There were some differences about whether
an FPU could be fitted (due to an error on the original boards); those that
would not take an FPU were only sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks.
Others with 15MHz clocks were sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not
fitted). There are also some with 18MHz clocks, these were sold as
KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher. Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher
suffix. Early 11/73 are 15MHz. Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx
suffix actually refers to the EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or
the FPU. The *only* difference between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is
the firmware in the EPROMs.
However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the
memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. All of the
KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory. Beware, not all quad memory boards are
PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and bigger ones that I can think of are.
> do all 11/83 use PMI ?
Yes. They will work with QBus memory instead (and if you put a PMI board
after the processor instead of before it, it will run as normal QBus
memory)
but then what you have is effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83.
> but the memory seems to work, or has
> the cpu board some memory on it?
No, there's no memory on the CPU board, but the memory you have is running
as QBus memory.
> when i picked up the box they booted it, i
> suppose this configuration was the
> way they used it there and should have
> worked.
> the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable
> wich goes to a small board (wich
> was hanging on the backside) and a small
> frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was
> hanging on it.
Literally "hanging"? Not fixed to the front of the BA23? Is this actually
a floor-standing (or possibly rack-mounting) BA23 with space for a TK50 and
a drive unit, or a rackmount BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for
drives?
> it looks like
>
> *************
> * *'''''* O is a round hole (to hold a batch?)
> * O *'''''* '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose)
> * *'''''*
> *************
> * X B * X = run on/off ?(green led) B = reset ?
> * X X * X = write protect (red) X = online(green) for disk 0 ?
> * X X * X = write protect (red) X = online(green) for disk 1 ?
> *************
> X is a switch with led B is a button with led
> i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel
Neither have I. DEC used pushbuttons for the disk controls on microPDP-11
panels. Each section is separate, though; it sounds like someone has
replaced the pushbuttons or used third-party sub-panels. The round hole
(if this is an original DEC panel) is for the badge that says whether it's
a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73, microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc. The
rectangular hole is for the power switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread* AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
2002-01-19 22:18 ` Pete Turnbull
@ 2002-01-20 1:05 ` lothar felten
2002-01-20 11:44 ` jkunz
1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: lothar felten @ 2002-01-20 1:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
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hi there!
hi pete!
> If I were to be really picky, I'd
> say you meant microPDP-11/23. 11/23-plus
> would mean a BA11-S enclosure with
> a different type of backplane :-)
mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and
as deep as
the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces
1983-84" shows
some pictures of boxes: is might be the
BA11-S
>
> The backplane itself has a
> model number; for a BA23 it should
> be H9728-A.
>
on the backplane i found H9276-A.
i don´t know what -A means, but it should be
a Q22/CD
so no serpentine?
>
>
> I'm guessing you have a single
> memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551),
> and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad
> board) rather than an RLV11 (two
> quad boards)
> -- if not, that makes a difference
> to the layout. I'm also guessing at a
> DEQNA (M7504) rather than any
> other Ethernet controller, but it makes no
> difference to the placement, so
> long as it's a dual-height board.
>
now i´ve got the numbers here:
CPU: M8190-AE KDJ11-B
MEM: M7551-CC MSVC11-QC
RL02: M8061
DELQA: M7516
RQDX3: M7555
DEQNA: M7546
> There were some differences about whether
> an FPU could be fitted (due to an
> error on the original boards); those that
> would not take an FPU were only
> sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks.
> Others with 15MHz clocks were
> sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not
> fitted). There are also some with
> 18MHz clocks, these were sold as
> KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher.
> Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher
> suffix. Early 11/73 are 15MHz.
> Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx
> suffix actually refers to the
> EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or
> the FPU. The *only* difference
> between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is
> the firmware in the EPROMs.
hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have
AE
can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what
does
the fpu look like?
>
> However, the biggest difference
> between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the
> memory is used as QBus memory, or
> PMI memory, which is faster. All of the
> KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory.
> Beware, not all quad memory boards are
> PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and
> bigger ones that I can think of are.
so i should put in first memory then cpu.
>
> > do all 11/83 use PMI ?
>
> Yes. They will work with QBus
> memory instead (and if you put a PMI board
> after the processor instead of
> before it, it will run as normal QBus
> memory)
> but then what you have is
> effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83.
>
>
> Literally "hanging"? Not fixed to
> the front of the BA23? Is this actually
> a floor-standing (or possibly
> rack-mounting) BA23 with space for
> a TK50 and
> a drive unit, or a rackmount
> BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for
> drives?
well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now.
the panel and the pcb wich connects to the
two disks were literally "hanging"
when i got the box, it was a pdp-cabinet
and a second 19inch rack, containig old,
unused stuff and the tk50 and those 2 disks
there is a separate power supply for the
disks
now the tk50 and the disks are on a separate
table
>
> Neither have I. DEC used
> pushbuttons for the disk controls
> on microPDP-11
> panels. Each section is separate,
> though; it sounds like someone has
> replaced the pushbuttons or used
> third-party sub-panels. The round hole
> (if this is an original DEC panel)
it´s a original dec panel and dec pcb.
> is for the badge that says whether it's
> a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73,
> microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc. The
> rectangular hole is for the power
> switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet.
i suppose they changed CPU and memory from
the pdp11/23plus and put in half a 11/83.
the 3 switches at the frontbezel of the
BA11 work, the other "front"panel at the back
(from a 11/83) is only used to put the disks
online and write protect them. this would
also
explain why there is a connector "hanging"
at the rear-frontpanel.
a weird pdp.
--lothar
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
2002-01-19 22:18 ` Pete Turnbull
2002-01-20 1:05 ` AW: " lothar felten
@ 2002-01-20 11:44 ` jkunz
2002-01-20 15:01 ` Pete Turnbull
1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: jkunz @ 2002-01-20 11:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has a
> model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
"H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says
"H9278-A".
Lothar: If you wane look at the number and you have a BA23, you have to
remove the tin plate on top of the QBus card cage.
--
tschuess,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread* [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
2002-01-20 11:44 ` jkunz
@ 2002-01-20 15:01 ` Pete Turnbull
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2002-01-20 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Jan 20, 12:44, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>
> > Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part. The backplane itself has
> >a model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
> "H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says
> "H9278-A".
Typo.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
[not found] ` <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
2002-01-19 22:18 ` Pete Turnbull
@ 2002-01-20 14:57 ` Pete Turnbull
2002-01-30 3:13 ` [pups] solution for the disklabel Pete Turnbull
2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2002-01-20 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
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On Jan 20, 2:05, lothar felten wrote:
> mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and
> as deep as
> the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces
> 1983-84" shows
> some pictures of boxes: is might be the
> BA11-S
Sounds like you have what was a standard PDP-11/23 (or maybe 11/23+) system
in an office-type cabinet (H9642 or equivalent), with an RL02 in the top, a
stiffener panel, BA11-N or BA11-S box, a second RL02, and two blanking
plates at the bottom. Sometimes people moved the second RL02 down 3U and
put one blanking plate or an expansion box between the BA11 and the RL02.
As far as I remember, the only significant difference between a BA11-N and
a BA11-S is an uprated power supply, and a 22-bit backplane instead of an
18-bit one (but you can upgrade the 18-bit ones).
> on the backplane i found H9276-A.
> i don´t know what -A means, but it should be
> a Q22/CD
> so no serpentine?
Correct. There is a very similar backplane H9275-A which is all
serpentine, but not in a standard 11/23 box, as far as I remember. H9276-A
is for a BA11-S. BA11-N uses H9273.
> now i´ve got the numbers here:
> CPU: M8190-AE KDJ11-B
> MEM: M7551-CC MSVC11-QC
> RL02: M8061
> DELQA: M7516
> RQDX3: M7555
> DEQNA: M7546
OK. That should be fine, so long as there are no gaps in the A/B slots
(left side of backplane as you look into it from the back of the machine)
between the cards.
The original 11/23+ probably had an RQDX1 or RQDX2, and possibly an RLV11,
and certainly different memory.
> hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have
> AE can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what
> does the fpu look like?
The -AE means it's a later board, should be 18MHz, and should not only be
FPU-capable, it should actually have the FPJ-11 chip on it. -AD is the
same thing without the FPJ-11 fitted (it still does floating point ops,
just more slowly). If not, you'll probably find it easier to get a
replacement board with an FPU already on it, rather than get the FPU chip
on it's own.
> > However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether
> > memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. the
>
> so i should put in first memory then cpu.
To get the best performance, yes. It won't double the speed, or anything
like that, but it will go a bit faster.
> well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now.
If it's an H9276 backplane and H7861 PSU, yes.
> a weird pdp.
Not quite factory-standard :-) But none the less good.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread* [pups] solution for the disklabel
[not found] ` <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
2002-01-19 22:18 ` Pete Turnbull
2002-01-20 14:57 ` AW: " Pete Turnbull
@ 2002-01-30 3:13 ` Pete Turnbull
2002-01-30 15:03 ` Johnny Billquist
2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2002-01-30 3:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
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On Jan 27, 23:42, lothar felten wrote:
> installation was no problem, but still i
> have some questions:
> my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only
> get ^H. i tried the
> terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no
> difference.
Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H,
shown as ^H or ^h). Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use
stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h').
> i have some dec boards labeled M7513
> does anyone know what this
> is? i found:
> M7513 - RQD - RQDXE Q BUS drive
> interface extension module
That's exactly what it is. The BA23 box only supports one hard drive; the
RQDXE is an adaptor for an RXDX2 or RXDX3 to permit use of additional
drives with a distribution board in a second enclosure. One of the 50-pin
connectors goes to the RQDX3, one to the distribution board in the BA23,
and the third to a connector kit on the rear panel of the BA23. There's a
different version for an RQDX1, called an RQDX1E.
> the RQDX3 has another connector, i
> suppose for RX50 floppydrive.
An RQDX3 has only one connector, the 50-pin one to go to the distribution
board. Are you looking at the right thing? Are you looking at a
distribution board? That does have a 34-way connector for a floppy.
> can i hook up a 5,25" pc drive? maybe
> with modifications?
Not an ordinary PC floppy, no. A TEAC FD55GFR is an 80-track double-sided
drive (not HD, though) that will work as an RX33. Some other 80-track
5.25" drives may work, if you set the jumpers.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread* [pups] solution for the disklabel
2002-01-30 3:13 ` [pups] solution for the disklabel Pete Turnbull
@ 2002-01-30 15:03 ` Johnny Billquist
[not found] ` <bqt@update.uu.se>
2002-02-04 19:27 ` [pups] VT102 and other hardware.... was: " lothar felten
0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Johnny Billquist @ 2002-01-30 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On Jan 27, 23:42, lothar felten wrote:
>
> > installation was no problem, but still i
> > have some questions:
> > my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only
> > get ^H. i tried the
> > terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no
> > difference.
>
> Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H,
> shown as ^H or ^h). Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use
> stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h').
On a real VT100 you cannot get the delete key to generate a backspace. He
must be pressing the backspace key, or he's not using a VT100 at all, but
instead some emulator, which isn't doing things the VT100 way...
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread[parent not found: <bqt@update.uu.se>]
* [pups] solution for the disklabel
[not found] ` <bqt@update.uu.se>
@ 2002-01-30 18:14 ` Pete Turnbull
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Pete Turnbull @ 2002-01-30 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Jan 30, 16:03, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is*
ctrl-H,
> > shown as ^H or ^h). Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or
use
> > stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h').
>
> On a real VT100 you cannot get the delete key to generate a backspace. He
> must be pressing the backspace key, or he's not using a VT100 at all, but
> instead some emulator, which isn't doing things the VT100 way...
Of course. I've spent too long using my VT420. A real VT102 has separate
delete and backspace keys. Probably he's using some not-really-VT102
emulation in an xterm window or some emulator.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [pups] VT102 and other hardware.... was: solution for the disklabel
2002-01-30 15:03 ` Johnny Billquist
[not found] ` <bqt@update.uu.se>
@ 2002-02-04 19:27 ` lothar felten
1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: lothar felten @ 2002-02-04 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
> >
> > Maybe it wants a DEL
> character instead of
> backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H,
> > shown as ^H or ^h). Change
> it on the terminal by going
> into setup, or use
> > stty on the BSD system to
> change the delete character
> (stty del '^h').
>
> On a real VT100 you cannot
> get the delete key to
> generate a backspace. He
> must be pressing the
> backspace key, or he's not
> using a VT100 at all, but
> instead some emulator, which
> isn't doing things the VT100 way...
thanks for helping me!
i'm using a "real" vt102 box. now it works, problem was just i thought
"backspace" should behave pc-like. the del-key does erase my letters and
the backspace displays ^H. sorry but i'm just no used to this "behaviour"
of the keys.
this weekend i put a qbus serial card into the pdp, but i dont get a login
prompt on this ports: i edited /etc/ttys, the special files in /dev are
present. i'm still using the generic kernel (still not brave enough to
start configuring & compiling a new one, how long would this approx. take
on a 11/83 with 4mb? is it worth it?). on the console connected to the
cpu-board i always get a #prompt without login, is this normal?
i have a DEQNA-nic, but with the MAKEDEV script i can't make the qe0
device. i would make it myself with mknod, but wich major/minor number do i
need?
there are devices for my RL02 disks, but everytime i try to access them by
disklabel the system stops (the run light goes off). is there a way to
check if the controller is working ?
on my RQDX3-distribution panel i found a 34 pin floppy connector. i
connected two 5,25" diskdrives (pc drives, TEAC, jumpered different) they
work fine.
-- lothar
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread