From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: pat@transarc.com (Pat Barron) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:28:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: low-end vaxen and unix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000, and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to, though....). 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3. --Pat. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA17316 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:06:43 +1100 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17308 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:06:33 +1100 (EST) From: allisonp@world.std.com Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA10603; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25310; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:06:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Pat Barron wrote: > As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000, > and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The > Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never > billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you > can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to, > though....). The centronics is electrically scsi and uses the NCR scsi chip (5380) but there is nothing in the boot-diagnostic rom that supports it save for the TK50FA version that has an oddball device protocal. If you boot from floppy or RDxx disk and have a driver that supports VS200 scsi properly it can be used for expansion. There are however issues in that the hard disk interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause some performance degrdation. The port however is not for centronis printer as dec used serial interfaced printers. > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so > you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3. > > --Pat. Tha is what the socalled qasijarius project is supposed to fix. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA17348 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:13:19 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17343 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:13:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id QAA19027 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma019025; Fri, 29 Jan 99 16:13:02 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id QAA06345; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:17:12 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma006343; Fri, 29 Jan 99 21:17:08 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA04748; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:26:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:26:58 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901292126.QAA04748 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Pat Barron wrote: > As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000, > and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The > Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never > billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you > can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to, > though....). Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked. > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so > you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3. Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list. If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA17536 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:42:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.0.213]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17525 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:42:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root at panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail2.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id QAA01213 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id QAA03883 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote: > As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000, > and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it. The > Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never > billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you > can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to, > though....). > > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so > you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3. As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. The people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck. There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models, and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. It will also run 4.3BSD binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix branched from 4.2, not 4.3. SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60 work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent. For the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries may help a bit. Hope this helps. THor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17760 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:08:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17754 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:07:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from kcwellsc at localhost) by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18899; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Wellsch Message-Id: <199901292207.RAA18899 at math.uwaterloo.ca> Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix To: allisonp at world.std.com Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: from "allisonp at world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380 both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device. -- Ken > [...] There are however issues in that the hard disk > interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause > some performance degrdation. [...] > > Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17998 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:36:06 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17989 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:35:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id RAA19178 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma019176; Fri, 29 Jan 99 17:35:50 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id RAA06838; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:39:57 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma006836; Fri, 29 Jan 99 22:39:52 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA04815; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901292249.RAA04815 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work beautifully. > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models, > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as diskless peering-at toy. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join our team. > It will also run 4.3BSD > binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I > ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds > whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix > branched from 4.2, not 4.3. The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant, since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18025 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:38:19 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18019 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:38:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id RAA19184 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma019182; Fri, 29 Jan 99 17:38:02 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id RAA06860; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:42:12 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma006858; Fri, 29 Jan 99 22:42:10 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA04823; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:52:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:52:00 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901292252.RAA04823 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Ken Wellsch wrote: > On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380 > both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer. You then have to > pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory. I believe the Lance > chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device. Correct. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18090 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:54:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk (exim at moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk [131.111.24.35]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18085 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:54:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost.cam.ac.uk ([127.0.0.1] helo=moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk ident=afrb2) by moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 106Mo6-0001es-00 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:34 +0000 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST." <199901292249.RAA04815 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000 From: Alan F R Bain Message-Id: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Michael Sokolov wrote: >A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that >you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as >diskless peering-at toy. I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct. All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. I don't think PUPS is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist. >4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will >this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join >our team. > >> It will also run 4.3BSD >> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will. I >> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds >> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix >> branched from 4.2, not 4.3. > >The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant, >since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal >maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone >else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and I know I am' arguments are just childish. To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest. It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel, the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened, but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill in some of the details. Alan Bain Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18255 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:56:43 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18250 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:56:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id SAA19356 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma019354; Fri, 29 Jan 99 18:56:26 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id TAA07298; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:00:37 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma007296; Sat, 30 Jan 99 00:00:33 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA04883; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:10:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:10:23 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901300010.TAA04883 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Alan F R Bain wrote: > I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information > provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct. > All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware > is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that > unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model. How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always always mean NetBSD/vax. > I don't think PUPS > is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist. It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling into the claws of that predator. > To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the > history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV > and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest. > It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel, > the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX; Warren's > graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened, > but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were > (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features > etc.). I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill > in some of the details. First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix. Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T, before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX. In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley. 2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA18377 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:50:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18372 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:50:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from panix7.panix.com (root at panix7.nyc.access.net [166.84.0.232]) by mail1.panix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/PanixM1.3) with ESMTP id TAA07147 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix7.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id TAA08049 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: <199901292249.RAA04815 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901292249.RAA04815 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc. > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work > beautifully. > > > There is a reasonable alternative. NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models, > > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on. > > A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that > you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as > diskless peering-at toy. That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too. Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you happen to disagree? Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed? Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18413 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:07:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18408 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:07:40 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA09808 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901300109.MAA09808 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: low-end vaxen and unix In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942 at rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999 7:50:36 pm" To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Thor Lancelot Simon: > On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: >> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that >>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as > > diskless peering-at toy. > > That's nonsense. As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly > responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines > in question. It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they > can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last > time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too. > > Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply > express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you > happen to disagree? > > Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can > mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed? > Thor Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings. This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all have different tastes. So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18468 for pups-liszt; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:40 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA18463 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:19:32 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA09827 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901300121.MAA09827 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'? In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999 7:10:23 pm" To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as > opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't > really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley. >2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as > I'm concerned, it doesn't exist. I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names. Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention, I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed. Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members of the original CSRG. Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out, rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do not deserve ridicule. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA20270 for pups-liszt; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:39:33 +1100 (EST) Received: from nose.cita.utoronto.ca (nose.cita.utoronto.ca [128.100.76.157]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA20265 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 02:39:24 +1100 (EST) From: norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca Message-Id: <199901301539.CAA20265 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Old UNIX file system formats To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:38:44 -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the Seventh Edition: http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome. (It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)