* PDP-11, VAX, etc. hardware in Italy or near
[not found] <199710081809.EAA11819@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
@ 1997-10-09 16:20 ` S. Sigala
1997-11-03 19:09 ` SCO Free OpenServer and UnixWare S. Sigala
0 siblings, 1 reply; 2+ messages in thread
From: S. Sigala @ 1997-10-09 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi, I'm interested in buying old hardware like PDP-11, VAX,
Sun, etc., if possible near Italy (or in E.U.). Can someone
subscribed to this list suggest me [someone|a company|a university] that
sells this type of hardware, please?
Regards,
Sandro
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199710092300.JAA02541 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 Xenix
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:00:59 +1000 (EST)
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I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-11
Xenix?
Warren
----- Forwarded message from Frank Wortner -----
From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner@prodigy.net>
To: <wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Request to Join PUPS
I've sent off email to a friend of mine who preserved some materials from a
now-defunct software company we used to work for. He *might* have that
tape. I regret not keeping track of it, but fifteen years have elapsed
since I last booted it.
Too bad. PDP-11 Xenix had a number of nice features.
o It was based on the Seventh Edition.
o It ran on everything from a PDP-11/23 on up.
o It could simulate split instruction and data space on non I&D machines.
(*)
o It had a complete shutdown procedure (an elaborate /etc/shutdown script)
o The kernel was delivered as an archive library (".a" file), so you could
reconfigure without source.
Perhaps someone at SCO (or Microsoft) may still have a tape of it. Most
software firms archive their products in secure vaults, so it might still
exist in some warehouse.
(*) The scheme involved paging the instructions while the data remained
resident. The first 8K of the program was always resident and contained a
jump table and supporting software. The next 8K held whatever instructions
were executing at the time, while the remaining 48K was reserved for the
data and stack segments. Building a simulated I&D executable required the
user to link once as a pure executable, once as a split executable, and
finally running both executables through a program which built the final
simulated split I&D executable. The compiler had an option ('-j' if I
recall correctly) that performed these three links automatically.
Sorry for the rambling note, but I'm just a bit overwhelmed by nostalgia.
;-)
Frank
----- End of forwarded message from Frank Wortner -----
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199710100058.AA13113 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
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<I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-1
<Xenix?
<
< Warren
Well yes, sorta. It's on the net, John Wilson has it on ftp.dbit.com. The
however is it's for the PRO350/380 systems. I don't know if it can be moved
to more standard PDP-11 configurations.
Allison
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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 20:20:01 -0700
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
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To: Allison J Parent <allisonp at world.std.com>
CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
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I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is
anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It
was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO
collected everything else.)
There is, however, VENIX (no commercial relation to XENIX other than a
common parent) on ftp.update.uu.se. This version of XENIX is for the
DEC Pro350/380, which is, essentially, a PDP-11. There was also a VENIX
for "real" PDP-11s.
Dave
Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> <I just received this email from Frank Wortner. Anybody have a copy of PDP-1
> <Xenix?
> <
> < Warren
>
> Well yes, sorta. It's on the net, John Wilson has it on ftp.dbit.com. The
> however is it's for the PRO350/380 systems. I don't know if it can be moved
> to more standard PDP-11 configurations.
>
> Allison
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199710100412.AA13660 at world.std.com>
To: djenner at halcyon.com
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Dave,
<I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is
<anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It
<was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO
<collected everything else.)
Your right, drain beth, err brain death. Sometimes all those *nixs are the
same to me. Especially after configuring three vaxen for VMS and installing
it. I know heresy but, Netbsd has proven uninstallable here on all four
systems.
<DEC Pro350/380, which is, essentially, a PDP-11. There was also a VENIX
<for "real" PDP-11s.
Well venix on the pro350 runs far better than POS! In fact it's the only
*nix running here as even slackware has had problems (bad CD!).
That however is news! Is there a version of venix for "real" PDP-11s? on
the net?
Allison
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:33 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp at world.std.com>
Cc: djenner at halcyon.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix
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On Fri, Oct 10, 1997 at 12:12:45AM -0400, Allison J Parent wrote:
> Dave,
>
> <I don't think John has it at ftp.dbit.com. And I doubt that XENIX is
> <anywhere on the net. I don't even know if there was a PDP-11 XENIX. (It
> <was originally MS, afterall. They "sold" it to SCO way back, before SCO
> <collected everything else.)
I thought SCO developed XENIX right from the word go, only in those
days they belonged to Microsoft.
> Your right, drain beth, err brain death. Sometimes all those *nixs are the
> same to me. Especially after configuring three vaxen for VMS and installing
> it. I know heresy but, Netbsd has proven uninstallable here on all four
> systems.
Interesting. What was the problem?
Greg
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From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner@prodigy.net>
To: "PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:57:18 -0400
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Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to
explain.
Way back when --- about 1981 or 82 --- I worked for a small (now defunct)
software company. We owned 2 PDP-11/23s. Initially, we ran a distribution
of the Sixth Edition on them. That came from a company in New York ---
that's where I am geographically, BTW --- called Yourdon. The system was
called UV6.
After a while, we decided to upgrade to V7. At the time, we had begun a
relationship with another (now defunct) firm called Lifeboat Associates
(also in New York, later in Tarrytown, NY). They distributed microcomputer
software, principally CP/M-based. They were a Microsoft distributor.
Microsoft had just started Unix development at the time. Lifeboat sold us a
V7 system: Microsoft PDP-11 Xenix. I know it was Microsoft because the
tape lables said so, and I remember that the line printer printed release
notes contained a banner page that indicated that they came from Microsoft's
DEC 20(!) (cheerfully named "Microsoft Heating Plant").
PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features.
Processor support included all models of PDP-11 with MMUs: 23s, 34s, 40s,
45s, 55s, 60s, and 70s. It had split I&D space emulation --- borrowed, I
believe from 2.something BSD. That emulation required a grand total of
three(!) link passes, but the compiler driver was modified to do this
automatically if you specified the "-j" option. Instead of source, the
kernel was delivered mostly as .o files and .a libraries, so you could
reconfigure the OS without source. The reconfigure programs just spat out
some assembly language and C "glue" that you compiled and linked with the .o
and .a files. In fact, this was pretty much automated. The system also
had a rather extensive /etc./shutdown shell script which calmly and
thoroughly brought the system to a quiescent state and could optionally
reboot or halt it. Although the OS was pretty big --- I find it amazing
that I thought of it as "big" ;-) --- you could, with some effort build a
boot floppy on a RX02 diskette. That could run exactly 1 (one) process ---
the RX02 system had *no* swap space. I remember system recovery sessions
in which I constantly had to boot the floppy, see the shell prompt, and
then "exec fsck" and watch as fsck finished its run, and init respawned the
shell!
Anyhow, I know I *used to have* the release notes and I *might* have had
the tape, but both, sadly, are probably lost. I was wondering if anyone
else might have seen or, even better, still has a tape of this rare
version of V7. Perhaps there's an archive at Microsoft or SCO that harbors
a tape. Most software firms do have some sort of policy about placing
products in escrow with a third party. Maybe this still exists. If not,
that's OK. If SCO is kind enough to allow source licensing to individuals
for noncommercial use, then this largely becomes a moot issue.
Full source V7 (or even better 2BSD) is probably a more "interesting" system
from a hobbyist or preservationist point of view, particularly if you're
like me and don't have or care to own actual PDP-11 hardware. I'm quite
happy to run John Wilson's and Bob Supnick's wonderful emulator programs
with whatever software I can obtain. They let me have the PDP-11 models I
worked on (23, 34, 45) as well as those I'd like to have had (70) without
the hassle and expense of maintaining the actual hardware.
BTW, if John or Bob reads this list, l'd like to say "Thank you" to both
of them. Also thanks to Warren for his work preserving the old Unix
software. It's a great deal of fun to see old "friends" again, and I think
it will be just as much fun to see software and "hardware" combinations that
I didn't have access to in the "good old days." Thanks also to SCO for
binary licenses for these "historic" systems; I hope that they will be able
to license source code in the near future.
Sorry for the long ramble and thanks for reading!
Frank
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:55:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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To: fwortner at prodigy.net, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Xenix (LONG)
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Howdy -
> From: "Frank Wortner" <fwortner at prodigy.net>
> Since I'm the one that started this --- albeit indirectly --- let me try to
And I hate to see a fellow talk to himself without interruption ;-)
> PD.-11 Xenix was essentially V7, but it had a few added features.
> Processor support included all models of PDP-11 with MMUs: 23s, 34s, 40s,
I remember (not terribly fondly) running V7 on an 11/23. We hacked
in an overlay scheme to the kernel (but not user programs). Just
enough resources to run 1 user and a couple processes - do an "ls" and
the shell got swapped out, when 'ls' finished the shell would get
swapped back in. Wheee! ;)
> 45s, 55s, 60s, and 70s. It had split I&D space emulation --- borrowed, I
> believe from 2.something BSD. That emulation required a grand total of
Not having used Xenix I'd never heard the term "split I&D space
emulation". What we hacked in to V7 and BSD later implemented
was an even older concept: overlays.
2.9 was the first version I know of that had 'overlay' support. The
overlays were memory resident and switching between them was done
by flipping MMU registers.
It is (present tense since 2.11BSD uses the same method today) done
with a single link phase (no "-j" option or multiple link edits). In
2.9 there was a limit of 7 overlay segments plus the base segment. Later
on (the 1985 update to 2.9) the limit was increased to 15 overlays
which has proven to be adequate since then. For the kernel the overlays
could only be 8kb (1 page register) but user mode programs could have
larger (but still multiple of 8kb) overlays.
In 2.9 there was a separate libc.a that you did need to link with
because the callframe had an extra word (the overlay number) and
'csv, cret' had a couple extra instructions to switch overlays. Later
(2.10 and up) the callframe was changed to always have the extra word
This made life easier (at the expense of an extra 3microseconds per
function call) by not having to maintain/build two versions of all
the libraries.
> three(!) link passes, but the compiler driver was modified to do this
> automatically if you specified the "-j" option. Instead of source, the
> kernel was delivered mostly as .o files and .a libraries, so you could
A multiphase link IS currently used to build the 2.11 networking though.
The networking code (4.3BSD's TCP/IP stack) runs in supervisor mode.
The kernel, at boot time, loads /netnix into supervisor space. The
/netnix image is built in a similar manner to what was mentioned for
Xenix's emulated I&D space - first build the unix image (with undefined
references to the networking code), then build the netnix image
(with undefined references to the kernel code), then cross reference
the two images for undefineds and create .s stub files to satisfy
the undefineds. Assemble the two .s files and then link unix with
d.netnix.o and netnix with d.unix.o and voila a kernel and an image
it can load into supervisor space.
> reboot or halt it. Although the OS was pretty big --- I find it amazing
> that I thought of it as "big" ;-) --- you could, with some effort build a
Even V7 had trouble fitting on a non split I/D machine. The problem
is that the kernel has to map the I/O page which removes an extra
MMU page from being used for data. Then the 'u' area needs a page
(for the kernel stack and per process context). And you need a page
to perform copyin/copyout with (and to map the buffer cache if that
has been moved external to the kernel) - that leaves only 40kb for
everything else (and on a nonsplit I/D machine with overlays you'd
need two or three pages for the base segment and an overlay, that leaves
just 2 pages or 16kb for all the data).
> Full source V7 (or even better 2BSD) is probably a more "interesting" system
> from a hobbyist or preservationist point of view, particularly if you're
> like me and don't have or care to own actual PDP-11 hardware. I'm quite
An 11/73 takes up less space than some PC tower cases and uses about
the same amount of electricity.
> happy to run John Wilson's and Bob Supnick's wonderful emulator programs
> with whatever software I can obtain. They let me have the PDP-11 models I
I can't speak for John's emulator (only runs on top of DOS and my
place is a MS-free zone ;)) but I have booted up 2.11BSD under Bob's.
Only went to the single user state and ran a couple simple commands.
Seems to work ok that far, but 'vi' doesn't run right - I suspect it's
something to do with overlaid programs flipping MMU registers about
but haven't had the time to look into it further (besides which I've
a 11/73 and a 11/93 to use).
> worked on (23, 34, 45) as well as those I'd like to have had (70) without
> the hassle and expense of maintaining the actual hardware.
A Q-bus system such as an 11/83 combines the best of both worlds - it's
got the address space and the speed (cpuwise) of a 70 but the
convenience of no UNIBUS map (like the 45). Maintenance thus far
over the last 6 years has consisted of replacing an M8192 when the
cache developed a parity error.
Well, I suppose I should get back to work before the boss wanders by
and sees me having fun instead of getting his work done ;-)
Steven Schultz
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 2+ messages in thread
* SCO Free OpenServer and UnixWare
1997-10-09 16:20 ` PDP-11, VAX, etc. hardware in Italy or near S. Sigala
@ 1997-11-03 19:09 ` S. Sigala
0 siblings, 0 replies; 2+ messages in thread
From: S. Sigala @ 1997-11-03 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi, sorry if this is off topic, but... have anyone ordered/tested
the Free versions of SCO OpenServer and/or UnixWare? Are them interesting
enough? (I'm currently playing with both Linux and FreeBSD, and
since we are talking about the UNIX PDP source license from a lot
of time, i wish to know if these Free UNIX versions contain some
interesting/useful UNIX source code...)
Regards,
Sandro
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199711240248.NAA11909 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 Unix Source Licenses - Status
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:48:36 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
We've had a number of new subscribers to the PDP-11 UNIX mailing
list, so I'd like to welcome them to the list, and say that questions about
these old systems (and the hardware) are always welcome here, so fire away!
I mailed Dion Johnson at SCO again re the license issue, with no reply.
I tried some other SCO contacts, and got this back from Peter Laytham:
Unfortunately this is always a busy time for SCO folk - September is
our end of financial year, which means October and November are given
over to planning and regional kick-off events including training
(which Dion gets involved in).
If you can bear with us, we are both submitting your case to the
powers that be within SCO. However SCO has a fair bit of other work
to cope with keeping the evil empire at bay and rolling out some
significant new technologies (SVr5, Tarantella and two clustering
products - reliantHA and Non-stop for UnixWare) which is slowing down
non critical decisions such as this one.
Cheers
Peter
So it looks like we're in for some more waiting.
Sorry for the lack of change in status,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199711240320.OAA12125 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11/04 serial pinout (fwd)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:20:46 +1100 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Nickolai Zeldovich -----
[Nickolai, a message posted to the vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 newsgroups
should also get some answers for you! -- Warren]
From: Nickolai Zeldovich <kolya at zepa.net>
Hi,
I was wondering if you could answer a simple (or maybe not, I'm not all
that sure) question about PDP machines for me. I managed to get a
PDP-11/04, I believe, but it had no console with it. All it has on the
back is a RS232-looking plug with some unknown to me pinout. Would you be
so kind as to give me some information or pointers how to hook up any sort
of an input/output device to it?
-Thank You.
Nickolai Zeldovich.
--
+-------------------------+----------------------+--------------------------+
| Nickolai Zeldovich | ZEPANET | UCF Math Department |
| http://kolya.zepa.net/ | http://www.zepa.net/ | http://www.math.ucf.edu/ |
| nickolai at kolya.zepa.net | nickolai at zepa.net | nickolai at math.ucf.edu |
+-------------------------+----------------------+--------------------------+
----- End of forwarded message from Nickolai Zeldovich -----
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199711242237.JAA23316 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Last Email from SCO - new license wording
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:37:00 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
I've just received some email from Dion Johnson at SCO re the PDP-11
UNIX source licenses. Apparently he's been away from work (holidays?). He
says:
I have a new cut of the proposed license
from our NJ Legal folks. I compare with past versions
and see what it has. I know the 32V was added to the
list of licensed versions (good). Not sure if the
other problems were fixed. I will get back
to you before the holiday weekend coming.
As always, I'll let you know things as I receive them.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712042206.JAA04976 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP 11 Discs - UK readers please
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:06:53 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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Can any of our UK PDP-11 people help this guy out? I don't know if the
disks contain Unix or other stuff.
Warren
----- Forwarded message from Roger Chan -----
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:31:07 +0000
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
From: Roger Chan <roger.chan@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: PDP 11 Discs
Dear Warren,
I was hoping you might be able to help me regarding some PDP 11 discs
which we have here, and wish to extract data from.
The discs are labelled:
2315 Disc cartridge
12 Sector
DRI Part number 592
We have a number of these discs containg data which we would like to
have converted into a format which can easily be read by a PC (ASCII, or
whatever.)
However, as you can tell by my e mail address, I'm in the UK and I was
wondering if you knew of anyone/ any group in Britain who could help me
with this task. If you do, I would be very grateful if you forwarded this
message on to them.
Thank you very much,
Roger Chan
Dept. of Visual Science
Institute of Ophthalmology
University College London
London
EC1V 9EL
UK
----- End of forwarded message from Roger Chan -----
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Message-ID: <34871ACD.4ACC at usa.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:04:13 -0800
From: uko@kortedala.educ.goteborg.se
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I just bought an 11/23 with RL02 and i have litle problems setting it up
If anybody feels for helping please mail me at
mario.jelica at usa.net
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712050225.NAA05350 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
To: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:25:54 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971204172645.25398B-100000 at rio.com> from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 05:35:12 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Erin Corliss:
>
> My roommate and I have a PDP-11/23 Plus that has no disk or tape drives
> and no controller board for either. I've been able to boot Unix version 5
> on an emulator here, and from what I've read, this operating system should
> be able to boot on the PDP-11/23. The operating system has a kernel in
> the root directory called "unix", which is about 23 kilobytes long. I am
> trying to set the computer up to boot from a serial port which will be
> connected to a Linux machine, which will simulate an RK05 disk drive.
> Does anyone know where the low level routines for reading and writing on
> an RK series drive are found? Are they built into the kernel or are they
> in some separate device driver or module? Also, I need to know what
> memory locations are used as registers by the RK05 drive and what commands
> can be given to it, so if anyone has spec sheets for it....
Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the
kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going
to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell.
If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be
able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+.
I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives.
Does anybody else have other suggestions???
Best wishes,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712050330.OAA05624 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
To: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:01 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971204185633.27884A-100000 at rio.com> from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 07:14:18 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Erin Corliss:
>
>
> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the
> > kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going
> > to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell.
>
> I was looking at a disassembly of the boot sector on one of the disk
> images I downloaded and from what I could see the software talks to the
> hardware through memory addresses in the area of 177xxx, in a similar
> fashion to the way Apple II's and Amiga's talk to their hardware. If I
> can get information about what addresses and values are used to control
> the RK05, I think it would be possible to gut out some non-essential part
> of the kernel, the tape drive controller for example, and replace it with
> code that sends and receives RK05 commands and data through the serial
> port. I would then search through the kernel and replace all of the
> references to the RK05's registers to BSR's that went to appropriate
> places in my serial port routines.... I've performed similar kludging on
> PC's and Amigas, so I'm pretty certain I can manage it if I have the right
> information to start with.
>
> > If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be
> > able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+.
>
> That would be easier...
> Eugene, Oregon, USA
>
> > I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives.
>
> Any chance I could get a peek?
Eric, I'll put you on the PUPS mailing list so you'll get any replies from
the other members. I'll try and scan in the RK05 docs and put them up via
ftp for you.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712050433.PAA05757 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
To: Bob.Supnik at digital.com (Bob Supnik)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:33:37 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920656D2F5 at excmso.mso.dec.com> from Bob Supnik at "Dec 4, 97 11:26:15 pm"
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In article by Bob Supnik:
> Warren,
>
> The RK05 is implicitly documented in the sources to the PDP-11
> simulator, if that would help.
Yes, I hadn't thought of that. Other places are the Lions commentary,
and the Unix source of course.
Thanks for the reply Bob.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712050449.PAA05787 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:13 +1100 (EST)
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Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a
tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I
actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once.
The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The
other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by
commands sent over the serial line.
The idea is that a person can hand-enter the boot code to retrieve the
`boot block' from the simulated disk drive. From there, the bootstrap
can retrieve the Unix kernel, which can then use the simulated drive as
the root filesystem. The user can then log in, use mkfs to build a filesystem
on a real disk drive, and install a suitable Unix kernel without requiring a
tape drive.
The protocol used must be simple enough that bootstraps can be entered
manually - at least to get the boot block from the second computer.
Minimalist Protocol
-------------------
4-byte commands are sent from the PDP-11 to the other computer. The
command structure is:
Byte 0: What command to perform
Byte 1: On which remote drive to perform the command
Byte 2: Low-order bits of block number
Byte 3: High-order bits of block number
Blocks are 512 bytes. The commands allow access to 65,536 blocks (32Megs)
on 256 virtual disk drives. Of course, an alternate view could be 65,536
on 256 platters, giving 8G of disk space.
Commands are: 0x00 NOP Do nothing
0x01 READ Read specified block
0x02 WRITE Write specified block
NOP: The second computer does nothing in response. However, this can be
used to determine if the PDP-11 is actually sending commands.
READ: The second computer returns 512 bytes which contains the requested
block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details.
WRITE: The PDP-11 sends 512 bytes which contains the requested block.
There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. The second
computer does nothing in response.
Drawbacks: Line noise is gonna really cause havoc. Only one command can be
pending, as the PDP-11 has no idea what block is what when it comes
back from the second computer.
Advantages: Should be easy to write bootstrap and /usr/mdec software, and a
kernel-level device driver should be very easy. Altering v5, v6, v7
2.9BSD and 2.11BSD should be straight-forward.
Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding
commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.?
Cheers all,
Warren
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Message-ID: <34874091.3F778FE9 at corliss.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:45:21 +0000
From: Erin Corliss <erin@corliss.com>
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> The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11
port. The
> other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are
acessible by
> commands sent over the serial line.
Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is
received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data?
Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How
many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11?
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:51:33 +0000
To: erin at corliss.com
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From: Robin Birch <robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if
something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an
additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line
once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as
a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc
access it has a couple of good thigs to it:
1) The only stuff that has to be loaded over the serial line without
the benefit of lots of code that can do error checking is the initial
standalone loader.
2) The standalone loader can then treat the serial port as a tape drive
which is a relatively simple process as far as the loader is concerned
and so you would only need a driver that looked like a TS11 (say) but
talked to a serial port.
3) The PC end would then just have a simple prog that would treat the
files on the PC as tape files which would make shipping stuff around
easy as we could then do this as dump or tar forms which could be just
ftp'd etc from archives.
It would be slow but it would get things going quite simply.
Ideas + comments please?
Robin
Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199712051059.AA16527 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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<Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is
<received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data?
Yes or you can poll.
<Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How
<many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11?
Disks are 8bit (2 8bit, 1 word = 16bits) and the DL can be set to send
7 or 8 bits and with or with out parity.
Allison
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From: Neil Johnson <neil@skatter.usask.ca>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
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It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives
and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better
choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though.
Neil
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712051653.AA01585 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 (PST)
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> Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a
> tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I
> actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once.
>
> The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The
> other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by
> commands sent over the serial line.
> [Protocol description]
> Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding
> commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.?
Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used
to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port.
Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already
being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could
be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers
already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example,
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199712070415.PAA06858 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST)
Cc: erin at corliss.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc at falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5, 97 08:51:33 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Robin Birch:
> This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if
> something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an
> additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line
> once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as
> a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc
> access it has a couple of good thigs to it:
I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the
disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11
end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some
time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I
can port it up to v7 and 2BSD.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5
To: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST)
Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, zomad at rio.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287 at skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec 5, 97 10:40:07 am"
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In article by Neil Johnson:
> It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives
> and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better
> choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though.
Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't
present too many problems. I hope :-)
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd)
To: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585 at alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5, 97 08:53:53 am"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used
> to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port.
> Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already
> being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could
> be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers
> already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example,
>
> ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58
>
> Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could
hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look.
Thanks Tim,
Warren
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712070517.AA22184 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST)
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> How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could
> hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary.
Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
bootstraps.
Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap
PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58.
The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as
simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say,
RL01/02 and RX02 drivers.
One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58
protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is
flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to
allow anyone to do that to themselves :-)
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103@cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <9712071718.ZM1055 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
> Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> bootstraps.
Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11
Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only
tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too
old to include 11/53 and 11/93).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712071805.AA01939 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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> > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
> > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> > bootstraps.
>
> Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't
Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or
a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you
have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or
elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll
notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the
KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...)
My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through
"Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a "?"):
DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn
DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02
DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01
DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02
DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58
DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05
MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81
MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05
XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET
NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11
NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E
NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F
If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then
the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only
auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the
boot menu.
> and according to my microPDP-11
> Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only
> tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too
> old to include 11/53 and 11/93).
Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system
to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside,
of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time!
I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a
perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My
point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to
them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing
the wheel.
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: "Pete Turnbull <pnt103@cs.york.ac.uk>" <pete@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:43 +0000
In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca>
"Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05)
References: <9712071805.AA01939 at alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware.
> > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the
> > > bootstraps.
> >
> > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't
> Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or
Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not
relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-)
My point
was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs.
I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs)
because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a
maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems.
> Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system
> to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-).
Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-)
> The downside,
> of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time!
But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and
not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even
than that).
And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712080014.AA24774 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 (PST)
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> Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not
> relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-)
> My point
> was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs.
>
> I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs)
> because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a
> maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems.
OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is
Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to
have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an
excerpt from it:
*begin excerpt*
+============+======================================================+
| | |
| BOOT | DESCRIPTION |
| DEVICE | |
| | |
+============+======================================================+
| BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM |
| | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU |
+------------+------------------------------------------------------+
| uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU |
+============+======================================================+
Page 2
BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE |
| | | | | | |
| | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. |
| | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4|
| |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4|
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| RX01 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX02 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-C | | X | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-D | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RK05 | X | X | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX50 | | | X | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD51 | | | X | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD52 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TSV05 | | | X | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TK25 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RC25 | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DEQNA | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-E | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-F | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DUV11 | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DPV11 | | | X | | |
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
Page 3
BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I |
| | | | | | |
| | part no | | |available |available |
| | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU |
| | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only|
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
| RX01 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX02 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TU58 | X | X | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RL01/2 | X | | X | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-C | | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| MRV11-D | | | | | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RK05 | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RX50 | X | | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD51 | X | | X | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RD52 | X | | | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TSV05 | X | | | | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| TK25 | X | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3|
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DEQNA | X | | | X | X |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-E | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DLV11-F | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DUV11 | | | | X | |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
| DPV11 | | | | | |
+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+
Page 4
NOTES:
------
(1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A
chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58
chip that can be added to the board:
Rev O:
Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2
Does NOT support:
DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices
TU58 ROM:
Part number 23-126F3
Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be
Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as
a bootable device.
*end excerpt*
It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58
hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and
RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in
BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-)
Tim.
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad@rio.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184 at alph02.triumf.ca>
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On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58
> protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is
> flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to
> allow anyone to do that to themselves :-)
Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
kind of a freak show act....
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav@bsdserver.tek-star.net>
To: Erin Corliss <zomad at rio.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000 at rio.com>
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote:
> Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
> PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
> do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
> I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
> was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
> page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
> kind of a freak show act....
Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show!
I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in
racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it...
(Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with
software? [Loads of 8" floppies])
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad@rio.com>
To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.971208113224.9085A-100000 at bsdserver.tek-star.net>
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
> Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show!
Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells
tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed
babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who
draws the crowd. 8^)
> I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in
> racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it...
I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them
lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them
into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the
projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to
modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can
dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new
tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on
the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next
one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they
both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase
the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering,
inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use
multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic
dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9712082316.AA10544 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
To: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss)
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971208064741.29193B-100000 at rio.com> from "Erin Corliss" at Dec 8, 97 07:03:34 am
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> Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put
> PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to
> do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What
> I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I
> was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web
> page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as
> kind of a freak show act....
Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games
through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11
is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's
even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03
this way.
Tim.
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:17:02 -0500
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199712090117.AA23476 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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<dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
<that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
<user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday.
Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s.
Allison
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:21:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Erin Corliss <zomad@rio.com>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp at world.std.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
In-Reply-To: <199712090117.AA23476 at world.std.com>
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On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Allison J Parent wrote:
>
> <dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus
> <that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent
> <user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11.
>
> The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday.
> Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s.
Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of
course.)
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal
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<Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of
<course.)
Maybe real Unix but I've deleted ultrix in favor of VMS! Maybe NetBSD
will sort out some of the problems.
Allison
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Message-ID: <34B06E4B.20CDBAA at corliss.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:23:23 -0800
From: Erin Corliss <erin@corliss.com>
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Hello. I have a free operating system directory at:
http://rio.com/~zomad
I have a link to the PUPS home page for PDP-11 Unix & was wondering if
you can add a link to my page.
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199801300440.PAA04976 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:50 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
Last year I mentioned the idea of installing PDP-11 UNIX over a
serial line, for those people who have real PDP-11s but no tape drives.
I've written the code to do this over the past few days, and its time to
pass it to someone who actually has a PDP-11 and no tape drive! The code
is of course alpha-quality, but I'm using a PC running John Wilson's Ersatz
to install 7th Edition on a simulated RK05 right now.
I need someone who has a:
+ PDP-11 which _will_ run 7th Edition
+ Spare RK05, RP03, RP04, RP05 or RP06 disk
+ A DL/KL-11 serial port at vector 0176500 (i.e 2nd unit)
+ An RS-232 null modem with hardware handshaking lines
+ A machine running a 32-bit Unix to host the other end of the
serial connection
+ Spare time, and a tendency for masochism :-)
Someone who also has a PDP-11 running v7, and a source license would
be a bonus, as they might be able to help with the debugging.
I'm at the point where I can bring in the `boot' file (record 0) off the
simulated UNIX install tape, load and run cat, mkfs, icheck and restor.
I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''),
which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from restor.
My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill the
10,240 request, but still problems.
Once the code is solid, I'd like to add other disks (RL02s etc.), and write
a user-mode program to read from the tape once UNIX has booted off disk.
This will allow other tape formats (e.g tar) to be read in.
If anybody would be willing to participate in getting this stuff to work
well, could they e-mail me next week?!
Thanks in advance,
Warren wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199801301446.AA19117 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
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<I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''
<which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto
<My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th
<10,240 request, but still problems.
Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was
a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds
above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction
(read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow
the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send
a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to
overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You
may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all
that fast and OS overhead can make that longer.
Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of
the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained
rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between.
If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at
38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing
processing to write (via file system) to disk and recieving data at the
same time.
Allison
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199801302206.JAA07375 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:42 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199801301446.AA19117 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jan 30, 98 09:46:31 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Allison J Parent:
>
> <I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''
> <which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from resto
> <My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill th
> <10,240 request, but still problems.
>
> Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer.
I found the problem - my dump image was corrupt :-). I now have a clean
v7 dump of /, and there are no complaints from restor.
I've had a few people volunteer to try out the code. I'll clean it up,
finish off the docs, and put it up for ftp in a few days, with an email
on the PUPS mailing list on how to retrieve it.
Cheers,
Warren
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199801310536.VAA23209 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
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Hi -
I thought I'd chime in with my experience with "high" speed serial
transfers...
> From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
>
> Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was
> a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds
> above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction
The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with
something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but
useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they
were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device
to be used while the system was up and doing other stuff the TU58 was
quite poor.
I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work
reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first
time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to
disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt.
> (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow
> the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send
> a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to
> overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You
The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure)
had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
> may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all
> that fast and OS overhead can make that longer.
Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
baud serial line I'd think.
> Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of
> the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained
Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips
(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
286.
The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems
all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk
interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough
that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun.
> rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between.
> If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at
> 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing
If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high
serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a
kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the
data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are
that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is
lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over
9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to
make its way to disk.
Steven Schultz
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199801311818.AA26294 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
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<From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
<The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with
<something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but
<useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they
<were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device
The tu58 also knows MRSP but the host still has to buffer a 128(plus
wrapper) packet in one blast. It's assumption is that the host has
plenty of ram and a suitable buffer should be no problem at most data
rates. Call it a design error. It's also something that has to be dealt
with in all cases of serial communication.
As boot device, I used to take the average 750 console tape and rearrange
it and on average cut the load time by 60% or more. Seeks are slow being
30 seconds end to end. The fewer the better also the ordder of files can
make a difference.
I use it to boot a PDT11/130 and also an 11/23 in a BA11va (four slot
box). and it's accept able IF the files are in the best order for access.
<I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work
<reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first
<time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to
<disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt.
I have some data and the problem was on the 11/44 console side. It could
not keep up with the 9600 baud data from the tu58.
<The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
<something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure)
<had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
<the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
<machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the
driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.
<Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
<interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
<baud serial line I'd think.
they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes and the 550 it's
either 16 or 32 bytes. That's a whole lot of time before you must
service it and then there is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind
it.
<Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips
<(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
<286.
No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.
My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is
real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not
ack'd.
You don't need a lot of mips to recieve data at 9600 and put it in a
buffer for later use. Coding a routine to do it reliably is sometimes
not as easy as it may look. Also coding in HLL (even C) can add overhead
not anticipated and slows execution. the problem in most PDP-11s is the
serial buffer in ram is rarely 140 bytes (data plus wrapper) so that 1mS
you have then includes the whole file system and that takes a lot of mips
to keep up with.
<The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems
<all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk
<interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough
<that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun.
That would do it. Try using a DH or DZ interface as they have a silo
and can sustain higher rates.
<If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high
<serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a
<kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the
<data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are
Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right
my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.
<that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is
<lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over
<9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to
<make its way to disk.
The serial TU58 however does not have hardware flow control though it can
be hacked on to the board. (hint inhibit the TX empty interrupt to the
8085.) FYI the PDT11/130 got around this by using a parallel interface
tu58. The parallel interfaced tu58 cannot send a byte until the receiving
system take the last one.
At one time to prove a point I did do a hacked up tu58 with hardware
flow control and a matching DLV card and ran it at 38.4, the performance
was impressive even under heavy RSX11 loading. DEC did not do this as it
would be a major redesign/requal of the product. They did know the
problem well however.
The key is look at interupt latency. PDP-11s are OK but when you add
something like burst mode DMA where the CPU can be off the buss
effectively for significant periods of time there can be performance
hits.
Allison
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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Allison J Parent <allisonp at world.std.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
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On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
>> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure)
>> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
>> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
>> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
>
> I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the
> driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.
Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high
async interrupt performance.
>> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
>> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
>> baud serial line I'd think.
>
> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes
The 16540 has only one byte buffer.
> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.
The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.
> That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there
> is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it.
That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is
probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k
interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer,
and I think the printer is the limiting factor there.
>
>> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips
>> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
>> 286.
>
> No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
> the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
> In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.
>
> My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
> are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is
> real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not
> ack'd.
Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys.
> Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right
> my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.
Ah.
Greg
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199802010420.AA07172 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
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<> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes
<
<The 16540 has only one byte buffer.
Oops mixed it op with a compatable hybrid...
<
<> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.
<
<The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.
Some fo the super integration chips (FDC, IDE, 2SIO and parallel) have
extended that to 32.
<Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys.
This is RT-11 and RSTS and I don't have a UNIX on the q-buss -11s.
I could recompile RT but, Qbus, interrupt priority is based on position
relative to the cpu, In mine its memory, serial io and then all the rest
in order of decreasing speed.
Allison
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802010747.SAA12606 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST)
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All,
The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL
support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to:
RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
RP03 disks.
RK05 disks.
RL01 and RL02 disks.
Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources.
I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to
read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is
installed, you will be able to do:
$ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf -
and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up.
I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with
Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver
I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this
last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-)
Cheers,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802020344.OAA23220 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th
Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s.
This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on.
I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be
vanilla V7 and should work with no problems.
A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD
(again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to
add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install
code would need to change.
Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the
RL02 problems?!!
Cheers all,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802022204.JAA24121 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Swedish PUPS
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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Did I send this PDP message on to the list?
Warren
----- Forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se -----
From: beast@lintilla2.df.lth.se
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100
Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788 at sylvester.>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PUPS Membership
Hi PDP lovers!
My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden.
I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones.
Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS.
IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw.
I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is
currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25
has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help?
Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS,
11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs)
and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations).
In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering
drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02
floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it.
I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number
of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long
time. =)
Regards!
/Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center
----- End of forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se -----
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802030450.PAA00421 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:04 +1100 (EST)
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For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it
now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage
boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now.
The next version is at:
ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver
Cheers,
Warren
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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Lash <bob@wbs.net>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
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I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)
Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+.
These worked exactly as billed.
If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand.
Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The
part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.
Best wishes,
Bob Lash
bob at wbs.net
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST
From: Bob Armstrong <bob@poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us>
To: bob at wbs.net
Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget
to tell you tomorrow:
1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity.
2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program
will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because
the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think
that the machine has crashed!]
3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able
to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make
any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again
if you make a mistake, but don't believe it!
3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not
^D!) to start time sharing.
4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give
you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until
you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework,
did you :-)
5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp".
6) You're on your own. Have fun!
Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you
try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right
after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way
you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the
hardware works.
Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first.
This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if
you shut down without syncing.
Bob
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802182259.JAA09626 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000 at webchat2.wbs.net> from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Bob Lash:
> I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
> Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
> pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)
>
> Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+.
> These worked exactly as billed.
>
> If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand.
> Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The
> part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.
>
> Bob Lash
> bob at wbs.net
Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official
membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want
a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-)
On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal
section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard
anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the
nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license.
All this for a 20-year old piece of software!
This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas,
and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from
George Colouris in England and read its contents?
Cheers all,
Warren
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From: rmsmith@csc.com (Robert Smith)
Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:14:50 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802182259.JAA09626 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 19, 98 09:59:04 am
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Thanks for tweaking the list!
Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE.
Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on
my cars instead of my 11s.
The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble.
The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a
little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in
the driveway.
With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!!
waiting for Linux!!
thanks!
bob
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700
From: "Michael Kraus" <belfry@eudoramail.com>
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G'day All...
In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
Anyone who can help, please let me know.
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
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Subject: Re: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
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Michael,
You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at
ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/
The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted.
You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any
networking support.
Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA
and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS
software, which can do DECNET.
Dave
Michael Kraus wrote:
>
> G'day All...
>
> In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
>
> I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
> network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
> and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
>
> Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
> which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
> terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
>
> I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
>
> Anyone who can help, please let me know.
>
> Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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G'day All...
In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
Anyone who can help, please let me know.
Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast@lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware
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Hi gang!
Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
to make it bootable?
IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?
IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen
for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)
I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps
be used to ship things in...
Comments anyone?
/Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802222144.IAA15297 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Putting that UNIX on hardware
To: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000 at lintilla2.df.lth.se> from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm"
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In article by Beastly Wolf:
> Hi gang!
>
> Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
> Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
> Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
> then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
> Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
> Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
> put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
> to make it bootable?
I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this.
The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going.
> IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
> If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?
ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that
Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt
> IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen
> for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
> Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)
Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!!
Thanks,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802240036.LAA17631 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST)
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All,
I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source
License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have
passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which
could be affected by the license clauses.
I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO.
I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've
agreed with the draft license terms.
More news as soon as I have it....
Warren
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET)
From: Beastly Wolf <beast@lintilla2.df.lth.se>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Project generate RL02.
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Hi again gang!
It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware
with dd, as my theory went.
So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig.
I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them
myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat.
Here goes:
My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50,
DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think).
I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
RL02 controller was the same.
Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though.
Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device
BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt.
I do not have a drive connected though.
I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector.
No go. Same message.
I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel
will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have!
So here is the problem:
What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the
darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
line?
Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
laying about! =) ).
If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the
DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the
cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL
kinda rack and is hard to service.
/Lars
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Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500
From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199802241447.AA20016 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: Project generate RL02.
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<I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not
usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane
only!
RLV12 nominal CSR is 17774400, Vector 160
^^
DEQNA nominal CSR is 17774440, Vector 120
^^
I positioned the text to show how similar they are but not the same.
<snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
<What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
<RL02 controller was the same.
No they are not.
<I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kerne
No need to.
<What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
<darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
<line?
likely yes, the drive must be connected. Also recheck you haven't
interrupted the bus grant sequence with the mix of quad wide and dual
wide cards.
<Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
<laying about! =) ).
It is possible.
Allison
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802241629.AA03005 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Project generate RL02.
To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016 at world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am
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> <I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
>
> I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not
> usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane
> only!
Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a
RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there
are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus
transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the
RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome
like, say, the RXV21.
> <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
> <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
> <line?
>
> likely yes, the drive must be connected.
Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like
2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have
my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380:
Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380)
Description:
1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0
is connected to the system at boot time.
Repeat-by:
1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive
0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt
from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as
a result the rl driver will not be attached.
Fix:
1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the
presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for
an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11
probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt
reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not
online.
Tim.
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802242217.JAA22990 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
All,
Here is the DRAFT of the license for the PDP-11 versions of UNIX.
Please treat this as a IN CONFIDENCE email and do not pass it on to other
people. If you have any adverse comments, pass them back to the mailing list
as well as Dion Johnson.
Warren
- ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
DRAFT - for discussion purposes - comments to dionj at sco.com please,
and to Warren Toomey, et al, as you see fit. Please do not
distribute this widely. -Dion
Dion L. Johnson II - The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. dionj at sco.com
Czar of Free Stuff and Technical customers' advocate.
400 Encinal St. Santa Cruz, CA 95061 FAX: 408-427-5417 Voice: 408-427-7565
==============================================================================
Agreement Number: ________________
THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT
A. THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC., a California corporation
(SCO), having an office at 400 Encinal Street, Santa Cruz,
California 95061-1900 and LICENSEE, as defined in the signature
block of this Agreement agree that, as of the Effective Date
hereof, as defined in Section 7.1, the terms and conditions set
forth in this Agreement shall apply to use by LICENSEE of SOURCE
CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement.
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available under this Agreement, including rights to make and use
DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS. Such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is identified
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and merge all prior discussions between them, and neither of the
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such subject matter other than as expressly provided herein or as
duly set forth on or subsequent to the date of acceptance hereof
in writing and signed by a proper and duly authorized
representative of the party to be bound thereby. No provision
appearing on any form originated by LICENSEE shall be applicable
unless such provision is expressly accepted in writing by an
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IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be
executed by their duly authorized representatives.
LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
__________________________________ By:_________________________________
(Name)
__________________________________ ____________________________________
(Address) (Title)
__________________________________ ____________________________________
(Address) (Date)
__________________________________
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__________________________________
(Print or Type Name
__________________________________
(Title)
I. DEFINITIONS
1.1 AUTHORIZED COUNTRY means one or more countries specified on
page 1 of this Agreement.
1.2 CPU means a computer having one or more processing units and
a single global memory space.
1.3 COMPUTER PROGRAM means any instruction or instructions for
controlling the operation of a CPU.
1.4 DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT means COMPUTER PROGRAMS in OBJECT CODE
format based on a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
1.5 DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
1.6 OBJECT CODE means a COMPUTER PROGRAM in binary form,
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as a printed or written listing of programs, containing specific
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1.8 SOURCE CODE PRODUCT means a SCO software offering, primarily
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1.9 SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEM means a SCO software offering that
is (i) specifically designed for a 16-Bit computer, or (ii) the
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2. GRANT OF RIGHTS
2.1 (a) SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and
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CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely
for personal use (as restricted in Section 2.1(b)) and solely on
or in conjunction with DESIGNATED CPUs, and/or Networks of
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includes the right to modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to
prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT,
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Agreement is treated hereunder the same as such SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT. SCO claims no ownership interest in any portion of such
a modification or DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that is not part of a
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(b) Personal use is limited to noncommercial uses. Any such use
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neither the results of such use nor any enhancement or
modification so developed is intended primarily for the benefit
of a third party and (ii) any copy of any such result,
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the cost of reproduction and shipping. Any such copy that
includes any portion of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be subject to
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documentation, which is being reproduced with permission.
(d) Commercial use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS or of any
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SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS under this Agreement is not permitted. Such
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(e) SCO also grants LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and
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2.2 (a) Any notice acknowledging a contribution of a third party
appearing in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be included in
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(b) Each portion of a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT shall include an
appropriate copyright notice. Such copyright notice may be the
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PRODUCT is based or, if copyrightable changes are made in
developing such DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT, a copyright notice
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packaging, labeling or other wise that a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT
is derived from SCO's software under license from SCO and
identify such software (including any trademark, provided the
proprietor of the trademark is appropriately identified).
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BINARY PRODUCT that is confusingly similar to a name or trademark
used by SCO (or a corporate affiliate thereof).
2.4 A single back-up CPU may be used as a substitute for the
DESIGNATED CPU without notice to SCO during any time when such
DESIGNATED CPU is inoperative because it is malfunctioning or
undergoing repair, maintenance or other modification.
3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
systems:
16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
32-bit 32V
4. DELIVERY
SCO makes no guarantees or commitments that any SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT is available from SCO. If available, SCO will, within a
reasonable time after SCO receives the fee specified in this
Agreement for a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, furnish to LICENSEE one (1)
copy of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
5. EXPORT
5.1 LICENSEE agrees that it will not, without the prior written
consent of SCO, export, directly or indirectly, SOURCE CODE
PRODUCTS covered by this Agreement to any country outside of the
AUTHORIZED COUNTRY.
5.2 LICENSEE hereby assures SCO that it does not intend to and
will not knowingly, without the prior written consent, if
required, of the Office of Export Administration of the U.S.
Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230, transmit,
directly or indirectly:
(i) any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this Agreement; or
(ii) any immediate product (including processes) produced
directly by the use of any such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT;
to Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S,
W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370
of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S.
Department of Commerce.
5.3 LICENSEE agrees that its obligations under Sections 5.1 and
5.2 shall survive and continue after any termination of rights
under this Agreement.
6. FEES AND TAXES
6.1 In consideration for the rights granted to LICENSEE for use
of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS identified in Section 3 above,
LICENSEE shall pay to SCO a one-time Right-to-Use Fee of
US$100.00 for the DESIGNATED CPUs at the time this Agreement is
returned to SCO for final execution.
6.2 Payment to SCO shall be made in United States dollars to SCO
at the address specified in Section 8.8(a).
6.3 LICENSEE shall pay all taxes (and any related interest or
penalty), however designated, imposed as a result of the
existence or operation of this Agreement, including, but not
limited to, any tax which LICENSEE is required to withhold or
deduct from payment to SCO, except (i) any tax imposed upon SCO
(or a corporate affiliate thereof) in the jurisdiction in which
the aforesaid office of LICENSEE is located if such tax is
allowable as a credit against United States income taxes of SCO
(or such an affiliate) and (ii) any income tax imposed upon SCO
(or such an affiliate) by the United States or any governmental
entity within the United States proper (the fifty (50) states and
the District of Columbia). To assist in obtaining the credit
identified in (i) of this Section 5.05, LICENSEE shall furnish
SCO with such evidence as may be required by United States taxing
authorities to establish that any such tax has been paid. The
Fee specified in Section 6.1 above do not include taxes. If SCO
is required to collect a tax to be paid by LICENSEE, LICENSEE
shall pay such tax to SCO on demand.
7. TERM
7.1 This Agreement shall become effective on and as of the date
of acceptance by SCO. The initial term of this Agreement shall
be for one (1) year. Thereafter, the Agreement will
automatically renew for successive one (1) year terms unless
either party gives the other, no later than ninety (90) days
before the end of the initial term, or then current extension,
written notice of its intent to terminate this Agreement.
Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to require either
party to extend this Agreement beyond the initial term or any
subsequent term.
7.2 LICENSEE may terminate its rights under this Agreement by
written notice to SCO certifying that LICENSEE has discontinued
use of and returned or destroyed, at SCO's option, all copies of
SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement.
7.3 If LICENSEE fails to fulfill one or more of its obligations
under this Agreement, SCO may, upon its election and in addition
to any other remedies it might have, at any time terminate all
the rights granted by it hereunder by not less than two (2)
months' written notice to LICENSEE specifying any such breach,
unless within the period of such notice all breaches specified
therein shall have been remedied; upon such termination LICENSEE
shall immediately discontinue use of and return or destroy, at
SCO's option, all copies of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in its
possession.
7.4 In the event of termination of LICENSEE's rights under
Sections 7.2 or 7.3, (i) all fees that LICENSEE has become
obligated to pay shall become immediately due and payable and
(ii) SCO shall have no obligation to refund any amounts paid to
it hereunder.
8. MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS
8.1 This Agreement shall prevail notwithstanding any conflicting
terms or legends which may appear in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT.
8.2 If, and only if, SCO is the entity that provides SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT to LICENSEE, SCO warrants for a period of ninety (90)
days from furnishing a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT to LICENSEE hereunder,
that any magnetic medium on which portions of a SOURCE CODE
PRODUCT are furnished will be free under normal use from defects
in materials, workmanship or recording. If such a defect appears
within such warranty period LICENSEE may return the defective
medium for replacement without charge. Replacement is LICENSEE's
sole remedy with respect to such a defect. SCO also warrants
that it is empowered to grant the rights granted herein. SCO and
other developers make no other representations or warranties,
expressly or impliedly. By way of example but not of limitation,
SCO and other developers make no representations or warranties of
merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose, or that
the use of any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT will not infringe any patent,
copyright or trademark. SCO and other developers shall not be
held to any liability with respect to any claim by LICENSEE, or a
third party on account of, or arising from, the use of any SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT.
8.3 Neither the execution of this Agreement nor anything in any
SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be construed as an obligation upon SCO
or any other developer to furnish any person, including LICENSEE,
any assistance of any kind whatsoever, or any information or
documentation.
8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the
SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for
SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure
of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or
concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is
necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder,
LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any
such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in
confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such
person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions
on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein.
If LICENSEE should become aware of a violation of SCO's
intellectual property and/or proprietary rights, LICENSEE shall
promptly notify SCO and cooperate with SCO in such enforcement.
If information relating to a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this
Agreement at any time becomes available without restriction to
the general public by acts not attributable to LICENSEE,
LICENSEE's obligations under this section shall not apply to such
information after such time.
(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 8.4(a), LICENSEE
may make available copies of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, either in
modified or unmodified form, to third parties in the AUTHORIZED
COUNTRY having Source Code Licenses of the same scope herewith
from SCO for the same SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, if and only if (i)
LICENSEE first requests verification the status of the recipient
by contacting SCO at the address contained in Section 8.8(b) or
other number specified by SCO, and (ii) SCO gives written
verification of the recipient's software license status.
LICENSEE shall maintain a record of each such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT
made available.
8.5
(a) On SCO's request, but not more frequently than annually,
LICENSEE shall furnish to SCO a statement, listing the location,
type and serial number of the DESIGNATED CPU hereunder and
stating that the use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject
to this Agreement has been reviewed and that each such SOURCE
CODE PRODUCT is being used solely on the DESIGNATED CPU (or
temporarily on a back-up CPU) for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in
full compliance with the provisions of this Agreement.
(b) SCO shall have the right, upon reasonable notice to LICENSEE
and through SCO's accredited auditing representative, to make an
on-site inspection during normal business hours, not more
frequently than annually, of all LICENSEE's CPUs to determine
that SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS are being used solely on the DESIGNATED
CPU and are used solely for personal purposes as authorized under
this Agreement.
8.6 The obligations of LICENSEE under Section 8.4 shall survive
and continue after any termination of rights under this
Agreement.
8.7 Neither this Agreement nor any rights hereunder, in whole or
in part, shall be assignable or otherwise transferable by
LICENSEE and any purported assignment or transfer shall be null
and void.
8.8 (a) Payments to SCO under this Agreement shall be made
payable and sent to:
CHECK DRAWN ON U.S. BANK TO:
THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
P.O. Box 7745
San Francisco, CA 94120-7745
(b) Correspondence with SCO relating to this Agreement shall be sent to:
THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC.
400 Encinal Street
Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900
United States of America
Attention: Law and Corporate Affairs
(c) Any statement, notice, request or other communication shall
be deemed to be sufficiently given to the addressee and any
delivery hereunder deemed made when sent by certified mail
addressed to LICENSEE at its office specified in this Agreement
or to SCO at the appropriate address specified in this Section
7.7. Each party to this Agreement may change an address relating
to it by written notice to the other party.
8.9 LICENSEE shall obtain all approvals from any governmental
authority in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY required to effectuate this
Agreement according to its terms, including any such approvals
required for LICENSEE to make payments to SCO pursuant to this
Agreement. LICENSEE shall bear all expenses associated with
obtaining such approvals.
8.10 The construction and performance of this Agreement shall be
governed by the laws of the State of California, USA.
SCO-Soft. Sp.-022498
- ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson -----
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250305.OAA23864 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923 at rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Chris Drake:
> Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable...
> A couple of questions, though:
>
> - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more
> than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or
> is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee?
>
> - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of
> the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee?
>
> - Chris Drake
I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will
be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off
fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions
(e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.)
The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries.
I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as:
All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China
or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1
to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by
the U.S. Department of Commerce.
Hope this helps,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250308.OAA23877 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Allison J Parent:
> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the
> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media
> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100
> including machine readable media that would be something more
> agreeable.
>
> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for
> that vversion on media?
I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
distribute the image with every license.
If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250335.OAA23908 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies?
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST)
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Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III.
Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive?
Thanks,
Warren
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Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345 at freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
References: <199802250259.AA24622 at world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Allison J Parent:
>> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the
>> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media
>> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100
>> including machine readable media that would be something more
>> agreeable.
>>
>> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for
>> that vversion on media?
>
> I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
> is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
> to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
> distribute the image with every license.
How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something.
> If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
> we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
> going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.
Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification".
Greg
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802250358.OAA24047 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: PDP-11 Applications
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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Dear All,
I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and
there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications
written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems.
I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix
tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977.
Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB.
Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix
are on the 'net??
If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD.
Ta,
Warren
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Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD
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I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems.
Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other.
I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I
get this:
login: root
Password:
Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console
2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST
[1] root--> passwd grog
Changing password for grog.
New password:
Retype new password:
passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged.
[2] root-->
If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that
way I can't change my password.
Any ideas?
Greg
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199802251205.AA07228 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
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<I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
<is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
I find this distressing as putting up unix an my 11/73 is dependent on
availability of all the correct parts being available(drivers et al).
While I believe thre are versions that can be put on the machine I do
not know enough to speculate how or what device requirements there would
be. What comes to mind, can it be configured to exploit the hardware?
Or maybe the question should be is there a copy complete enough that has
all of the installion templates?
<to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
<distribute the image with every license.
That would make sense, readable under dos, linux?
<If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provide
<we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
<going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwi
Definately should be written notification for manageability at their end.
Allison
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252158.IAA25252 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: System III (fwd)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST)
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----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain -----
From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
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Reply-To: Alan Bain <afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: System III
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980225140211.13155I-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what
became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!).
Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5
versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in
Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even
been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly
disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and
unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain
proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a
sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If
anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them.
Alan
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252212.JAA25371 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F at pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Paul McJones:
> Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been
> published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated
> cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to
> me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th
> edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with
> SCO's latest?
No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and
alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers
as designated CPUs. They probably did this to:
+ minimise the work they had to do, and
+ prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems
If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant:
e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's
selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example).
That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!!
[Maybe I'm just being paranoid here].
Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license
for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED
number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU
restriction in the new license.
I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen.
Mind you, don't hold him to that!
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252237.JAA25560 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST)
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Dion in SCO says:
> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
> be prepared to do this?
> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already
> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>
> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
> how to service the new guy. Would that work?
So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)
Warren
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Dion in SCO says:
>
>> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
>> be prepared to do this?
>
>> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
>> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already
>> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>>
>> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
>> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
>> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
>> how to service the new guy. Would that work?
>
> So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
> license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)
Don't say I didn't tell you.
I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
(what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
Greg
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am"
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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> Don't say I didn't tell you.
Oh, I was expecting this.
> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
I'd like to see:
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a
reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM
image won't change more than once a year.
As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
need the volunteers to have PGP too.
If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.
We're going to have to work on this in the next few months.
Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering!
Warren
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
> Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
> I'd like to see:
>
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
(8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel
1600 bpi.
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
> in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe).
Europe and UK separately, eh?
> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone.
That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to
be limited to DOS-style naming.
> As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
> via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
> need the volunteers to have PGP too.
Not a problem.
> If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
> You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.
Seems reasonable.
Greg
--
Greg Lehey LEMIS
grog at lemis.com PO Box 460
Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia
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From: rmsmith@csc.com (Robert Smith)
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802252212.JAA25371 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 26, 98 09:12:16 am
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Warren,
and the rest of us!
Thanks!
Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would
with the license discussion!
I will take what I can get to be legal!
Thanks for all the work on this!!
bob
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Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free
already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
stuff from System V?).
I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs
4.2 (not a vax...).
I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by
someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago
when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way.
Does anyone know what the real story is?
--tim
--
Tim Bradshaw, System Manager,
Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute,
University of Edinburgh
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802262023.HAA26835 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm"
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In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
> this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
> the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free
> already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
> derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
> stuff from System V?).
No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the
4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax.
Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that
a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs,
and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about
the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get
out licenses?!
P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license?
I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs!
Warren
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199802271907.LAA25828 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog at lemis.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Howdy -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
> (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi.
Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150?
I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work
at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves
record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can
make TK25 tapes.
I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at
which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace
it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)).
> > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>
> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone.
You've me to thank for that ;-)
> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
applied.
> One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
> RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to
Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that
need help with long filenames or deep directories.
Steven Schultz
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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In message <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
>Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
>I'd like to see:
>
> + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
> + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
> + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of
anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73.
This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage
is reimbursed.
Robin
PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future.
Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome
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Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Howdy -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
>>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>>
>> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
>> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone.
>
> You've me to thank for that ;-)
Indeed. Thanks.
>> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM
>> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
>
> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> applied.
Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date?
Greg
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802280417.AA20644 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861 at freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm
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> > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
> > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> > applied.
>
> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
> to be up to date?
You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa <shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
>>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
>>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD
>>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
>>> applied.
>>
>> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
>> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
>> to be up to date?
>
> You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
> he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
>
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved,
it might be easier to burn WORMs.
Greg
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Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199802280443.UAA00780 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Tim -
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?
The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major
projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find
something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;)
> Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
> barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable
that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.
> -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).
The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors
do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?
> It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
> have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the
ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd
media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading
in popularity.
> boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via
the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's
memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not
clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.
Steven
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From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802280607.AA30497 at alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
>
> How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?
On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just
under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast
7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting
from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some
benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago.
> I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
> for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable
> that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
> rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.
That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than
Fry's, that's all :-).
> > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
>
> Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
> with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
> the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
> with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
> appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
> the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).
> The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
> at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors
> do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?
The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size-
block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its
hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized
"virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you
automagically.)
> > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
>
> Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the
> ISO9660 filesystem.
That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like
4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem;
if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone
CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've
built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way.
> > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this?
>
> It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via
> the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
> needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's
> memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
> argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
> swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk
RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by
using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:).
> but it's not
> clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.
It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find
the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're
a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart!
Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)
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1997-11-03 19:09 ` SCO Free OpenServer and UnixWare S. Sigala
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