From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: ssigala@globalnet.it (S. Sigala) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:09:15 +0100 (MET) Subject: SCO Free OpenServer and UnixWare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, sorry if this is off topic, but... have anyone ordered/tested the Free versions of SCO OpenServer and/or UnixWare? Are them interesting enough? (I'm currently playing with both Linux and FreeBSD, and since we are talking about the UNIX PDP source license from a lot of time, i wish to know if these Free UNIX versions contain some interesting/useful UNIX source code...) Regards, Sandro Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07133 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:48:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07127 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:48:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11909 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:48:37 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199711240248.NAA11909 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 Unix Source Licenses - Status To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:48:36 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, We've had a number of new subscribers to the PDP-11 UNIX mailing list, so I'd like to welcome them to the list, and say that questions about these old systems (and the hardware) are always welcome here, so fire away! I mailed Dion Johnson at SCO again re the license issue, with no reply. I tried some other SCO contacts, and got this back from Peter Laytham: Unfortunately this is always a busy time for SCO folk - September is our end of financial year, which means October and November are given over to planning and regional kick-off events including training (which Dion gets involved in). If you can bear with us, we are both submitting your case to the powers that be within SCO. However SCO has a fair bit of other work to cope with keeping the evil empire at bay and rolling out some significant new technologies (SVr5, Tarantella and two clustering products - reliantHA and Non-stop for UnixWare) which is slowing down non critical decisions such as this one. Cheers Peter So it looks like we're in for some more waiting. Sorry for the lack of change in status, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07224 for pups-liszt; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:20:21 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07219 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:20:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12125 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:20:47 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199711240320.OAA12125 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11/04 serial pinout (fwd) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:20:46 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Nickolai Zeldovich ----- [Nickolai, a message posted to the vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 newsgroups should also get some answers for you! -- Warren] From: Nickolai Zeldovich Hi, I was wondering if you could answer a simple (or maybe not, I'm not all that sure) question about PDP machines for me. I managed to get a PDP-11/04, I believe, but it had no console with it. All it has on the back is a RS232-looking plug with some unknown to me pinout. Would you be so kind as to give me some information or pointers how to hook up any sort of an input/output device to it? -Thank You. Nickolai Zeldovich. -- +-------------------------+----------------------+--------------------------+ | Nickolai Zeldovich | ZEPANET | UCF Math Department | | http://kolya.zepa.net/ | http://www.zepa.net/ | http://www.math.ucf.edu/ | | nickolai at kolya.zepa.net | nickolai at zepa.net | nickolai at math.ucf.edu | +-------------------------+----------------------+--------------------------+ ----- End of forwarded message from Nickolai Zeldovich ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09962 for pups-liszt; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:36:30 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA09957 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:36:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23316 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:37:00 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199711242237.JAA23316 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Last Email from SCO - new license wording To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:37:00 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've just received some email from Dion Johnson at SCO re the PDP-11 UNIX source licenses. Apparently he's been away from work (holidays?). He says: I have a new cut of the proposed license from our NJ Legal folks. I compare with past versions and see what it has. I know the 32V was added to the list of licensed versions (good). Not sure if the other problems were fixed. I will get back to you before the holiday weekend coming. As always, I'll let you know things as I receive them. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11991 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:06:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11986 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:06:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04976 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:06:53 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712042206.JAA04976 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP 11 Discs - UK readers please To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:06:53 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Can any of our UK PDP-11 people help this guy out? I don't know if the disks contain Unix or other stuff. Warren ----- Forwarded message from Roger Chan ----- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:31:07 +0000 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au From: Roger Chan Subject: PDP 11 Discs Dear Warren, I was hoping you might be able to help me regarding some PDP 11 discs which we have here, and wish to extract data from. The discs are labelled: 2315 Disc cartridge 12 Sector DRI Part number 592 We have a number of these discs containg data which we would like to have converted into a format which can easily be read by a PC (ASCII, or whatever.) However, as you can tell by my e mail address, I'm in the UK and I was wondering if you knew of anyone/ any group in Britain who could help me with this task. If you do, I would be very grateful if you forwarded this message on to them. Thank you very much, Roger Chan Dept. of Visual Science Institute of Ophthalmology University College London London EC1V 9EL UK ----- End of forwarded message from Roger Chan ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12017 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:08:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12012 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:08:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05009 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:08:47 +1100 (EST) Received: from csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.20.6]) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04692 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:03:18 +1100 (EST) Received: from skalman.educ.goteborg.se (skalman.educ.goteborg.se [194.17.166.40]) by csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12211 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:03:13 +1100 (EST) Received: from ta6.ped.kortedala.educ.goteborg.se (ta6.ped.kortedala.educ.goteborg.se [194.218.185.54]) by skalman.educ.goteborg.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24590 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:03:05 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34871ACD.4ACC at usa.net> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 13:04:13 -0800 From: uko@kortedala.educ.goteborg.se Reply-To: uko at kortedala.educ.goteborg.se Organization: kortedalagymnasiet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I just bought an 11/23 with RL02 and i have litle problems setting it up If anybody feels for helping please mail me at mario.jelica at usa.net Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12653 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:26:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12647 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:25:56 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05350; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:25:55 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712050225.NAA05350 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 To: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:25:54 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 05:35:12 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Erin Corliss: > > My roommate and I have a PDP-11/23 Plus that has no disk or tape drives > and no controller board for either. I've been able to boot Unix version 5 > on an emulator here, and from what I've read, this operating system should > be able to boot on the PDP-11/23. The operating system has a kernel in > the root directory called "unix", which is about 23 kilobytes long. I am > trying to set the computer up to boot from a serial port which will be > connected to a Linux machine, which will simulate an RK05 disk drive. > Does anyone know where the low level routines for reading and writing on > an RK series drive are found? Are they built into the kernel or are they > in some separate device driver or module? Also, I need to know what > memory locations are used as registers by the RK05 drive and what commands > can be given to it, so if anyone has spec sheets for it.... Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell. If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+. I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives. Does anybody else have other suggestions??? Best wishes, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12793 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12781 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05624; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:02 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712050330.OAA05624 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 To: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:01 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: from Erin Corliss at "Dec 4, 97 07:14:18 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Erin Corliss: > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Warren Toomey wrote: > > > Eric, I don't think this is going to work. The RK05 driver is in the > > kernel, and it plays with the RK05 hardware registers. You aren't going > > to be able to emulate these, as far as I can tell. > > I was looking at a disassembly of the boot sector on one of the disk > images I downloaded and from what I could see the software talks to the > hardware through memory addresses in the area of 177xxx, in a similar > fashion to the way Apple II's and Amiga's talk to their hardware. If I > can get information about what addresses and values are used to control > the RK05, I think it would be possible to gut out some non-essential part > of the kernel, the tape drive controller for example, and replace it with > code that sends and receives RK05 commands and data through the serial > port. I would then search through the kernel and replace all of the > references to the RK05's registers to BSR's that went to appropriate > places in my serial port routines.... I've performed similar kludging on > PC's and Amigas, so I'm pretty certain I can manage it if I have the right > information to start with. > > > If you tell us where you live, perhaps someone on the list might be > > able to help you find an appropriate drive and disks for your 11/23+. > > That would be easier... > Eugene, Oregon, USA > > > I do have some old ('74) spec sheets for the RK05 drives. > > Any chance I could get a peek? Eric, I'll put you on the PUPS mailing list so you'll get any replies from the other members. I'll try and scan in the RK05 docs and put them up via ftp for you. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13010 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:37:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13005 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:37:22 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05757; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:33:38 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712050433.PAA05757 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 To: Bob.Supnik at digital.com (Bob Supnik) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:33:37 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920656D2F5 at excmso.mso.dec.com> from Bob Supnik at "Dec 4, 97 11:26:15 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Bob Supnik: > Warren, > > The RK05 is implicitly documented in the sources to the PDP-11 > simulator, if that would help. Yes, I hadn't thought of that. Other places are the Lions commentary, and the Unix source of course. Thanks for the reply Bob. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13050 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:12 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13045 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05787 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:14 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712050449.PAA05787 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:49:13 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by commands sent over the serial line. The idea is that a person can hand-enter the boot code to retrieve the `boot block' from the simulated disk drive. From there, the bootstrap can retrieve the Unix kernel, which can then use the simulated drive as the root filesystem. The user can then log in, use mkfs to build a filesystem on a real disk drive, and install a suitable Unix kernel without requiring a tape drive. The protocol used must be simple enough that bootstraps can be entered manually - at least to get the boot block from the second computer. Minimalist Protocol ------------------- 4-byte commands are sent from the PDP-11 to the other computer. The command structure is: Byte 0: What command to perform Byte 1: On which remote drive to perform the command Byte 2: Low-order bits of block number Byte 3: High-order bits of block number Blocks are 512 bytes. The commands allow access to 65,536 blocks (32Megs) on 256 virtual disk drives. Of course, an alternate view could be 65,536 on 256 platters, giving 8G of disk space. Commands are: 0x00 NOP Do nothing 0x01 READ Read specified block 0x02 WRITE Write specified block NOP: The second computer does nothing in response. However, this can be used to determine if the PDP-11 is actually sending commands. READ: The second computer returns 512 bytes which contains the requested block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. WRITE: The PDP-11 sends 512 bytes which contains the requested block. There is no checksum, framing bytes or block# details. The second computer does nothing in response. Drawbacks: Line noise is gonna really cause havoc. Only one command can be pending, as the PDP-11 has no idea what block is what when it comes back from the second computer. Advantages: Should be easy to write bootstrap and /usr/mdec software, and a kernel-level device driver should be very easy. Altering v5, v6, v7 2.9BSD and 2.11BSD should be straight-forward. Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA13490 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:42:05 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mb1.mailbank.com (mb1.mailbank.com [204.244.193.15]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13485 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:42:00 +1100 (EST) Received: from p10.t0.rio.com [206.96.130.110] (HELO corliss.com) by mb1.mailbank.com (AltaVista Mail V2.0H/2.0H BL25H listener) id 0000_006a_3487_b02c_08a3; Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:41:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34874091.3F778FE9 at corliss.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:45:21 +0000 From: Erin Corliss Reply-To: erin at corliss.com Organization: GTA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. Does the DL11 port have an interrupt that is driven when data is received, or do processes have to constantly poll it to receive data? Is the information stored on a PDP-11 disk in 8 or 9 bit words? How many bits per word are transmitted/received by the DL11? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13703 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:04:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.154]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA13698 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:03:58 +1100 (EST) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1025285; 5 Dec 97 8:53 GMT Message-ID: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc at falstaf.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:51:33 +0000 To: erin at corliss.com Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au From: Robin Birch Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <34874091.3F778FE9 at corliss.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.03b Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc access it has a couple of good thigs to it: 1) The only stuff that has to be loaded over the serial line without the benefit of lots of code that can do error checking is the initial standalone loader. 2) The standalone loader can then treat the serial port as a tape drive which is a relatively simple process as far as the loader is concerned and so you would only need a driver that looked like a TS11 (say) but talked to a serial port. 3) The PC end would then just have a simple prog that would treat the files on the PC as tape files which would make shipping stuff around easy as we could then do this as dump or tar forms which could be just ftp'd etc from archives. It would be slow but it would get things going quite simply. Ideas + comments please? Robin Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14046 for pups-liszt; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:59:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14041 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:59:32 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id FAA12489; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16527; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:59:28 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:59:28 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199712051059.AA16527 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:40:26 +1100 (EST) Received: (from neil at localhost) by skatter.USask.Ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA05287; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:40:07 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:40:07 -0600 (CST) From: Neil Johnson Message-Id: <199712051640.KAA05287 at skatter.USask.Ca> To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, zomad at rio.com Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Neil Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA15046 for pups-liszt; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA15041 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:54:09 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA01585; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9712051653.AA01585 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Ok, it would be nice to have a way of installing Unix onto a PDP-11 without a > tape drive. Here's a proposal: please comment on it (i.e shoot it down!). I > actually wrote a very similar system to move files off my Apple ][ once. > > The PDP-11 is connected serially to another computer, using a DL11 port. The > other computer will simulate one or more disk drives which are acessible by > commands sent over the serial line. > [Protocol description] > Do we need a more sophisticated protocol with checksums, multiple outstanding > commands, acknowledgments, framing bytes etc.? Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58 Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19692 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:38 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19687 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:34 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06858; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712070415.PAA06858 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:15:41 +1100 (EST) Cc: erin at corliss.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <57g$OAAVC8h0Ewlc at falstaf.demon.co.uk> from Robin Birch at "Dec 5, 97 08:51:33 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Robin Birch: > This shouldn't be a problem. Thinking from a 2.11 point of view, if > something that could load the standalone kernel was written and an > additional deveice driver included that would talk over the serial line > once the standalone stuff was up you could treat the PC, or whatever, as > a tape drive. Whilst this doesn't give all the frills of full disc > access it has a couple of good thigs to it: I was thinking of simulating a disk, as then we could manipulate the disk image using an emulator on the PC end, and still use it on the PDP-11 end. I've made some changes to the suggestions I emailed, and if I get some time just after Xmas, I'll try to get something working under v6. Then I can port it up to v7 and 2BSD. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19707 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19702 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06883; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712070417.PAA06883 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11 Unix v5 To: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:17:16 +1100 (EST) Cc: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, zomad at rio.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199712051640.KAA05287 at skatter.USask.Ca> from Neil Johnson at "Dec 5, 97 10:40:07 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Neil Johnson: > It may be difficult to find a Q-bus RK05 controller. RL01/RL02 drives > and controllers are a lot more common, and bigger, so might be a better > choice. You might have to switch to v6 Unix to get the RL support though. Given how close v6 and v6 were, backporting the RL driver to v5 shouldn't present too many problems. I hope :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19719 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19714 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06903; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199712070418.PAA06903 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal (fwd) To: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:18:42 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) In-Reply-To: <9712051653.AA01585 at alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 5, 97 08:53:53 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Shoppa: > Your proposal sounds very similar to the existing protocol (RSP) used > to access remote block-addressable devices (TU58's) over a DL11 port. > Why not just choose the RSP protocol? It has the advantages of already > being defined and it already has support in most DEC OS's. It could > be easily extended to support larger devices. And RSP-servers > already exist for BSD-ish systems - see, for example, > > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/utils/tu58 > > Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. I'll pull that file and have a look. Thanks Tim, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19870 for pups-liszt; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA19865 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:17:27 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA22184; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9712070517.AA22184 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:17:23 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > How complex is the tu58 protocol? I wanted something that we could > hand-toggle the boot code, if necessary. Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the bootstraps. Later Unibus processors (11/24, 11/44) often had TU58 bootstrap PROMs to boot diagnostics from TU58. The TU58 drivers aren't as simple as RK05 drivers (is anything as simple as a RK05 driver?) but they are comparable with, say, RL01/02 and RX02 drivers. One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21405 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:19:06 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (ppp6.york.ac.uk [144.32.4.106]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA21400 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:18:57 +1100 (EST) Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id RAA01057; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:47 GMT From: "Pete Turnbull " Message-Id: <9712071718.ZM1055 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:18:36 +0000 Reply-To: pnt103 at cs.york.ac.uk X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Dec 6, 21:17, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > bootstraps. Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't, and according to my microPDP-11 Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too old to include 11/53 and 11/93). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21591 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:05:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA21582 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 05:05:29 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA01939; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:24 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9712071805.AA01939 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:05:23 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > bootstraps. > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or a KDJ11B (quad-height, boot ROMs on the CPU board)? If you have a KDJ11A, then your boot ROM resides in a MXV11, a BDV11, or elsewhere (possibly a third-party controller) in your system. (You'll notice that I said "11/73B" in my above message, because the KDJ11A has no boot ROMs at all...) My KDJ11B has the following built in bootstraps (listed through "Setup" in the boot menu or with a "Boot" followed by a "?"): DU 0-255 CPU ROM RDnn, RXnn, RC25, RAnn DL 0-3 CPU ROM RL01, RL02 DX 0-1 CPU ROM RX01 DY 0-1 CPU ROM RX02 DD 0-1 CPU ROM TU58 DK 0-7 CPU ROM RK05 MU 0-255 CPU ROM TK50, TU81 MS 0-3 CPU ROM TK25, TS05 XH 0-1 CPU ROM DECNET ETHERNET NU 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DUV11 NE 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-E NF 0-15 CPU ROM DECNET DLV11-F If your KDJ11B doesn't allow you to see the above list, then the boot menu has been disabled and it has been set to only auto-boot. I can tell you how to reconfigure to get at the boot menu. > and according to my microPDP-11 > Maintenance Manual, only the 11/23+ and microPDP-11/23 have TU58 -- the only > tape devices listed for 11/73 and 11/83 are TK25 and TK50 (my manual is too > old to include 11/53 and 11/93). Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). The downside, of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! I certainly don't want anyone to think that I'm extolling the TU58 as a perfect wonderful device. There are lots of reasons to *not* use them. My point was mainly that the RSP (radial serial protocol) used to speak to them is well-defined and already exists; there's no use in re-inventing the wheel. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21994 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:11:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (ppp5.york.ac.uk [144.32.4.105]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21989 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:10:59 +1100 (EST) Received: by indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.AUTO) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au id VAA01507; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:53 GMT From: "Pete Turnbull " Message-Id: <9712072110.ZM1505 at indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:10:43 +0000 In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa "Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal" (Dec 7, 10:05) References: <9712071805.AA01939 at alph02.triumf.ca> Reply-To: pnt103 at cs.york.ac.uk X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Dec 7, 10:05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Many (most) Q-bus processors have TU58 bootstraps in firmware. > > > Certainly all 11/73B, 11/83, 11/93, 11/84, and 11/94 have the > > > bootstraps. > > > > Are you sure, Tim? My 11/73 doesn't > Is this a KDJ11A (dual-height, no boot ROMs on the CPU board) or Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) My point was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. > Part of the confusion may lie in the fact that TU58's appear to the system > to be disk (block-addressable) instead of tape devices :-). Indeed, but we both know that DD means tape :-) > The downside, > of course, is that it's a disk with a 30-second seek time! But still better than some systems. (Fond memories of TU56's on a PDP8, and not-so-fond memories of friends' Commodore disks, which seemed slower even than that). And as Tim points out, RSP is well-defined, tried, and tested. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22424 for pups-liszt; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:15:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA22416 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:14:57 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA24774; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9712080014.AA24774 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:14:41 -0800 (PST) Cc: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Well, my KDJ11 systems are somewhat non-standard, so it's possibly not > relevant. I can't easily check ATM, as they're running live Unix systems :-) > My point > was that I didn't think the TU58 was in all revisions of the bootstrap ROMs. > > I know how to get the information (from a variety of revisions and CPUs) > because I not only have the documentation, I used to be employed as a > maintenance 'engineer' on QBus systems. OK, then, I *think* the most complete official summary of hardware bootstraps is Micronote #15, something that every Q-bus maintenance engineer ought to have readily available... If our esteemed list-owner will allow me to post an excerpt from it: *begin excerpt* +============+======================================================+ | | | | BOOT | DESCRIPTION | | DEVICE | | | | | +============+======================================================+ | BDV11 | Bus Terminator, Bootstrap & Diagnostic ROM | | | used primarily with older LSI-11 configurations | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-A board | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | MXV11-B2 | Bootstrap ROM set designed for MXV11-BF & MRV11-D | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BA | Bootstrap ROM on board PDP-11/23+ systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BE | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/23 systems | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDF11-BF | New Bootstrap ROM for PDP-11/23+ and MicroPDP-11/23 | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A2 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KXT11-A5 | Bootstrap ROM on board Falcon-Plus | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | KDJ11-B | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroPDP-11/73 CPU | +------------+------------------------------------------------------+ | uVAX I | Bootstrap ROM on board MicroVAX I CPU | +============+======================================================+ Page 2 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | BDV11 | MXV11-A2 | MXV11-B2 | KDF11-BA | KDF11-BE | | | | | | | | | | Rev A | |see Note 2| part no | part no. | | | | | | 23-339E2| 23-157E4| | |see Note 1| | | 23-340E2| 23-158E4| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 |see Note 1| X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | X | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | X | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | X | X | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | | | X | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | | | X | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | X | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 3 BOOTSTRAP DEVICE SUPPORT +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | DEVICE | KDF11-BF | KXT11-A2 | KXT11-A5 | KDJ11-B | uVAX I | | | | | | | | | | part no | | |available |available | | | 23-183E4| | | on CPU | on CPU | | | 23-184E4| | |board only|board only| +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ | RX01 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX02 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TU58 | X | X | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RL01/2 | X | | X | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-C | | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | MRV11-D | | | | | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RK05 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RX50 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD51 | X | | X | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RD52 | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TSV05 | X | | | | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | TK25 | X | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | RC25 | X | | |See note 3|See note 3| +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DEQNA | X | | | X | X | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-E | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DLV11-F | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DUV11 | | | | X | | +----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+ | DPV11 | | | | | | +==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+==========+ Page 4 NOTES: ------ (1) The information in the BDV11 column refers to the Rev A chips. There were also Rev O chips and an additional TU58 chip that can be added to the board: Rev O: Part numbers 23-010E2, 23-011E2 Does NOT support: DLV11-F, RX02 as bootable devices TU58 ROM: Part number 23-126F3 Inserted into socket XE40. Other ROM must be Rev A. Allows use of the TU58 DECtape II as a bootable device. *end excerpt* It looks to me like the only devices with more complete than TU58 hardware bootstrap support in the Q-bus world are RX01 and RX02... and RX02 is already supported for the standalone utilities in BSD2.11, thanks to the efforts of someone who will here go nameless :-) Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24287 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:01:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from rio.com (rio.com [206.96.130.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24282 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:01:43 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (zomad at localhost) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA29933 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:03:34 -0800 (PST) From: Erin Corliss To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <9712070517.AA22184 at alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > One thing we don't want people doing is thinking that the TU58 > protocol can be used as a poor man's system disk. Yes, it is > flexible enough to be used as such, but it would be cruel to > allow anyone to do that to themselves :-) Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as kind of a freak show act.... Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA24704 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:46:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from bsdserver.tek-star.net ([206.29.81.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24699 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:46:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (dseagrav at localhost) by bsdserver.tek-star.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09165; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:35:02 -0600 (CST) From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" To: Erin Corliss cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Erin Corliss wrote: > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... (Speaking of which: Anyone want an IBM S/34 in running condition with software? [Loads of 8" floppies]) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25478 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:17:15 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from rio.com (rio.com [206.96.130.10]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25473 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:17:11 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (zomad at localhost) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28217; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) From: Erin Corliss To: "Daniel A. Seagraves" cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Freak show? Actually, an emulator on a PC would be more of a freak show! Well, personally I think it's the *realness* of the thing that sells tickets to freak shows. You can paint all the pictures of two headed babies you want, but the guy who has a living one in a jar is the one who draws the crowd. 8^) > I have come to the conclusion that PCs are freaks - REAL computers come in > racks! The bigger the better, unless I can't store it... I'm not going to argue for PC's. My roommate & I have about 20 of them lying around and we've been working furiously lately to consolidate them into one big rackmounted, networked Linux system. In fact one of the projects that's been slowly moving toward the front of my mind is to modify the forking and piping system in Linux so that the OS can dynamically allocate networked motherboards when it needs to run new tasks... Like if you run two tasks from the console it will run one on the local machine and pick a remote machine on the network to run the next one, then pipe the output from both of them back to the console so they both appear to have been run on the local machine. It wouldn't increase the "BogoMips" but it would be nice for graphics rendering, inexpensive multiuser systems, or anything else that needs or can use multiple processes. But I digress. Yes, PC's are built like a psychotic dog-mansion, but unless someone offered me a PDP-11 with a 64-bit data bus that was made with modern chip manufacturing techniques and had a decent user interface & peripherals, I'd still choose a PC over a PDP-11. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25634 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:59 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA25629 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:18:52 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA10544; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9712082316.AA10544 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal To: zomad at rio.com (Erin Corliss) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:11 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: from "Erin Corliss" at Dec 8, 97 07:03:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Ummm.... I'd just like to point out here that if I was intending to put > PDP-11 Unix to any meaningful use (which *would* be a terrible thing to > do to myself) I'd just run an emulator on one of my other computers. What > I'm looking for here is a project I can kill some of my weekends on. I > was thinking eventually I could wire the /usr/games/chess up to my web > page so people could "Play a game of chess with the PDP-11!", you know, as > kind of a freak show act.... Well, if you just want a minimal system that can play simple games through the console port, you don't need any of the Unices. RT-11 is perfectly servicable and will boot from floppy or TU58 quite nicely; it's even possible to have a working TCP/IP implementation on a 11/03 this way. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25904 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:17:18 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25898 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:17:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA08022; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23476; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:17:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:17:02 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199712090117.AA23476 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:20:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (zomad at localhost) by rio.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA14664; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:21:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:21:45 -0800 (PST) From: Erin Corliss To: Allison J Parent cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal In-Reply-To: <199712090117.AA23476 at world.std.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > The 32bit version is called a vax! I'll take a vax over a PC anyday. > Come to mention it I have 6 Vaxen and 4 operating qbus pdp-11s. Who wouldn't? (As long as I could put Unix on it instead of VMS, of course.) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26200 for pups-liszt; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:33:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26195 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:32:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA28802; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28543; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:32:43 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:32:43 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199712090332.AA28543 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: PDP-11: Disk over Serial proposal Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:23:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from p91.t0.rio.com [206.96.130.191] (HELO corliss.com) by mb1.mailbank.com (AltaVista Mail V2.0H/2.0H BL25H listener) id 0000_00a4_34b0_6e49_a57f; Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:23:21 -0800 Message-ID: <34B06E4B.20CDBAA at corliss.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:23:23 -0800 From: Erin Corliss Reply-To: erin at corliss.com Organization: GTA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hello. I have a free operating system directory at: http://rio.com/~zomad I have a link to the PUPS home page for PDP-11 Unix & was wondering if you can add a link to my page. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18889 for pups-liszt; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:48 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18884 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:44 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA04976 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:50 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199801300440.PAA04976 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:40:50 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi all, Last year I mentioned the idea of installing PDP-11 UNIX over a serial line, for those people who have real PDP-11s but no tape drives. I've written the code to do this over the past few days, and its time to pass it to someone who actually has a PDP-11 and no tape drive! The code is of course alpha-quality, but I'm using a PC running John Wilson's Ersatz to install 7th Edition on a simulated RK05 right now. I need someone who has a: + PDP-11 which _will_ run 7th Edition + Spare RK05, RP03, RP04, RP05 or RP06 disk + A DL/KL-11 serial port at vector 0176500 (i.e 2nd unit) + An RS-232 null modem with hardware handshaking lines + A machine running a 32-bit Unix to host the other end of the serial connection + Spare time, and a tendency for masochism :-) Someone who also has a PDP-11 running v7, and a source license would be a bonus, as they might be able to help with the debugging. I'm at the point where I can bring in the `boot' file (record 0) off the simulated UNIX install tape, load and run cat, mkfs, icheck and restor. I get some error messages with restor (``Missing address (header) block''), which I believe are to do with the 10,240 byte record requests from restor. My code expects 512-byte requests, and I'm doing 20 a time to fulfill the 10,240 request, but still problems. Once the code is solid, I'd like to add other disks (RL02s etc.), and write a user-mode program to read from the tape once UNIX has booted off disk. This will allow other tape formats (e.g tar) to be read in. If anybody would be willing to participate in getting this stuff to work well, could they e-mail me next week?! Thanks in advance, Warren wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA20201 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:46:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20195 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:46:35 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA19168; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19117; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:46:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:46:31 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199801301446.AA19117 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07375; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:43 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199801302206.JAA07375 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:06:42 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199801301446.AA19117 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jan 30, 98 09:46:31 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > > <10,240 request, but still problems. > > Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. I found the problem - my dump image was corrupt :-). I now have a clean v7 dump of /, and there are no complaints from restor. I've had a few people volunteer to try out the code. I'll clean it up, finish off the docs, and put it up for ftp in a few days, with an email on the PUPS mailing list on how to retrieve it. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22547 for pups-liszt; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:52:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22542 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA23209 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:36:05 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199801310536.VAA23209 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - I thought I'd chime in with my experience with "high" speed serial transfers... > From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > > Try slowing down. You may be overflowing the input buffer. This was > a common problem on TU58s hooked to the 2nd DL on some systems at speeds > above either 4800 or 9600. It only happend in the TU58 to host direction The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but useless except in a 'standalone' environment. As a boot device they were just "slower than molasses in January". As a data storage device to be used while the system was up and doing other stuff the TU58 was quite poor. I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk. The first time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt. > (read) as the opposite path expected a handshake every 128 bytes(to allow > the tu58 to actually do the write to tape). It seems the tu58 would send > a 512byte block as 4 128byte packets at a sustained rate fast enough to > overrun the PDP-11 host input buffer; before it could be emptied. You The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > may be emulating a similar problem. PCs do not service interrupts all > that fast and OS overhead can make that longer. Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 baud serial line I'd think. > Note PDP-11s can have enough overhead and higher priority stuff ahead of > the 2nd DL that it cannot take data at greater than 4800 baud (sustained Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a 286. The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4. A disk interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun. > rate) without some kind of handshake to allow processing in between. > If the system is basically unloaded like my minimal 11/23 it can run at > 38.4! The most likely time when this overrun can happen is while doing If it's not doing too much else. I don't see an 11/xx handling high serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a kernel recompile is going on ;-) If you're using a DHV-11 the data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is lower. A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over 9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to make its way to disk. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24275 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:19:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA24270 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:18:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA04175; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA26294; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199801311818.AA26294 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:46:02 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29575; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:59 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA08065; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751 at lemis.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Allison J Parent Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution References: <199801311818.AA26294 at world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199801311818.AA26294 at world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: >> From: "Steven M. Schultz" > >> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to >> something a bit better? I would think so but don't know for sure) >> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get >> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips >> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time. > > I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the > driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte. Sure. UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high async interrupt performance. >> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand >> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600 >> baud serial line I'd think. > > they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes The 16540 has only one byte buffer. > and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes. > That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there > is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it. That's more to the point. Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20. I regularly get 50-60k interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer, and I think the printer is the limiting factor there. > >> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'. An 11/44 is about .6 mips >> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a >> 286. > > No comparison. My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k. > the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween. > In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus. > > My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02) > are all lower priority. Again there is no problem unless the system is > real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not > ack'd. Have you modified the kernel? Normally disks will preempt ttys. > Its byte timing. the bits are handled at the uart. But your right > my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM. Ah. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25590 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:21:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25585 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:21:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA28197; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA07172; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199802010420.AA07172 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk <> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes < and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes. < ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:04 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12606 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802010747.SAA12606 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to: RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks. RP03 disks. RK05 disks. RL01 and RL02 disks. Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources. I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is installed, you will be able to do: $ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf - and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up. I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-) Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28785 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:07 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28780 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23220 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802020344.OAA23220 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s. This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on. I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be vanilla V7 and should work with no problems. A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD (again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install code would need to change. Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the RL02 problems?!! Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01650 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01645 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24121 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802022204.JAA24121 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Swedish PUPS To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Did I send this PDP message on to the list? Warren ----- Forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- From: beast@lintilla2.df.lth.se Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100 Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788 at sylvester.> To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: PUPS Membership Hi PDP lovers! My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden. I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones. Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS. IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw. I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25 has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help? Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs) and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations). In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it. I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long time. =) Regards! /Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center ----- End of forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se ----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02592 for pups-liszt; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:49:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02587 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:49:33 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00421 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:05 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802030450.PAA00421 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:04 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now. The next version is at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10966 for pups-liszt; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from webchat2.wbs.net (ws3.wbs.net [207.88.172.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10961 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:06:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from bob at localhost) by webchat2.wbs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA06845; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lash To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. These worked exactly as billed. If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. Best wishes, Bob Lash bob at wbs.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST From: Bob Armstrong To: bob at wbs.net Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget to tell you tomorrow: 1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity. 2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot. The unix boot program will print an "@" almost immediately. [This is really annoying, because the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think that the machine has crashed!] 3) Type "unix" and RETURN. This is the kernel name, and when you are able to build your own kernels you can type a different name. If you make any typos you'll have to reboot. The boot pretends that you can try again if you make a mistake, but don't believe it! 3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:". Enter ^Z (not ^D!) to start time sharing. 4) It will prompt for the date and time. Note that the date doesn't give you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework, did you :-) 5) You'll get a "login:" prompt. The password to root is "pdp". 6) You're on your own. Have fun! Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you try your first boot with the pack write locked. Unix will panic right after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the hardware works. Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first. This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if you shut down without syncing. Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13383 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13378 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:58:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09626 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802182259.JAA09626 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Bob Lash: > I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob > Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02 > pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :) > > Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. > These worked exactly as billed. > > If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. > Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The > part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type. > > Bob Lash > bob at wbs.net Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-) On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license. All this for a 20-year old piece of software! This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas, and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from George Colouris in England and read its contents? Cheers all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14215 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:16:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from csc.com (explorer.csc.com [20.1.10.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14210 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:16:29 +1100 (EST) Received: by csc.com via sendmail with stdio id for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 18 Feb 98 22:14 EST (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.9 built 21-apr-97) Message-Id: From: rmsmith@csc.com (Robert Smith) Subject: Re: V7 on a PDP-11/23+ To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:14:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802182259.JAA09626 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 19, 98 09:59:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Thanks for tweaking the list! Holidays were great in the DC area (USA). Weather was NICE. Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on my cars instead of my 11s. The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble. The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a little run. Brakes are acting up. Rain prevents getting at that in the driveway. With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!! waiting for Linux!! thanks! bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from asd ([209.1.236.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14926 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by shared1-mail.whowhere.com id <37014-251>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:08 -0800 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 From: "Michael Kraus" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) X-Sender-Ip: 203.34.247.61 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA16207 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (beavis.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA16202 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:46:28 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (blv-lx104-ip6.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.106]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27383; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890 at halcyon.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kraus CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE" Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/ The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted. You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies. There isn't any networking support. Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA and a transceiver. ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS software, which can do DECNET. Dave Michael Kraus wrote: > > G'day All... > > In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. > > I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local > network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, > and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). > > Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in > which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the > terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). > > I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. > > Anyone who can help, please let me know. > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for David C. Jenner Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: David C. Jenner n: Jenner;David C. adr: 3153 N.E. 84th Street;;;Seattle;WA;98115-4717;USA email;internet: djenner at halcyon.com tel;fax: 206-527-2019 tel;home: 206-527-2018 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------48A4162B546B92E9B3B913DE-- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16813 for pups-liszt; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:37:00 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16808 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:36:55 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10590 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:37:51 +1100 (EST) Received: from csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.20.6]) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10240 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:35:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (octarine-253.cc.adfa.oz.au [131.236.253.20]) by csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24750 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.160]) by octarine.cc.adfa.oz.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04446 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:53 +1100 (EST) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14931 for pups-liszt; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:14 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from asd ([209.1.236.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA14926 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:34:07 +1100 (EST) Received: by shared1-mail.whowhere.com id <37014-251>; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:08 -0800 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700 From: "Michael Kraus" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11) X-Sender-Ip: 203.34.247.61 Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk G'day All... In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine. I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it, and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter). Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the terminal and printer for it though). (FYI I'm located in Sydney). I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet. Anyone who can help, please let me know. Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA25372 for pups-liszt; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:27 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA25367 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:28:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11916 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:28:14 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09227; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:19 +0100 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi gang! Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk to make it bootable? IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps be used to ship things in... Comments anyone? /Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26798 for pups-liszt; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:13 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26793 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:43:08 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA15297; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:15 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802222144.IAA15297 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: Putting that UNIX on hardware To: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Beastly Wolf: > Hi gang! > > Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd? > Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file. > Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and > then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it. > Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02. > Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to > put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk > to make it bootable? I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this. The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going. > IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it? > If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party? ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt > IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen > for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it. > Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =) Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!! Thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01182 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01177 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17631 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802240036.LAA17631 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which could be affected by the license clauses. I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO. I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've agreed with the draft license terms. More news as soon as I have it.... Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02247 for pups-liszt; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02242 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:04:34 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12007 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:04:28 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA12154; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:37 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Project generate RL02. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi again gang! It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware with dd, as my theory went. So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig. I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat. Here goes: My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50, DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think). I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system. What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the RL02 controller was the same. Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though. Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt. I do not have a drive connected though. I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector. No go. Same message. I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have! So here is the problem: What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the line? Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers laying about! =) ). If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL kinda rack and is hard to service. /Lars Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA03167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:47:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03162 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 01:47:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA07221; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA20016; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199802241447.AA20016 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: Project generate RL02. Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:30:20 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA03005; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9802241629.AA03005 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: Project generate RL02. To: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016 at world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not > usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane > only! Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a RLV11 set to a uVax. Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes! The 18-bit-ness of the RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome like, say, the RXV21. > > likely yes, the drive must be connected. Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like 2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have my RL units #0 when booting. To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380: Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380) Description: 1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0 is connected to the system at boot time. Repeat-by: 1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive 0 not present. 'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as a result the rl driver will not be attached. Fix: 1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for an interrupt. This is the same thing which is done in the TS11 probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not online. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04419 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04414 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:15 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22990 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802242217.JAA22990 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- All, Here is the DRAFT of the license for the PDP-11 versions of UNIX. Please treat this as a IN CONFIDENCE email and do not pass it on to other people. If you have any adverse comments, pass them back to the mailing list as well as Dion Johnson. Warren - ----- Forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- DRAFT - for discussion purposes - comments to dionj at sco.com please, and to Warren Toomey, et al, as you see fit. Please do not distribute this widely. -Dion Dion L. Johnson II - The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. dionj at sco.com Czar of Free Stuff and Technical customers' advocate. 400 Encinal St. Santa Cruz, CA 95061 FAX: 408-427-5417 Voice: 408-427-7565 ============================================================================== Agreement Number: ________________ THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT A. THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC., a California corporation (SCO), having an office at 400 Encinal Street, Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900 and LICENSEE, as defined in the signature block of this Agreement agree that, as of the Effective Date hereof, as defined in Section 7.1, the terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement shall apply to use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement. B. SCO makes certain licensing rights for SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS available under this Agreement, including rights to make and use DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS. Such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is identified in Section 3 of this Agreement . C. This Agreement sets forth the entire agreement and understanding between the parties as to the subject matter hereof and merge all prior discussions between them, and neither of the parties shall be bound by any conditions, definitions, warranties, understandings or representations with respect to such subject matter other than as expressly provided herein or as duly set forth on or subsequent to the date of acceptance hereof in writing and signed by a proper and duly authorized representative of the party to be bound thereby. No provision appearing on any form originated by LICENSEE shall be applicable unless such provision is expressly accepted in writing by an authorized representative of SCO. F. The AUTHORIZED COUNTRY for this Agreement shall be ______________________. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have caused this Agreement to be executed by their duly authorized representatives. LICENSEE: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. __________________________________ By:_________________________________ (Name) __________________________________ ____________________________________ (Address) (Title) __________________________________ ____________________________________ (Address) (Date) __________________________________ (By) __________________________________ (Print or Type Name __________________________________ (Title) I. DEFINITIONS 1.1 AUTHORIZED COUNTRY means one or more countries specified on page 1 of this Agreement. 1.2 CPU means a computer having one or more processing units and a single global memory space. 1.3 COMPUTER PROGRAM means any instruction or instructions for controlling the operation of a CPU. 1.4 DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT means COMPUTER PROGRAMS in OBJECT CODE format based on a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. 1.5 DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. 1.6 OBJECT CODE means a COMPUTER PROGRAM in binary form, resulting from the compilation of SOURCE CODE by computer or compiler into machine executable code and which is in a form of computer programs not convenient to human understanding of the program logic, but which is appropriate for execution or interpretation by computer. 1.7 SOURCE CODE means COMPUTER PROGRAMS written in certain programming languages in electronic media form and in a form convenient for reading and review by a trained individual, such as a printed or written listing of programs, containing specific algorithms, instructions, plans, routines and the like, for controlling the operation of a computer system, but which is not in a form that would be suitable for execution directly on computer hardware. 1.8 SOURCE CODE PRODUCT means a SCO software offering, primarily in SOURCE CODE form. Such offering may also include OBJECT CODE components. 1.9 SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEM means a SCO software offering that is (i) specifically designed for a 16-Bit computer, or (ii) the 32V version, and (ii) specifically excludes UNIX System V and successor operating systems. 2. GRANT OF RIGHTS 2.1 (a) SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely for personal use (as restricted in Section 2.1(b)) and solely on or in conjunction with DESIGNATED CPUs, and/or Networks of CPUs, licensed by LICENSEE through this SPECIAL SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. Such right to use includes the right to modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, provided that any such modification or DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that contains any part of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this Agreement is treated hereunder the same as such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. SCO claims no ownership interest in any portion of such a modification or DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that is not part of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. (b) Personal use is limited to noncommercial uses. Any such use made in connection with the development of enhancements or modifications to SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS is permitted only if (i) neither the results of such use nor any enhancement or modification so developed is intended primarily for the benefit of a third party and (ii) any copy of any such result, enhancement or modification, furnished by LICENSEE to a third party holder of an equivalent Software License with SCO where permitted by Section 8.4(b) below, is furnished for no more than the cost of reproduction and shipping. Any such copy that includes any portion of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be subject to the provisions of such Section 8.4. (c) LICENSEE may produce printed and on-line copies of documentation included with the SOURCE CODE PRODUCT as necessary for use with the DESIGNATED CPUs. All copies must include a legally sufficient copyright notice and a statement that the documents include a portion or all of SCO's copyrighted documentation, which is being reproduced with permission. (d) Commercial use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS or of any result, enhancement or modification associated with the use of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS under this Agreement is not permitted. Such commercial use is permissible only pursuant to the terms of an appropriate commercial software agreement between SCO or a corporate affiliate thereof and LICENSEE. For purposes of this Agreement, commercial use includes, but is not limited to, furnishing copies to third parties in a manner not permitted by Section 8.4(b). (e) SCO also grants LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and nonexclusive right to make copies of DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS and, subject to U. S. Government export requirements and to Section 8.4(b), to furnish such copies directly to other LICENSEES who have an equivalent Software License with SCO before or at the time of furnishing each copy of a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT. 2.2 (a) Any notice acknowledging a contribution of a third party appearing in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be included in corresponding portions of DERIVED BINARY PRODUCTS made by LICENSEE. (b) Each portion of a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT shall include an appropriate copyright notice. Such copyright notice may be the copyright notice or notices appearing in or on the corresponding portions of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCT on which such DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT is based or, if copyrightable changes are made in developing such DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT, a copyright notice identifying the owner of such changes. 2.3 No right is granted hereunder to use any trademark of SCO (or a corporate affiliate thereof). However, LICENSEE must state in packaging, labeling or other wise that a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT is derived from SCO's software under license from SCO and identify such software (including any trademark, provided the proprietor of the trademark is appropriately identified). LICENSEE agrees not to use a name or trademark for a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT that is confusingly similar to a name or trademark used by SCO (or a corporate affiliate thereof). 2.4 A single back-up CPU may be used as a substitute for the DESIGNATED CPU without notice to SCO during any time when such DESIGNATED CPU is inoperative because it is malfunctioning or undergoing repair, maintenance or other modification. 3. LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems, including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating systems: 16-Bit UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 32-bit 32V 4. DELIVERY SCO makes no guarantees or commitments that any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is available from SCO. If available, SCO will, within a reasonable time after SCO receives the fee specified in this Agreement for a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, furnish to LICENSEE one (1) copy of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. 5. EXPORT 5.1 LICENSEE agrees that it will not, without the prior written consent of SCO, export, directly or indirectly, SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS covered by this Agreement to any country outside of the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY. 5.2 LICENSEE hereby assures SCO that it does not intend to and will not knowingly, without the prior written consent, if required, of the Office of Export Administration of the U.S. Department of Commerce, Washington, D.C. 20230, transmit, directly or indirectly: (i) any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this Agreement; or (ii) any immediate product (including processes) produced directly by the use of any such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT; to Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce. 5.3 LICENSEE agrees that its obligations under Sections 5.1 and 5.2 shall survive and continue after any termination of rights under this Agreement. 6. FEES AND TAXES 6.1 In consideration for the rights granted to LICENSEE for use of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS identified in Section 3 above, LICENSEE shall pay to SCO a one-time Right-to-Use Fee of US$100.00 for the DESIGNATED CPUs at the time this Agreement is returned to SCO for final execution. 6.2 Payment to SCO shall be made in United States dollars to SCO at the address specified in Section 8.8(a). 6.3 LICENSEE shall pay all taxes (and any related interest or penalty), however designated, imposed as a result of the existence or operation of this Agreement, including, but not limited to, any tax which LICENSEE is required to withhold or deduct from payment to SCO, except (i) any tax imposed upon SCO (or a corporate affiliate thereof) in the jurisdiction in which the aforesaid office of LICENSEE is located if such tax is allowable as a credit against United States income taxes of SCO (or such an affiliate) and (ii) any income tax imposed upon SCO (or such an affiliate) by the United States or any governmental entity within the United States proper (the fifty (50) states and the District of Columbia). To assist in obtaining the credit identified in (i) of this Section 5.05, LICENSEE shall furnish SCO with such evidence as may be required by United States taxing authorities to establish that any such tax has been paid. The Fee specified in Section 6.1 above do not include taxes. If SCO is required to collect a tax to be paid by LICENSEE, LICENSEE shall pay such tax to SCO on demand. 7. TERM 7.1 This Agreement shall become effective on and as of the date of acceptance by SCO. The initial term of this Agreement shall be for one (1) year. Thereafter, the Agreement will automatically renew for successive one (1) year terms unless either party gives the other, no later than ninety (90) days before the end of the initial term, or then current extension, written notice of its intent to terminate this Agreement. Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to require either party to extend this Agreement beyond the initial term or any subsequent term. 7.2 LICENSEE may terminate its rights under this Agreement by written notice to SCO certifying that LICENSEE has discontinued use of and returned or destroyed, at SCO's option, all copies of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement. 7.3 If LICENSEE fails to fulfill one or more of its obligations under this Agreement, SCO may, upon its election and in addition to any other remedies it might have, at any time terminate all the rights granted by it hereunder by not less than two (2) months' written notice to LICENSEE specifying any such breach, unless within the period of such notice all breaches specified therein shall have been remedied; upon such termination LICENSEE shall immediately discontinue use of and return or destroy, at SCO's option, all copies of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in its possession. 7.4 In the event of termination of LICENSEE's rights under Sections 7.2 or 7.3, (i) all fees that LICENSEE has become obligated to pay shall become immediately due and payable and (ii) SCO shall have no obligation to refund any amounts paid to it hereunder. 8. MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS 8.1 This Agreement shall prevail notwithstanding any conflicting terms or legends which may appear in a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. 8.2 If, and only if, SCO is the entity that provides SOURCE CODE PRODUCT to LICENSEE, SCO warrants for a period of ninety (90) days from furnishing a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT to LICENSEE hereunder, that any magnetic medium on which portions of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT are furnished will be free under normal use from defects in materials, workmanship or recording. If such a defect appears within such warranty period LICENSEE may return the defective medium for replacement without charge. Replacement is LICENSEE's sole remedy with respect to such a defect. SCO also warrants that it is empowered to grant the rights granted herein. SCO and other developers make no other representations or warranties, expressly or impliedly. By way of example but not of limitation, SCO and other developers make no representations or warranties of merchantability or fitness for any particular purpose, or that the use of any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT will not infringe any patent, copyright or trademark. SCO and other developers shall not be held to any liability with respect to any claim by LICENSEE, or a third party on account of, or arising from, the use of any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. 8.3 Neither the execution of this Agreement nor anything in any SOURCE CODE PRODUCT shall be construed as an obligation upon SCO or any other developer to furnish any person, including LICENSEE, any assistance of any kind whatsoever, or any information or documentation. 8.4 (a) LICENSEE agrees that it shall hold all parts of the SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement in confidence for SCO. LICENSEE further agrees that should it make such disclosure of any or all of such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS (including methods or concepts utilized therein) to anyone to whom such disclosure is necessary to the use for which rights are granted hereunder, LICENSEE shall appropriately notify each such person to whom any such disclosure is made that such disclosure is made in confidence and shall be kept in confidence and have each such person sign a confidentiality agreement containing restrictions on disclosure substantially similar to those set forth herein. If LICENSEE should become aware of a violation of SCO's intellectual property and/or proprietary rights, LICENSEE shall promptly notify SCO and cooperate with SCO in such enforcement. If information relating to a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT subject to this Agreement at any time becomes available without restriction to the general public by acts not attributable to LICENSEE, LICENSEE's obligations under this section shall not apply to such information after such time. (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 8.4(a), LICENSEE may make available copies of a SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, either in modified or unmodified form, to third parties in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY having Source Code Licenses of the same scope herewith from SCO for the same SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, if and only if (i) LICENSEE first requests verification the status of the recipient by contacting SCO at the address contained in Section 8.8(b) or other number specified by SCO, and (ii) SCO gives written verification of the recipient's software license status. LICENSEE shall maintain a record of each such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT made available. 8.5 (a) On SCO's request, but not more frequently than annually, LICENSEE shall furnish to SCO a statement, listing the location, type and serial number of the DESIGNATED CPU hereunder and stating that the use by LICENSEE of SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS subject to this Agreement has been reviewed and that each such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT is being used solely on the DESIGNATED CPU (or temporarily on a back-up CPU) for such SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS in full compliance with the provisions of this Agreement. (b) SCO shall have the right, upon reasonable notice to LICENSEE and through SCO's accredited auditing representative, to make an on-site inspection during normal business hours, not more frequently than annually, of all LICENSEE's CPUs to determine that SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS are being used solely on the DESIGNATED CPU and are used solely for personal purposes as authorized under this Agreement. 8.6 The obligations of LICENSEE under Section 8.4 shall survive and continue after any termination of rights under this Agreement. 8.7 Neither this Agreement nor any rights hereunder, in whole or in part, shall be assignable or otherwise transferable by LICENSEE and any purported assignment or transfer shall be null and void. 8.8 (a) Payments to SCO under this Agreement shall be made payable and sent to: CHECK DRAWN ON U.S. BANK TO: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. P.O. Box 7745 San Francisco, CA 94120-7745 (b) Correspondence with SCO relating to this Agreement shall be sent to: THE SANTA CRUZ OPERATION, INC. 400 Encinal Street Santa Cruz, California 95061-1900 United States of America Attention: Law and Corporate Affairs (c) Any statement, notice, request or other communication shall be deemed to be sufficiently given to the addressee and any delivery hereunder deemed made when sent by certified mail addressed to LICENSEE at its office specified in this Agreement or to SCO at the appropriate address specified in this Section 7.7. Each party to this Agreement may change an address relating to it by written notice to the other party. 8.9 LICENSEE shall obtain all approvals from any governmental authority in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY required to effectuate this Agreement according to its terms, including any such approvals required for LICENSEE to make payments to SCO pursuant to this Agreement. LICENSEE shall bear all expenses associated with obtaining such approvals. 8.10 The construction and performance of this Agreement shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, USA. SCO-Soft. Sp.-022498 - ----- End of forwarded message from Dion Johnson ----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNPNG8UbObQUa2Z5FAQHpegP+NVXKbrF3mci56ivf05oBGu/vdaHS8vws 7OZH/C7i1iz9XvDSPqjlI/PzMl5NSeep2B6TcMgg/qzNAel2bOJK41I9h7R3YrzC IgB0bRE5A2ZbkxkKlp2mIc7gwdTfN6eeKIsPfFaoQJn4WZsJwQu0eym33gf86LkE 5luusgBe5Uk= =otzx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05224 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:34 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05219 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:30 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23864 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802250305.OAA23864 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923 at rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Chris Drake: > Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable... > A couple of questions, though: > > - it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more > than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset. Or > is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee? > > - this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of > the OS specified. Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee? > > - Chris Drake I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions (e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.) The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries. I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as: All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1 to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Hope this helps, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05244 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05239 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:25 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23877 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802250308.OAA23877 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622 at world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Allison J Parent: > Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the > media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media > (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 > including machine readable media that would be something more > agreeable. > > What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for > that vversion on media? I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can distribute the image with every license. If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05398 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:00 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05393 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:33:56 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23908 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802250335.OAA23908 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies? To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III. Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive? Thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05409 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:25 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05404 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10601; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA27075; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:12 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources References: <199802250259.AA24622 at world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Allison J Parent: >> Overall not bad. The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the >> media cost is not out of line. Still VMS can be had for FREE and media >> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US. If the all up price were $100 >> including machine readable media that would be something more >> agreeable. >> >> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for >> that vversion on media? > > I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion > is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest > to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can > distribute the image with every license. How many CDs are we looking at? Maybe I can arrange something. > If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided > we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are > going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise. Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification". Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05534 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05529 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:28 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24047 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802250358.OAA24047 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP-11 Applications To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dear All, I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems. I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977. Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB. Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix are on the 'net?? If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD. Ta, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05636 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:16 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05631 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:19:12 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24149 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:20:41 +1100 (EST) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05560 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:07:15 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10639 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA27233; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems. Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other. I've added a new user with vipw. When I try to change the password, I get this: login: root Password: Last login: Sat Aug 9 02:25:12 on console 2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST [1] root--> passwd grog Changing password for grog. New password: Retype new password: passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged. [2] root--> If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine. But that way I can't change my password. Any ideas? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06632 for pups-liszt; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06627 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:05 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id HAA27331; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA07228; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:05:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:05:50 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199802251205.AA07228 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:57:09 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25252 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802252158.IAA25252 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: System III (fwd) To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain ----- >From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Bain X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: Alan Bain To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: System III Message-ID: I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!). Hope you track down a copy.... I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5 versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it. There may have even been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here. The CL are hopelessly disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain proprietary software. However I now have access to a half inch drive on a sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also). If anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them. Alan Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08405 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08400 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:10:43 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25371 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802252212.JAA25371 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F at pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Paul McJones: > Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been > published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated > cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to > me. Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th > edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with > SCO's latest? No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers as designated CPUs. They probably did this to: + minimise the work they had to do, and + prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant: e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example). That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!! [Maybe I'm just being paranoid here]. Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU restriction in the new license. I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen. Mind you, don't hold him to that! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08480 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:40 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08475 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:35:37 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25560 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802252237.JAA25560 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Dion in SCO says: > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd > be prepared to do this? > Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and > free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already > have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. > > E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a > filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS > society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out > how to service the new guy. Would that work? So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08656 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:44 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08651 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11743; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA01636; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <199802252237.JAA25560 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > Dion in SCO says: > >> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd >> be prepared to do this? > >> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and >> free stuff programs to do this. I was hoping you enthusiasts already >> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed. >> >> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a >> filled out license form. Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS >> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out >> how to service the new guy. Would that work? > > So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO > license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-) Don't say I didn't tell you. I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08684 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08679 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25775 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > Don't say I didn't tell you. Oh, I was expecting this. > I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. > Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a > period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the > CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. > I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, > and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of > tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write > (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. I'd like to see: + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd need the volunteers to have PGP too. If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. We're going to have to work on this in the next few months. Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09286 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:35 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09236 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:00:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11810; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA01823; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <19980226095434.51853 at freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=wLpm8qysLVxtbajz X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > > Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > > I'd like to see: > >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. >> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > > in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Europe and UK separately, eh? > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to be limited to DOS-style naming. > As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably > via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd > need the volunteers to have PGP too. Not a problem. > If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc. > You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution. Seems reasonable. Greg -- Greg Lehey LEMIS grog at lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3ia mQCNAzTb3SMAAAEEAMS8rCMuqbX0llo8lPuE+m1/bHTNN4q3o2OFi1t9WXlYd063 XslucmHTYRk+f0OznRpcAuyr1pvYqfnl0Gi5uys/CopKiwaouXZYjSW6PzVnTQza QJKuQwlpSUJhrcj9qXn5CW6FCLRXRcZdSezTZmDPV2jKXadD30ciy96pXaeVAAUR tA5ncm9nQGxlbWlzLmNvbYkAlQMFEDTb3SRHIsveqV2nlQEBnbQD+wf6JL7GgPbM Ql+TK9ZpYUBo+brvkg4GdgWVHbiHEue8dxm0vgEB+K4GpCJEYAx+x6L7ZM4iF4Nv axzS1UrVru9IYforM51jODk4mxZAySTspIbEzmBTY5/7N2i3b4kkiqeCdVKTy2c2 fwkb1+F6EZXY8xaxIFtu3NGRxR0Pd2Am =M7yb -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBNPSwjkciy96pXaeVAQEgtgP/Qnhw4BNOveBwTgF/kOjc0GO/kkXaMMy1 vgsjWjJDlSsoN7wsI/7Nk2pLlrSfLQ7IM2lrMHOJ8CP1CP/UevcaRGeLIXFk7FNA sF/53EXOk+unWEnqMdxK62ihWToXUpJDC3bG7XtkxndeqnJOCDOazkx2tzi9HZO/ 9UkX6U4MXNo= =szjT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wLpm8qysLVxtbajz-- Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA09900 for pups-liszt; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:37:42 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from csc.com (explorer.csc.com [20.1.10.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA09895 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:37:33 +1100 (EST) Received: by csc.com via sendmail with stdio id for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 25 Feb 98 19:36 EST (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.9 built 21-apr-97) Message-Id: From: rmsmith@csc.com (Robert Smith) Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802252212.JAA25371 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 26, 98 09:12:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Warren, and the rest of us! Thanks! Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would with the license discussion! I will take what I can get to be legal! Thanks for all the work on this!! bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12525 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:56 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from aiai.ed.ac.uk (eigg.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.41.7]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12520 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:57:49 +1100 (EST) Received: from dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk [129.215.105.17]) by aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07382; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:40 GMT Received: (tfb at localhost) by dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id PAA13264; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT Message-Id: <199802261557.PAA13264 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> From: Tim Bradshaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> References: <199802242217.JAA22990 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under 19.14 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of stuff from System V?). I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs 4.2 (not a vax...). I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way. Does anyone know what the real story is? --tim -- Tim Bradshaw, System Manager, Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute, University of Edinburgh Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13228 for pups-liszt; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13222 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:21:50 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA26835 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199802262023.HAA26835 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264 at dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Tim Bradshaw: > I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read > this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of > the 4BSD releases as well. Of course all the recent ones are free > already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're > derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of > stuff from System V?). No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the 4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax. Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs, and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get out licenses?! P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license? I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17819 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:28 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA17814 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:24:21 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25828; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199802271907.LAA25828 at moe.2bsd.com> To: grog at lemis.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Howdy - > From: Greg Lehey > I can volunteer for this. The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500 > (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi. Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150? I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work at all. The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes). I can make TK25 tapes. I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)). > > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm > > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. > > Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's > a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. You've me to thank for that ;-) > That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM > wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and applied. > One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses > RockRidge format (UNIX long file names). It would be a real pain to Of course! There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that need help with long filenames or deep directories. Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18053 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:54 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from post.mail.demon.net (ehp-1.mail.demon.net [193.195.0.154]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA18048 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:38:48 +1100 (EST) Received: from falstaf.demon.co.uk ([158.152.152.109]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa0125289; 27 Feb 98 20:38 GMT Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: PDP Unix Preservation From: Robin Birch Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 3.05 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In message <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey writes >> Don't say I didn't tell you. > >Oh, I was expecting this. > >> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people. >> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a >> period of time, during which there would be updates. In addition, the >> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape. >> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM, >> and tapes for those who want it on tape. I can offer a variety of >> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write >> (what's that? 1600bpi?), but not WORMs. > >I'd like to see: > > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes > + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels > Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73. This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage is reimbursed. Robin PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future. Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20210 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20205 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:35:40 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04807; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:29 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA15673; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:29 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Steven M. Schultz" , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <199802271907.LAA25828 at moe.2bsd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828 at moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Howdy - > >> From: Greg Lehey >>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm >>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year. >> >> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's >> a lost hope. There have been three in the past two months alone. > > You've me to thank for that ;-) Indeed. Thanks. >> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go. WORM >> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand. > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > applied. Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff to be up to date? Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20480 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:47 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20475 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:17:42 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA20644; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:38 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9802280417.AA20644 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861 at freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. > > The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either > > FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD > > then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and > > applied. > > Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred > CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff > to be up to date? You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20523 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:41 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20518 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:39:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05019; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA16706; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Shoppa , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely References: <19980228120528.31861 at freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644 at alph02.triumf.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644 at alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote: >>> I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'. >>> The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either >>> FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM. Once a system is loaded from CD >>> then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and >>> applied. >> >> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred >> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff >> to be up to date? > > You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that > he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one. > > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved, it might be easier to burn WORMs. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20542 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20537 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:44:06 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00780; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199802280443.UAA00780 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Tim - > What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing > updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD? The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;) > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? > It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the ISO9660 filesystem. Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading in popularity. > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20703 for pups-liszt; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:33 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA20698 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:07:28 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA30497; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:22 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9802280607.AA30497 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just under a megabyte per second. In other words: damn fast. (Fast 7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second). Booting from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54. I posted some benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago. > I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive > for my 11 - they're nice. I don't like the DB25 style of cable > that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the > rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox. That aren't all that rare. You just have to go someplace other than Fry's, that's all :-). > > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution. > > Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up > with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to > the 11/73. Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not > with the Emulex UC08. For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000 > appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect > the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives). > The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs > at drives that don't do variable record mode. Do the CMD adaptors > do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices? The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size- block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized "virtual" blocks. (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you automagically.) > > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable > > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible. I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will > > Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the > ISO9660 filesystem. That's OK. The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like 4 512-byte blocks. And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem; if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down. I've built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way. > > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? > > It'll panic. For a couple reasons: pipes are implemented via > the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes > needs a rw filesystem. And a swap area is needed. If there's > memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but > argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of > swap space. It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:). > but it's not > clear to me it'd be worth the trouble. It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-). I find the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)