* RQDX3 software interleave
@ 2000-06-07 20:07 Jason T. Miller
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Jason T. Miller @ 2000-06-07 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
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> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
> with it, ...
I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even
considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to
do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in
systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to
do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for
the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon,
though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like
much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd
like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest
_that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and
leave it at that.
> What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to
write
> and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it
doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural
and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much
fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my
employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system.
And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an
experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as
long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8"
diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks
the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you
think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy
driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the
data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in
assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA
device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
single density and data in DD?
Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing
working soon.
-jtm
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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Roger Ivie <rivie@teraglobal.com>
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
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> Speaking of PITA
>device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
>single density and data in DD?
Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.
--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation
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Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
To: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
In-Reply-To: <200006071536.RAA01882 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Jun 07, 2000 05:36:43 PM
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> > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
> NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
> is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
> good OS, free, modern, ...
True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters (minor VAXen, MIPSen, Sun68ken,
etc.) in my basement. But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of
a 4.3BSD. I once sat down and loaded up 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, 4.4, 4.4Lite2
(mostly) on my RT's, and you could really tell the difference as the bloat
transcended out of the 4.3 arena. On a 12.5 mhz box, you can feel the
difference (what about a MVII at its liesurely pace?). So, I do think
it would be a reasonable effort to keep something like a tiny 4.3 system
afloat for the older and the newer toyz. Whether or not it is practical,
or we have the time to do that... who knows.... mebbie, at least for some
historical play.
I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old
toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}...
Bob
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Subject: Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive
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> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
> David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
> archive area, mail list as required.
What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this?
IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an
IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were
interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes.....
Bob
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From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia@hackaholic.org>
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Subject: unix precursors
Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000
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I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
unix?
Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that
Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal
article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.
Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and
only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I
can learn more?
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From: Cyrille Lefevre <root@gits.dyndns.org>
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Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am"
To: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST)
CC: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Reply-To: clefevre at citeweb.net
Organization: ACME
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jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>
> > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated,
> This is what I was waiting for. ;-)
>
> > and won't fit on an RD53.
> I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
> And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
> hany. ;-)
>
> > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will.
> Hmm.
>
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
>
> The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
> mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2.
you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the
pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar.
> > Go to
> >
> > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
> Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
> version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.
Cyrille.
--
home: mailto:clefevre at citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at edf.fr
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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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On 7 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
> True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters
Ahh. I thought that you did not know about the new (puh, it is more
than 1/2 year old) developements in DMA SCSI on VAXstations...
> But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD.
...as I do like the leanness of NetBSD on i386...
I dont like this bloated, i386 centric wants-to-be-*ix from Finland...
Hmmm. And my TK50 is broken so I can not get 4.3BSD on my MVII without
slaughtering my TK50Z... :-(
> I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old
> toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}...
Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
This is pure luxury.
I think we are moving more and more away from the sbject of this list.
EOT
--
tsch��,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006072246.AA16781 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
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Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> This is pure luxury.=20
And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build
new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on
them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag!
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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From: Eric Fischer <enf@pobox.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: unix precursors
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> Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that
> Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
> rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal
> article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.
The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental
Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which
describes an early version of the system (where command arguments
were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS
Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962.
The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_,
which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965,
by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should
be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is
more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages.
The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line
updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition
was published.
You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar,
for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command.
> Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
> current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and
> only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I
> can learn more?
You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User
Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at
http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html
Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html
but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at
the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that
the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
the software it describes.
eric
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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"A. P. Garcia" wrote:
> does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?
On CTSS:
F. J. Corbato et al.
"An Experimental Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344.
P. A. Crisman
The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed.
MIT Press, 1965.
On the Berkeley Timesharing System:
W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196.
B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774.
This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of:
C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell
Computer Structures: Readings and Examples
Mc-Graw Hill, 1971
and this *entire* book is online at
"http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html"
(the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your
browser).
Happy reading :)
Paul
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
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Eric Fischer wrote:
>
> I've read somewhere that
> the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
> system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
> on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
> written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
> the software it describes.
The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives
another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system:
J.B. Dennis,
"A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research"
Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529.
BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
(BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system:
J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider
"A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer"
AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57.
Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame.
Paul
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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: jasomill at shaffstall.com, sms at moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
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Hi -
> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
> the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or
less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS
until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur.
> I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
> (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
Sigh.
Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the
ensuing compare error.
I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3.
I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33,
the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting
preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
remember.
Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from
the MSCP driver with
sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9
The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a
"ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and
correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came
up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the
'a' partition.
Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc)
was dd'd:
dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a
and almost immediately dd reported:
write: Read-only file system
2+0 records in
2+0 records out
That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
decrement the output count on a write error.
At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write
enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables
the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering
about that ;)
After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
compares identical to the input file.
The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted
from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is
*always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary
controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The
RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is
ra9 (second drive on the second controller).
> > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> > messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> >
> > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
>
> I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.
One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find
"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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Subject: Re: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf at localhost.localdomain>
From: lars brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org>
Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200
In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000"
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"A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia at hackaholic.org> writes:
> I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
> but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?
How about ITS, did it influence Unix?
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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Roger Ivie <rivie at teraglobal.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe@[10.10.50.26]>
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On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote:
> > Speaking of PITA
> >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
> >single density and data in DD?
>
> Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
> would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
> do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
> or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.
And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
only.
Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in
single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and
this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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To: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
cc: Roger Ivie <rivie at teraglobal.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave
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> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only
choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However,
if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to
it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8"
media will work just fine.
RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability.
Allison
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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400
From: Thor Lancelot Simon <tls@rek.tjls.com>
To: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968 at rek.tjls.com>
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In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
>
> > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > This is pure luxury.=20
>
> And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus
builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.
Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)
Thor
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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT
From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <0006081554.AA17948 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
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Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...]
It does.
> [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...]
Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did
plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else.
--
Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force
International Engineering and Science Task Force
615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
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