From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: jasomill@shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:07:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: RQDX3 software interleave Message-ID: > Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal > with it, ... I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon, though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest _that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and leave it at that. > What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write > and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you. Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system. And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8" diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in single density and data in DD? Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing working soon. -jtm Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA23073 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from ns1.teraglobal.com (ns1.teraglobal.com [63.210.171.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23069 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 06:56:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rivie at teraglobal.com) Received: from [10.10.50.26] (208.186.13.23) by ns1.teraglobal.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2.2); Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:54:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rivie at ns1.teraglobal.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au From: Roger Ivie Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Speaking of PITA >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in >single density and data in DD? Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. -- Roger Ivie rivie at teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23245 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu (uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.2.81]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23241 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:38:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) From: rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/EC02Jan97) id RAA29103; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006072136.RAA29103 at uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... To: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <200006071536.RAA01882 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Jun 07, 2000 05:36:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 TKL/POP PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........ > > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting......... > NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it > is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a > good OS, free, modern, ... True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters (minor VAXen, MIPSen, Sun68ken, etc.) in my basement. But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. I once sat down and loaded up 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, 4.4, 4.4Lite2 (mostly) on my RT's, and you could really tell the difference as the bloat transcended out of the 4.3 arena. On a 12.5 mhz box, you can feel the difference (what about a MVII at its liesurely pace?). So, I do think it would be a reasonable effort to keep something like a tiny 4.3 system afloat for the older and the newer toyz. Whether or not it is practical, or we have the time to do that... who knows.... mebbie, at least for some historical play. I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}... Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23316 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:56:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu (uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.2.81]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23312 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 07:56:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu) From: rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu Received: (from rdkeys at localhost) by uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/EC02Jan97) id RAA00453; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006072154.RAA00453 at uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: Hardware info in Unix Archive To: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <200006062223.IAA32518 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jun 07, 2000 08:23:20 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 TKL/POP PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group? > David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space, > archive area, mail list as required. What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this? IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an IBM RT related group. So far it seems about half a dozen folks were interested in the RT things. Let's see where it goes..... Bob Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23361 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from hackaholic.org (IDENT:qmailr at d130.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.130.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23356 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:05:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from apgarcia at hackaholic.org) Received: (qmail 395 invoked by uid 501); 7 Jun 2000 21:58:58 -0000 From: "A. P. Garcia" To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: unix precursors Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to unix? Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I can learn more? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23424 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:53 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from racine.cybercable.fr (racine.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.201]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23420 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:16:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from root at gits.dyndns.org) Received: (qmail 3677127 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: from r226m12.cybercable.tm.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([195.132.226.12]) (envelope-sender ) by racine.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Jun 2000 22:14:49 -0000 Received: (from root at localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA04762; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from root) From: Cyrille Lefevre Posted-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006072214.AAA04762 at gits.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am" To: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST) CC: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: clefevre at citeweb.net Organization: ACME X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7 at +30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL77 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, > This is what I was waiting for. ;-) > > > and won't fit on an RD53. > I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany... > And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very > hany. ;-) > > > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. > Hmm. > > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z > stand.Z: data > [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand > uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format > > The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive > mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar. > > Go to > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ > > Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted > to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The > version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre at citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at edf.fr Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23490 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de (sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de [131.246.137.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23486 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:23:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) From: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Received: from aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de ( exim at aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de [131.246.137.3] ) by sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de id aa26056 ; 8 Jun 2000 00:21 MESZ Received: from forelle32.wohnheim.uni-kl.de ([131.246.141.32] helo=unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) by aixs1.rhrk.uni-kl.de with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #2) id 12zoCe-000Alo-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 00:21:36 +0200 Received: from unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02836; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200006072221.AAA02836 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... To: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <200006072136.RAA29103 at uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On 7 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote: > True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters Ahh. I thought that you did not know about the new (puh, it is more than 1/2 year old) developements in DMA SCSI on VAXstations... > But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. ...as I do like the leanness of NetBSD on i386... I dont like this bloated, i386 centric wants-to-be-*ix from Finland... Hmmm. And my TK50 is broken so I can not get 4.3BSD on my MVII without slaughtering my TK50Z... :-( > I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old > toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}... Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". This is pure luxury. I think we are moving more and more away from the sbject of this list. EOT -- tsch��, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23608 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:49:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from ivan.Harhan.ORG (ivan.Harhan.ORG [207.55.197.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23604 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:49:21 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG) Received: by ivan.Harhan.ORG (5.61.1.1/1.36) id AA16781; Wed, 7 Jun 00 17:46:55 CDT Date: Wed, 7 Jun 00 17:46:55 CDT From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <0006072246.AA16781 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > This is pure luxury.=20 And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag! -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA23628 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23624 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:52:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from enf at shell-1.enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (enf at shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04229; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf at shell-1.enteract.com) Received: (from enf at localhost) by shell-1.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA82201; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from enf) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006072250.RAA82201 at shell-1.enteract.com> From: Eric Fischer To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS. I think that > Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as > rare as chicken teeth. I think he also wrote an earlier journal > article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate. The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which describes an early version of the system (where command arguments were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces). AFIPS Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962. The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_, which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965, by MIT Press. Both editions are in enough libraries you should be able to get them by interlibrary loan. The first edition is more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages. The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition was published. You will see many similarities to Unix. The arguments to tar, for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command. > Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its > current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System. That is the one and > only thing I have ever heard about this system. Anyone know where I > can learn more? You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at the University of California, Berkeley. I've read somewhere that the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run the software it describes. eric Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23737 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:35 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root at ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23733 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:37:26 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub at accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id QAA06080; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:35:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423 at accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700 From: Paul West X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "A. P. Garcia" CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" wrote: > does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? On CTSS: F. J. Corbato et al. "An Experimental Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344. P. A. Crisman The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed. MIT Press, 1965. On the Berkeley Timesharing System: W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction" Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196. B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle "A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System" Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774. This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of: C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell Computer Structures: Readings and Examples Mc-Graw Hill, 1971 and this *entire* book is online at "http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html" (the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your browser). Happy reading :) Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24483 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (root at ns2.accesscom.com [64.240.196.3]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24479 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:28:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from pdub at accesscom.com) Received: from accesscom.com (ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:26:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ns2.accesscom.com: Host ppp85.dialup.accesscom.com [64.240.200.85] claimed to be accesscom.com Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151 at accesscom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700 From: Paul West X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Fischer CC: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: <200006072250.RAA82201 at shell-1.enteract.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Eric Fischer wrote: > > I've read somewhere that > the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing > system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located > on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been > written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run > the software it describes. The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system: J.B. Dennis, "A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research" Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529. BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman (BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system: J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider "A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer" AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57. Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame. Paul Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25136 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25132 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sms at moe.2bsd.com) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA25310; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <200006080445.VAA25310 at moe.2bsd.com> To: jasomill at shaffstall.com, sms at moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From: "Jason T. Miller" > > Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should > It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of > the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with. Ah, thanks! I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur. > I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken > (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got Sigh. Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the ensuing compare error. I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3. I freshly formatted a floppy. That's one nice thing about the RX33, the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I remember. Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from the MSCP driver with sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9 The first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a "ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message. This is expected and correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the 'a' partition. Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc) was dd'd: dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a and almost immediately dd reported: write: Read-only file system 2+0 records in 2+0 records out That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but only successfully wrote one. A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't decrement the output count on a write error. At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write enabled. The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering about that ;) After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy compares identical to the input file. The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved 2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow). Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)? Well, the system is currently booted from a different controller (Emulex UC08). The boot controller is *always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is. The secondary controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'. The RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is ra9 (second drive on the second controller). > > Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP > > messages with the 'sysctl' command: > > > > sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X > > I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool. One more thing I stuffed into the system. You'll also find "sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago). Steven Schultz sms at moe.2bsd.com Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA25267 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from junk.nocrew.org (mail@[212.73.17.42]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25263 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:43:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from lars at junk.nocrew.org) Received: from lars by junk.nocrew.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au id 12zv4a-0003Tr-00; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: unix precursors References: From: lars brinkhoff Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000" Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf at junk.nocrew.org> Lines: 6 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk "A. P. Garcia" writes: > I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics, > but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to > unix? How about ITS, did it influence Unix? Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25534 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026 at Zeke.Update.uu.se [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25530 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:15:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bqt at Update.UU.SE) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15445; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Johnny Billquist To: Roger Ivie cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Speaking of PITA > >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in > >single density and data in DD? > > Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that > would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to > do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine > or format floppies you don't have to worry about it. And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives only. Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA26778 for pups-liszt; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26774 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:04:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from allisonp at world.std.com) From: allisonp@world.std.com Received: from world.std.com (allisonp at world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]) by europe.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14241; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (allisonp at localhost) by world.std.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08072; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT) To: Johnny Billquist cc: Roger Ivie , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: RQDX3 software interleave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to > control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of > the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives > only. IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends). However, if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8" media will work just fine. RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability. Allison Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27345 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from mail1.panix.com (mail1.panix.com [166.84.0.212]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27341 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:38:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from tls at panix.com) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [166.84.0.228]) by mail1.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1548310EA; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tls at localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.8/8.7.1/PanixN1.0) id LAA27539; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400 From: Thor Lancelot Simon To: Michael Sokolov Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968 at rek.tjls.com> Reply-To: tls at rek.tjls.com References: <0006072246.AA16781 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build". > > This is pure luxury.=20 > > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes. My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used. If Quasijarus builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all* for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower. I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex" processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work. Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is; I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when, pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-) Thor Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA27554 for pups-liszt; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au) Received: from ivan.Harhan.ORG (ivan.Harhan.ORG [207.55.197.4]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA27550 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:57:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG) Received: by ivan.Harhan.ORG (5.61.1.1/1.36) id AA17948; Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT Date: Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT From: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <0006081554.AA17948 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again.... Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > If Quasijarus > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...] It does. > [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all* > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...] Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else. -- Michael Sokolov Harhan Engineering Laboratory Public Service Agent International Free Computing Task Force International Engineering and Science Task Force 615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4 DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office) E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)