* [pups] Swap device in V6?
[not found] <3A9A97B5.4EBD13A4@tampabay.rr.com>
@ 2001-02-26 18:47 ` Bill Gunshannon
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Bill Gunshannon @ 2001-02-26 18:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
>
> So I'm missing something I guess.
>
Based on my recent experience with Ultrix-11 (which warns you not
to try and change the partiitioning on certain drive types as the
kernel has some references hard-coded) what you may be missing are
the devices for the individual partitions. Is there an equivalent
to MAKEDEV?? Ultrix uses a program named "msf" (for "make special
file") and so you never see what the partitioning layout is unless
you peek at the sources.
Good luck.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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From: Ian King <iking@microsoft.com>
To: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE at cc.usu.edu>
Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
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I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
but for C of this era I'm not sure. That call seems to succeed; it's a few
statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.
But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next.... -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
To: Roger Ivie
Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Roger Ivie wrote:
>
> Ian King said:
> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>
> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>
> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
that) and confirming it is a block device.
Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
still gripes about "no swap device."
So I'm missing something I guess.
-- Ken
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26 Feb 2001 12:04:53 MDT
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:04:53 -0600 (MDT)
From: Roger Ivie <IVIE@cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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Ian King wrote:
> But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
> execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
> able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.
Roger Ivie
ivie at cc.usu.edu
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From: Ian King <iking@microsoft.com>
To: "'Steven M. Schultz'" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Serial settings (was RE: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:06:07 -0800
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FWIW, I noticed that Unix V6 is happier with 7E1 for its console, too; I'm
using a terminal emulator, and was getting garbage from V6 (but had had no
problems with RSX-11). -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven M. Schultz [mailto:sms@moe.2bsd.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:22 AM
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
[snip]
> BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> UNIX I got garbage after "user mem = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> and this worked, but is it correct?
Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen@microwalt.nl>
To: "PUPS Mailing List (E-mail)" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] Ultrix-11 V3.1 hang on DEQNA ?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:41:07 +0100
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All,
I'm almost there. If only I can tell my 11/23+ _not_ to hang as soon
as I enable networking by configuring the Ethernet (qe0; DEQNA) card
with ifconfig.
Does anyone have docs regarding the DEQNA and/or DELQA so I can check the
board's physical settings?
Thx,
Fted
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:17:18 +0000
To: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
Cc: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE at cc.usu.edu>,
PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin@ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
Robin
In message <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9 at red-msg-06.redmond.
corp.microsoft.com>, Ian King <iking at microsoft.com> writes
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
>but for C of this era I'm not sure. That call seems to succeed; it's a few
>statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.
>
>But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
>execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
>able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
>
>I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next.... -- Ian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>
>Roger Ivie wrote:
>>
>> Ian King said:
>> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
>> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
>> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>>
>> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
>> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>>
>> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
>> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
>> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
>> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
>> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
>
>I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
>is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
>looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
>the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
>
>Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
>a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>-- Ken
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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From: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com>
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To: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
CC: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
References: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9 at red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <ZchHXUAOnrm6Ewzo at ruffnready.co.uk>
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I know I for one had forgotten just what "the state of the art" was with
UNIX back in 1975. If you can, please do look at the source for V6/ps.
Really. /dev/swap? In your dreams! B^) Cheers, -- Ken
Robin Birch wrote:
>
> In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
> device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
> isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
>
> Robin
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From: Ian King <iking@microsoft.com>
To: "'Robin Birch'" <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
Cc: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE at cc.usu.edu>,
PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0800
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I was wondering about that, as I've seen that sort of thing in other *nixes,
too. I tried creating a link to /dev/swap from /dev/rk0, and it didn't help
ps (same error message).
I'm going to figure out some way to print out ps.c later and trace through
it; I was going through it with ed on the PDP-11 (which was fun, in a
twisted, nostalgic sort of way). If I can figure out exactly how it's
looking for what it's looking for, perhaps I can figure out why it isn't
finding it. :-)
I've found the stuff on coming up in single-user mode, too - with 173030 in
the switch register (I have the programmer's panel on my 11/34a). FYI. --
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Birch [mailto:robin@ruffnready.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:17 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: 'Ken Wellsch'; Roger Ivie; PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
Robin
In message <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9 at red-msg-06.redmond.
corp.microsoft.com>, Ian King <iking at microsoft.com> writes
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls
'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in
C,
>but for C of this era I'm not sure. That call seems to succeed; it's a few
>statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.
>
>But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
>execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
>able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.
>
>I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next.... -- Ian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>
>Roger Ivie wrote:
>>
>> Ian King said:
>> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how
=
>> > swap space is assigned or designated. Does anyone have any hints? =
>> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>>
>> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
>> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>>
>> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
>> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
>> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
>> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
>> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
>
>I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
>is built with a wired in swap. In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
>looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
>the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
>
>Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
>a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>-- Ken
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin at ruffnready.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD Old computers and radios always welcome
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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen@microwalt.nl>
To: "'Robin Birch'" <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>, Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
Cc: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>, Roger Ivie <IVIE at cc.usu.edu>,
PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:01:36 +0100
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> In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
> device. Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
> isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
That is often the case.. dunno about V6 though.. is a long time ago :)
--f
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Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
To: sms at moe.2bsd.com
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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On 26 Feb, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> 2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
>> sms1 at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
> That looks good - and familiar ;)
;-)
> The next thing that should have come out is the '# ' single user
> prompt.
... like setup.ps says.
>> else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is off. I tried with an
>
> That sounds like the system 'halt'ed for some (unknown) reason.
> Sigh - that kernel should work fine, especially with a RQDX3/RD54.
Yes. All the devices where used in a MVII bevore and are knowen to
work. Thats a bit confusing.
>> System configuration:
>> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
>> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
>
> There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> 'halt' instruction.
BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
switches?
OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))
Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt
be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
hint. ;-) ) So I use a minicom script to load the bootstrap via ODT.
But the current bootstrap script is for TMSCP. So I have to load the
bootblocks from tape...
--
tsch��,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102262144.IAA24139 at psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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The root device, swap device, swap size and offset are hard coded into the
kernel configuration file c.c. This is build by 'myconf', although a lot
of people would directly edit l.s and c.c (in /usr/sys/conf). There are no
magic /dev/swap entries. Edition 7 does the same thing.
For a RK05 disk, the filesystem would typically occupy 4000 blocks, with the
last 872 being allocated for swap. If you built a new root disk, you had to
be careful that the disk size you gave to 'mkfs', didn't overlap the
hard configured swap disk. No disk partitions.
You can find out the current values by using one of the debuggers (db or cdb)
to find the values of swap (_swapdev), swap size (_nswap), swap offset (_swplo)
and root device (_rootdev). You can also use 'nm' to get the symbol table,
and 'od' the kernel file /unix. The RK05 was usually the first entry in
the device switch tables, so the major/minor numbers are usually 0.
The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a matching
device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot open
a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user process).
It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel, say
rkunix.
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
In-Reply-To: <200102261747.SAA16216 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de"
at "Feb 26, 2001 06:47:11 pm"
To: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:32:38 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de:
> On 26 Feb, Warren Toomey wrote:
>
> > Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
> > username and password to browse.
> Hmm. Can you set up Apache to provide SSL / HTTPS? I don't like to send
> passwords unencrypted around the world.
> tsch__,
> Jochen
They are not real passwords, in a sense. There is only a userpool of
1,000 usernames/passwords.
When you register for access into the Unix Archive, you get one out of
the pool. The only purpose here is to prove to SCO that you indeed
agreed to their on-line license before you were given access to the
archive.
I'd be quite happy to completely dispense with the passwords altogether
and run an anonymous service. If/when Caldera work out what they are doing
with this stuff, I'll push them to allow for anonymous access.
Cheers,
Warren
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:26:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102262226.f1QMQOv11403 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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Hi -
> From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Feb 26 13:16:40 2001
> > There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> > 'halt' instruction.
> BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
> double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
> disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
Years ago I was completely suprised that 'halt' in kernel mode did
not work and the system simply continued executing the next instruction.
> jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> switches?
I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
long as there are some interrupts happening.
I vaguely remember that some systems (11/23?) had an externally
enabled clock and if that switch was not set correctly the OS could
be installed but the system would "hang" later on due to no context
switch scheduling.
> OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))
Fantastic!
> Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt
> be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
I think it will work. 2.11 is expecting the registers to contain
the following:
R0 = unit number
R1 = CSR of booting controller
as long as those are set it should not matter what bootcode is used.
Steven Schultz
sms at moe.2bsd.com
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:39:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org>
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To: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>
cc: Roger Ivie <IVIE at cc.usu.edu>, <PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
device.
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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To: PDP Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Roger Ivie wrote:
> It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
> essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
> delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.
Yes, that's how it was done, leading to the dreaded "panic: swap". I
think the swapped image became the parent, and the in-core one the child,
hence the child was pretty well guaranteed to run before the parent (it
typically did an exec() afterwards).
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:51:11 -0500
From: Ken Wellsch <kwellsch@tampabay.rr.com>
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To: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>
CC: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
>
> > Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> > still gripes about "no swap device."
>
> As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
> device.
After some wise person earlier explained the whole process in detail,
once I'd seen the final step ,I realized my error - I was booting rkunix
and as it turned out, had not matched /unix with that kernel... I just
tried it now and 'ps' is a happy camper. B^)
-- Ken
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Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
device.
--
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU dave at geac.com.au Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:12:07 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: [pups] Forks under V6
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> It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
> essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
> delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.
No. Fork calls the internal version 'newproc'. It tries to allocate memory from
the core map for the new process, and only when it fails that it creates the new
process as a swap image. Effectively, it copies out the parent as a swap
image, but attaches it to the child process (the parent isn't really swapped).
In 'miniunix', the V6 strip down for pdp-11's without memory management
(pdp11/20, 05, 10 and 40's without the proper options), only a single process
would fit in core, so every context switch or fork required swapping.
I cannot speak for pre V6
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:46:45 +0100 (CET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@update.uu.se>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
In-Reply-To: <200102262226.f1QMQOv11403 at moe.2bsd.com>
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> > panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> > of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> > installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> > immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> > switches?
>
> I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
> With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
> long as there are some interrupts happening.
Could be. I also remember seeing somewhere that the two dip switches on
the front panel of BA23 boxes should be set differently for PDP-11s and
VAXen. Appearantly they expect the boot button to behave in different ways
on the bus as well... (and HALT I think)
Don't have that docuemnt anywhere close though...
> I vaguely remember that some systems (11/23?) had an externally
> enabled clock and if that switch was not set correctly the OS could
> be installed but the system would "hang" later on due to no context
> switch scheduling.
That definitely happens for RSX atleast. You *must* have a clock interrupt
running, or you are cooked.
> > Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt
> > be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
>
> I think it will work. 2.11 is expecting the registers to contain
> the following:
>
> R0 = unit number
> R1 = CSR of booting controller
>
> as long as those are set it should not matter what bootcode is used.
Then it's more forgiving than the RSX boot code. I have tried that
bootstrap and it won't boot RSX atleast, that much I know...
Speaking of which; does anyone have boot roms for TMSCP for the M9312?
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Subject: [pups] Forks under V6
From: norman@nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:49:13 -0500
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I believe the practice John Holden describes from Mini-UNIX (only one
process in memory at a time, hence a context switch is the same as a
swap) was also part of the very earliest UNIXes, on the PDP-7 and the
11/20, neither of which had hardware memory management. Dennis Ritchie's
`Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System' paper (in the October 1984
Bell Labs Technical Journal, the second issue to be devoted entirely to
UNIX), tells how it worked in some detail. It wouldn't surprise me if
the swap-to-fork mechanism lived on for a while even after the system
learned about memory management, but I don't actually know that. (Warren:
wbat does the old system you have do?)
Anyone who wants to verify what John describes for V6 can look in (among
other places) the Lions book; newproc is at line 1826, at the beginning
of slp.c.
Norman Wilson
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Subject: Re: [pups] Forks under V6
In-Reply-To: <200102262353.KAA55588 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Norman Wilson
at "Feb 26, 2001 06:49:13 pm"
To: Norman Wilson <norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:15:44 +1100 (EST)
CC: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In article by Norman Wilson:
> I believe the practice John Holden describes from Mini-UNIX (only one
> process in memory at a time, hence a context switch is the same as a
> swap) was also part of the very earliest UNIXes, on the PDP-7 and the
> 11/20, neither of which had hardware memory management. Dennis Ritchie's
> `Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System' paper (in the October 1984
> Bell Labs Technical Journal, the second issue to be devoted entirely to
> UNIX), tells how it worked in some detail. It wouldn't surprise me if
> the swap-to-fork mechanism lived on for a while even after the system
> learned about memory management, but I don't actually know that. (Warren:
> wbat does the old system you have do?)
> Norman Wilson
For the versions on the 11/20 [that's V1, V2 and V3], as there was no
memory protection, there was only 1 process in core at any time. Thus,
the parent was definitely swapped out.
The Nsys kernel (just before V4) also swaps the parent out:
newproc()
{
/*
* make proc entry for new proc
*/
/*
* swap out old process
* to make image of new proc
*/
}
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/ken/slp.c.html)
We don't have kernel source for V4 :-(. It looks like V5 also swaps
the parent out:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/V5/usr/sys/ken/slp.c.html
By V6, the parent could stay in core if there was enough room:
newproc()
{
/*
* If there is not enough core for the
* new process, swap out the current process to generate the
* copy.
*/
if(a2 == NULL) {
savu(u.u_ssav);
xswap(rpp, 0, 0);
} else {
/*
* There is core, so just copy.
*/
rpp->p_addr = a2;
while(n--) copyseg(a1++, a2++);
}
u.u_procp = rip;
return(0);
}
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/V6/usr/sys/ken/slp.c.html)
I've omitted some lines of code here and there.
Warren
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:02:55 +1100 (EST)
From: John Holden <johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-Id: <200102270302.OAA31721 at psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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On BA-23 boxes, there is a small, two lever DIP switch. Switch 1 in the
ON position (down) enables BEVENT on the Qbus. Without it enabled, there
will no line time clock interrupts generated, even if the LTC register at
777546 in enabled.
The second switch enables the 'restart' button when ON. Pressing 'restart'
starts a powerup sequence, running diagnostics and starting ODT or the
bootstrap (equivalent to cycling the power).
On the earlier BA-11 series boxes for the LSI-11 (and /23), there was an
equivalent switch on the front panel labeled "Aux". It could be used either to
enable the BEVENT or the remote switch for the cabinet power controller. The
11/23plus, 11/53/73 have programable LTC registers, so the switch is normally
left on. On the LSI-11,/2 and early 11/23, you would initially boot the machine
with it off, then enable it.
As for machines hanging without the LTC running, the problem is that the
scheduler (sched) never gets to run, since it sleeps waiting for the 'lbolt'
flag that is only ever set in the clock interrupt service routine. The timeout
queue also doesn't run, so only the internal 'init' process will ever get to run
PS
You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
serial break as the power goes down.
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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:50:59 -0600
To: pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Jay Jaeger <cube1@home.com>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Cc: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com, johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au
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In case someone didn't put 2+2 together... The V6 distribution has various
unix kernels. I don't recall for sure which kernel is linked to /unix, but
for sure it is only one of them.
So, if /rpunix is linked to /unix, and you boot rkunix, and then do a ps,
it will search /unix for the symbol for swapdev, look for the RP device in
/dev, and not find one. no swap dev.
The cure is, of course, quite simple:
# chdir /
# ln rkunix unix
And ps will now work fine.
[ Ian might have gotten this directly had he not hidden his real e-mail
address... ;-) ]
Jay Jaeger
At 09:32 AM 2/27/01 +1100, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
>From: "Ian King" <iking at killthewabbit.org>
>Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09F85.94050E80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
>execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device". I'm =
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
>From: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
>From: John Holden <johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
<< snip >>
>The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
>the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
>It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a matching
>device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot open
>a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user
>process).
>It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
>
>For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel, say
>rkunix.
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection
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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:03:54 +0100
From: Martijn van Buul <pino@dohd.org>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <20010227120354.A9872 at mud.stack.nl>
Reply-To: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
References: <200102270302.OAA31721 at psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
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John Holden wrote:
> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
> break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
> Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
> serial break as the power goes down.
On my /53+ running 2.11, it's enough to kick in ODT.. Very anoying, really.
Is there any way to disable this functionality, save rewiring the backplane?
--
Martijn van Buul - Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.
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Thread-Topic: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Thread-Index: AcCgdE7qokpl8pfARPebGWEtnq6FUgAaQ5uQ
From: "Ian King" <iking@microsoft.com>
To: "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at home.com>, <pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Cc: <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>, <johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au>
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The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works. The bad news
is that cc still fails with the following error:
fFatal error in /lib/c0
The lowercase f appears, followed shortly by the rest of the line. I've
tried the -c option to suppress linking, and still get this error. I
don't get this error on the Supnik emulator.
Obviously, one way to do things would be to rebuild the kernel on the
emulator, and transfer it to the PDP-11. But that seems like cheating.
:-) Besides, the Supnik emulator is just too freeform; my 11/34a
doesn't have a half-dozen instructions the emulator implements. I've
tried the DBit E11 emulator (since it gives more control over processor
features), but I can't get it to boot these images. -- Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Jaeger [mailto:cube1@home.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:51 PM
To: pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Cc: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com; johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In case someone didn't put 2+2 together... The V6 distribution has
various
unix kernels. I don't recall for sure which kernel is linked to /unix,
but
for sure it is only one of them.
So, if /rpunix is linked to /unix, and you boot rkunix, and then do a
ps,
it will search /unix for the symbol for swapdev, look for the RP device
in
/dev, and not find one. no swap dev.
The cure is, of course, quite simple:
# chdir /
# ln rkunix unix
And ps will now work fine.
[ Ian might have gotten this directly had he not hidden his real e-mail
address... ;-) ]
Jay Jaeger
At 09:32 AM 2/27/01 +1100, you wrote:
>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
>From: "Ian King" <iking at killthewabbit.org>
>Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09F85.94050E80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I
=
>execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".
I'm =
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
>From: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0. Relaetd to this, ps does
something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls
'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no
in C,
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something
like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but
"ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
>From: John Holden <johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
<< snip >>
>The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
>the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
>It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a
matching
>device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot
open
>a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user
>process).
>It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
>
>For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel,
say
>rkunix.
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com visit
http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection
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From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl@mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-Id: <200102271827.KAA16090 at chiton.ucsd.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Precedence: bulk
> From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Feb 26 13:32 PST 2001
> From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:15:52 +0100 (CET)
> Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
> To: sms at moe.2bsd.com
> cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>
> >> System configuration:
> >> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
> >> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
> >
> > There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> > 'halt' instruction.
> BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
> double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
> disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
> jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> switches?
Quote from _Microcomputer Products Handbook_ EB26078 41/85 (DEC)
"Control Panel
. . .
The 2-position linetime clock (LTC) switch (switch 1) is used to enable
or disable the LTC function. Setting switch 1 ON enables the LTC to
function under software control. Setting switch 1 to the OFF position
disables the LTC function. The other 2-position switch (switch 2) is
not used."
Note (by me) this refers to microPDP usage of the BA23. The LTC is not
used by the microVAX which could occupy the same box.
carl
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2001-02-26 18:47 ` [pups] Swap device in V6? Bill Gunshannon
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