From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
From: bqt@update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:34:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <Uz90cvA$kUm6EwgT@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102251934050.17586-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:

> Dear All,
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?

Nope. The TOY clock don't generate interrupts.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:48:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642 at moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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> From: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
>
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
> 
	As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts.  The
	line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.

	Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
	relevant in sys/errlog.c:

/*
 * Log a stray device interrupt.
 *
 * A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
 * a configured device through a valid vector address,
 * but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
 * interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
 * is entered and the device is not active and no attention
 * summary bits are set.
 */

	One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
	'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
	comment.

	Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
	are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
	information.

	Cheers.

	Steven  Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:52 +0000
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
From: Robin Birch <robin@ruffnready.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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Rats,
This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!

It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
work on the emulators themselves.  When the SI message is generated it
comes out with a number that looks like an address.  Would this point to
the source of the interrupt?  On p11 it is a constant address, I just
can't remember what it is for the moment.

Cheers

Robin
In message <200102251848.f1PImpn25642 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
>> From: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
>>
>> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
>> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
>> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
>> out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
>> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
>> 
>       As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts.  The
>       line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
>
>       Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
>       relevant in sys/errlog.c:
>
>/*
> * Log a stray device interrupt.
> *
> * A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
> * a configured device through a valid vector address,
> * but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
> * interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
> * is entered and the device is not active and no attention
> * summary bits are set.
> */
>
>       One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
>       'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
>       comment.
>
>       Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
>       are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
>       information.
>
>       Cheers.
>
>       Steven  Schultz
>       sms at moe.2bsd.com

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:37:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu>
To: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:

> Rats,
> This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
> 
> It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
> work on the emulators themselves. 

Well, that's my estimation.  I thought at first it was harmless, but
work I have attempted over this weekend using the Supnik emulator has
changed my mind.

>                                    When the SI message is generated it
> comes out with a number that looks like an address.  Would this point to
> the source of the interrupt?  On p11 it is a constant address, I just
> can't remember what it is for the moment.

Let me guess: 176700.  :-)

It's the csr of the device that issued the stray interrupt.  My guess is
your having the same trouble with p11 that I am having with Bob's.  It's
the hp device and every RP disk access causes stray interrupts.
 
bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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Subject: [pups] Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
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On Friday, 23 February 2001 at  8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> 	so the machine can be placed on a network.  P11's also quite a bit
>> 	more efficient/fast.   Configuration can be puzzling but sample
>> 	config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
>
> I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??

*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little.  I can no longer
get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it.  I'm
copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
that we'll get it up again soon.  J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
ftp files.  You should find them somewhere on the file systems
/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
spinning.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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To: "'Bill Gunshannon'" <bill at cs.scranton.edu>,
        Robin Birch
	 <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
Cc: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:39:25 +0100
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All,

Robin Birch wrote:

> > This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
Sure, fix the source :)

> > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on 
> without some work on the emulators themselves. 
I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
_could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector).  Controller does
as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
the expected timeframe (can happen).

Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see.  So, even though we didnt
get int2, we were fine.

Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
int now" and sends the int.  The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
(because
we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
"stray int" message.

If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
heavily, so latency will occur more often.  On a very fast box (like my quad
CPU
P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.

Anyone?

Fred (hacking on the V3.1 source to not fuck up TCP/IP on the 11/23 ..)


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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:04 +1100 (EST)
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Hi all,
	
	A while ago I floated the idea of a web-browsable set of old Unix
distributions, along with a way of finding out how each file evolved. Well,
after a bit of coding on the weekend, I now have this available. It's
called the Unix Tree, and the URL is http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/

Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
username and password to browse.

I've only inserted research editions up to 7th Edition for now, in case
I have to make major changes. However, tell me what you think.

Cheers, and off to have some lunch.

	Warren

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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:45:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu>
To: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl>
cc: PUPS Mailing List <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [pups] Stray Interupts
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On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:

> > > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on 
> > without some work on the emulators themselves. 
> I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It

Which I think says a lot about the quality of Ersatz-11.

> _could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
> to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector).  Controller does
> as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
> However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
> the expected timeframe (can happen).
> 
> Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
> a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
> when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see.  So, even though we didnt
> get int2, we were fine.
> 
> Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
> int now" and sends the int.  The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
> (because
> we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
> "stray int" message.

Based on my experience over this weekend, I can definitely agree with
all of the above.  It makes perfect sense and goes a long way toward
explaining my problems.

> 
> If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
> heavily, so latency will occur more often. 

I can also vouch for this.  I finally gave up on trying to do anything 
I/O intensive on the emulated RP disk.  Emulator was continuously
crashing.

>                                      On a very fast box (like my quad CPU
> P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.

While this is not a solution most people here are likely to be able to
apply :-)  I also have doubts that it will solve the problem.  I also
doubt that the problem is as easy as just throwing away the stray interrupt.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".  I'm =
not particularly concerned about ps itself, but another symptom of =
problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an error out of cc =
that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0".  Given where that error comes from =
in cc, it appears related. =20

I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
Thanks -- Ian=20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm working with the install image =
provided by Ken=20
Wellsch, and when I execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says =
"no swap=20
device".&nbsp; I'm not particularly concerned about ps itself, but =
another=20
symptom of problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an =
error out of=20
cc that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0".&nbsp; Given where that error =
comes from=20
in cc, it appears related.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've combed the docs and the code, and =
I can't find=20
ANYthing about how swap space is assigned or designated.&nbsp; Does =
anyone have=20
any hints?&nbsp; Thanks -- Ian </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +0100 (CET)
From: Harti Brandt <brandt@fokus.gmd.de>
To: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
cc: Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu>,
        "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>, <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>,
        Hartmut Brandt <brandt at fokus.gmd.de>,
        Joerg Micheel <joerg at begemot.org>
Subject: [pups] Re: Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
In-Reply-To: <20010225135710.B11541 at sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Greg Lehey wrote:

GL>On Friday, 23 February 2001 at  8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
GL>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
GL>>> 	so the machine can be placed on a network.  P11's also quite a bit
GL>>> 	more efficient/fast.   Configuration can be puzzling but sample
GL>>> 	config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
GL>>
GL>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
GL>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
GL>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
GL>> so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
GL>
GL>*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little.  I can no longer
GL>get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
GL>time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
GL>But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
GL>accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it.  I'm
GL>copying J�rg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
GL>that we'll get it up again soon.  J�rg, Harti, the problem is that I
GL>migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
GL>ftp files.  You should find them somewhere on the file systems
GL>/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
GL>spinning.

I have done some work on the emulator last autumn and plan to release
a new version Real-Soon-Now(tm). Well, I think I will to a

kill -STOP `cat /var/run/currentwork`

and try to do it in the next couple of days.

Please watch the alt.sys.pdp11 for an anouncement.

Disc images work directly (at least the images from Bob Supnik do).

harti
-- 
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
              brandt at fokus.gmd.de, harti at begemot.org


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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:32:54 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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Hi.

Yesterday I installed 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73. Everything went fine up
to the first time when UNIX was booted. The kernel came up, init was
started, autoconfig run and printed out the devices it had (not) found.
My disk and tape were found but then, after printing:
-----
73Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500
: ra(0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150

2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
    sms1 at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC

ra0: Ver 3 mod 3
ra0: RD54  size=311200

phys mem  = 4186112
avail mem = 3962176
user mem  = 307200

June  8 21:21:24 init: configure system

hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No CSR.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No CSR.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped:  No CSR.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No CSR.
tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached
ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No CSR.
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No CSR.
-----
it hangs. Characters I type into the terminal are echod, but nothing
else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is of. I tried with an
other CPU und memory card, but the same happend.

System configuration:
11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
4MB or 1MB memory card (non DEC)
Sigma DLV11-J clone for console (CSR 1765{0,1,2}0 and 177560)
TK50 with TQK50 (CSR 174500)
RA54, last week reformated on a MV2000 with RQDX3 (CSR 172150)
BA23 from a MVII.

BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
UNIX I got garbage after "user mem  = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
and this worked, but is it correct?
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz


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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Roger Ivie <IVIE@cc.usu.edu>
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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Ian King said:
> I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
> Thanks -- Ian=20

Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.

Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.

Roger Ivie
ivie at cc.usu.edu

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Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
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Roger Ivie wrote:
> 
> Ian King said:
> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> > swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
> > Thanks -- Ian=20
> 
> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
> 
> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.

I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
is built with a wired in swap.  In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.

Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.

The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
that) and confirming it is a block device.

Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
still gripes about "no swap device."

So I'm missing something I guess.

-- Ken

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Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:22:23 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
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Hi -

> From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
> 
> Yesterday I installed 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73. Everything went fine up
> to the first time when UNIX was booted. The kernel came up, init was
> started, autoconfig run and printed out the devices it had (not) found.

> 2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
>     sms1 at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC

	That looks good - and familiar ;)

> xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No CSR.
> -----
> it hangs. Characters I type into the terminal are echod, but nothing

	The next thing that should have come out is the '# ' single user
	prompt.

> else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is off. I tried with an

	That sounds like the system 'halt'ed for some (unknown) reason.

	Sigh - that kernel should work fine, especially with a RQDX3/RD54.  I
	am at a loss to explain/diagnose the problem.

> System configuration:
> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)

	There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
	'halt' instruction.  If 'halt' is disabled then the 'halt' instruction
	is treated as a 'nop' even in kernel mode.  If 'halt' is enabled then
	the console ODT will be entered if the kernel executes a halt.

	Looks like we'll have to try and solve this the hard way ;(

	After the system hangs press the 'halt' button on the front of the
	machine and note the PC - hopefully that value will give a clue as
	to where the kernel is at the time (likely in a clock interrupt).

> BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> UNIX I got garbage after "user mem  = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> and this worked, but is it correct?

	Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com