[pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller

[pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller

[Gregory R. Travis]

Can someone enlighten me regarding DEC SDI cabling?  Here's
what I have:

RA81 disk drive with two big black cables coming out of it, one for
each port (A/B).  The cables terminate at the drive on one end and
at a small metal box on the other end.  The small metal box has
two sockets on it (denoted with "*" in the picture below):

                       Small metal box
                          /
+----------+  "A" cable  /
| RA81     |------------[]*
| Drive    |------------[]*
+----------+  "B" cable


UDA50 controller in 11/44 with four sets of orange cables coming out
of it and terminating in a four-port socket set (denoted "*" in picture
below) in a larger metal box at the back of the cabinet:

                        Larger metal box
                         /
                        /
                     *[]_________
                     *[]_________\
                     *[]_________\\  <- Four (4) Cable groups
                     *[]_________\\\
                                 \\\\
                             ----------
                             | UDA50  |
                             |        |
                             ----------

What I have tried:
	I unscrewed the black cables from the small metal box
	and plugged one of them directly into one of the ports on
	the larger metal box:


+----------+  "A" cable  
| RA81     |----------------|
| Drive    |----------[]*   |
+----------+  "B" cable     |
                           /   Larger metal box
                          /      /
                          |     /
                          |-*[]_________
                            *[]_________\
                            *[]_________\\  <- Four (4) Cable groups
                            *[]_________\\\
                                        \\\\
                                     ----------
                                     | UDA50  |
                                     |        |
                                     ----------


That didn't work (I tried it with two different drives and cable sets).
The operating system (2.11BSD) sees the UDA50 but does not see the drive
(which is spun up and "ready").

I did a little searching on the internet and found a couple of
cryptic discussions.  What I surmised from the discussions was that you
cannot directly connect the drive cable to the bulkhead box on the
computer cabinet.  It seems you need a third cable to act as an
intermediary as such:

                      Small metal box
                         /
+----------+  "A" cable / 
| RA81     |----------[]*---|  
| Drive    |----------[]*   | <--- New THIRD ("external?") cable
+----------+  "B" cable     |
                           /   Larger metal box
                          /      /
                          |     /
                          |-*[]_________
                            *[]_________\
                            *[]_________\\  <- Four (4) Cable groups
                            *[]_________\\\
                                        \\\\
                                     ----------
                                     | UDA50  |
                                     |        |
                                     ----------


Is that right?  If so, where can I find one of these external cables and/or
is it possible to manufacture one from a bit of ribbon cable an a
couple of commonly available plugs?  The sockets denoted by "*" appear to
be AMD bastardizations of common PC board plugs like the ones one would
find connecting a console port plug.

Thanks!

greg

Gregory Travis
Cornerstone Information Systems ATS
greg at ciswired.com
812 330 4361 ext. 18

[pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller

[Johnny Billquist]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Gregory R. Travis wrote:

> Can someone enlighten me regarding DEC SDI cabling?  Here's
> what I have:

You got it right by the end. You need a third external cable.
The SDI-cables are always crossed, which means you always need an odd
number of cables.

Where to get the cables? COMPAQ if you can pay for them. Other sites that
are throwing out their stuff if you definitely don't want to pay. Some
dealer in used equipment is a third alternative. Ask anywhere where you
might expect to find SDI disks.

I wouldn't try to build that cable...

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen@microwalt.nl>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: [pups] Update on Ultrix-11 V3.1 progress
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:48:57 +0100
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All,

This was a private message to Bill Gunshannon (my oh-so-evil partner in
Ultrix crime) but it occurred to me that it might actually be of interest
to some of you, so....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update.
I have done some work on the hardware here (mostly: getting the VS2000
back up, so I could re-format all RDxx drives I have here) and ended up
with getting some more workable disks.  The 11/83 now has an internal
RD54 (/user1: 145MB :) and external TL50 plus external RD53.

I did a full tape load on it, and now have a new "original" Ultrix-11
system.  I already have about 5 RX50 diskettes full of stuff I added
to the system- will all be in the V3.1(2) release.

More important, I have started work on the Ultrix-11 source tree. I want
to be able to re-generate the _entire_ system from scratch (sources), so
I can optionally do it on a VAX or Alpha with GCC-plus-PDP11 backend.

This is taking some time... the whole system _assumes_ many things about
the fact that it is probably Ultrix-11 itself.  I now run with a /usr that
is fully RO (mounted RO), and it is amazing to see how often I get warnings
and erros on that fact while compiling the sources :)

So, basically, I am relativizing the source tree so that it is
self-containing,
can live anywhere in the file tree (/user1/srckit in my case) and that it
moves
stuff to a BINKIT (/user1/binkit in my case) tree when it is done, rather
than
overwriting system files.

To be continued...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And an update to that: seems to work now... system is recompiling itself as
we
speak/type.  Once that works, this get very easy for me :)

I'll post some of the README files I keep updated in the next message
here...

Cheers,
	Fred


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On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 05:48:57PM +0100, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Update.
> I have done some work on the hardware here (mostly: getting the VS2000
> back up, so I could re-format all RDxx drives I have here) and ended up
> with getting some more workable disks.  The 11/83 now has an internal
> RD54 (/user1: 145MB :) and external TL50 plus external RD53.

Good, I guess the drive worked then?

Wilko
-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands    	email: wilko at freebsd.org
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte	 http://www.freebsd.org 	http://www.nlfug.nl

[pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller

[Gregory R. Travis]

I've got an AVIV TFC-825 UNIBUS controller on my 11/44.  I'm virtually certain
it emulates a TS11.

It appears to support Pertec formatted tape drives.  It has two
cable interfaces, labeled Pertec P1 and Pertec P2.

I currently have a DigiData Pertec formatted 9-track drive plugged into a
DigiData controller on my QBUS 11/83.  Works fine.   Now I'd like to use
the drive to bootstrap the 11/44.

The DigiData drive's cables are both 49-pin ribbons.  Sure enough,
the DigiData controller's cable headers are also 49-pin (what a wonderful
world, eh?)

However, the AVIV controller's cable headers are 59-pin!

Anyone have any insight into what's going on here?  Isn't a Pertec
interface a Pertec interface?  Or is the DigiData using some kind of
proprietary (to DigiData) interface?

thanks,

greg

Gregory Travis
Cornerstone Information Systems ATS
greg at ciswired.com
812 330 4361 ext. 18



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From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl@mpl.ucsd.edu>
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To: ciswired.com at mpl.ucsd.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller
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> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:28:41 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg at ciswired.com>
> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: [pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller
> 
> It appears to support Pertec formatted tape drives.  It has two
> cable interfaces, labeled Pertec P1 and Pertec P2.
> 
> I currently have a DigiData Pertec formatted 9-track drive plugged into a
> DigiData controller on my QBUS 11/83.  Works fine.   Now I'd like to use
> the drive to bootstrap the 11/44.
> 
> The DigiData drive's cables are both 49-pin ribbons.  Sure enough,
> the DigiData controller's cable headers are also 49-pin (what a wonderful
> world, eh?)
> However, the AVIV controller's cable headers are 59-pin!

Are you sure those numbers aren't 50 and 60, respectively?

> Anyone have any insight into what's going on here?  Isn't a Pertec
> interface a Pertec interface?  Or is the DigiData using some kind of
> proprietary (to DigiData) interface?

For what it's worth, there were two distinctly different "Pertec"
interfaces.  They might be called Early Pertec and Late Pertec.
For Early Pertec, the eventual cable breakout to the drives went
to three connectors, Read data, Write data, and Control.  Possibly
the AVIV controller was meant to be used with a custom cable set
to match a "three-connector" drive.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:58:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Carl Lowenstein <cdl@mpl.ucsd.edu>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller 
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> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:28:41 -0500 (EST)
> From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg at ciswired.com>
> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: [pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller
> 
> I've got an AVIV TFC-825 UNIBUS controller on my 11/44.  I'm virtually certain
> it emulates a TS11.
> 
> It appears to support Pertec formatted tape drives.  It has two
> cable interfaces, labeled Pertec P1 and Pertec P2.
> 
> I currently have a DigiData Pertec formatted 9-track drive plugged into a
> DigiData controller on my QBUS 11/83.  Works fine.   Now I'd like to use
> the drive to bootstrap the 11/44.
> 
> The DigiData drive's cables are both 49-pin ribbons.  Sure enough,
> the DigiData controller's cable headers are also 49-pin (what a wonderful
> world, eh?)
> 
> However, the AVIV controller's cable headers are 59-pin!

Are you sure those numbers aren't 50 and 60, respectively?  Most
of the connecting cables for tape drives used twisted-pair ribbon
cable.

> Anyone have any insight into what's going on here?  Isn't a Pertec
> interface a Pertec interface?  Or is the DigiData using some kind of
> proprietary (to DigiData) interface?

For what it's worth, there were two "standard" Pertec interfaces.
I think of them as Early Pertec and Late Pertec.  Late Pertec is
the two 50-pin cables.

Early Pertec connected to the drive with three cables, Read data,
Write data, and Control.  Usually there was a custom cable set
that broke out to three cables from the connectors on the controller.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:14:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg@ciswired.com>
To: Carl Lowenstein <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller
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On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Carl Lowenstein wrote:

> > Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:28:41 -0500 (EST)
> > From: "Gregory R. Travis" <greg at ciswired.com>
> > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> > Subject: [pups] AVIV vs. DigiData tape controller
> > 
> > It appears to support Pertec formatted tape drives.  It has two
> > cable interfaces, labeled Pertec P1 and Pertec P2.
> > 
> > I currently have a DigiData Pertec formatted 9-track drive plugged into a
> > DigiData controller on my QBUS 11/83.  Works fine.   Now I'd like to use
> > the drive to bootstrap the 11/44.
> > 
> > The DigiData drive's cables are both 49-pin ribbons.  Sure enough,
> > the DigiData controller's cable headers are also 49-pin (what a wonderful
> > world, eh?)
> > However, the AVIV controller's cable headers are 59-pin!
> 
> Are you sure those numbers aren't 50 and 60, respectively?

You're absolutely right.  I just read the pin #s off the boards
next to the connector.  They printed 49 and 59 but, of course, there's
the other row of pins.

> For what it's worth, there were two distinctly different "Pertec"
> interfaces.  They might be called Early Pertec and Late Pertec.
> For Early Pertec, the eventual cable breakout to the drives went
> to three connectors, Read data, Write data, and Control.  Possibly
> the AVIV controller was meant to be used with a custom cable set
> to match a "three-connector" drive.

I >THINK< I've got that covered.  The "early pertec", as I recall, are
also referred to as unformatted and consist, as you say, of three cables.
I've got a Western Digital UNIBUS TM11 controller that uses three
cables.

The later pertec are referred to as formatted and consist of just two cables.
My DigiData controllers use just two cables to my DigiData drive.

Now this AVIV controller has TWO connectors along its top.  That's for
sure.  But the connectors have each got more pins than the DigiData
controllers do.  As you say, I guess it's possible that the AVIV is
actually an unformatted controller that takes two "large" cables/connectors
and breaks them out later into three smaller cables/connectors.

But that would truly suck.

greg

Gregory Travis
Cornerstone Information Systems ATS
greg at ciswired.com
812 330 4361 ext. 18