* [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
@ 2000-10-03 20:02 Frank Wortner
0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Frank Wortner @ 2000-10-03 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for
the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's
not working.
My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel,
installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in
/etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and
/etc/hosts.pag and rebooted.
On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros --
just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver
configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11. Then I did an
ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
Running ifconfig on the host confirmed that things *seemed* to be OK:
# ifconfig tun0
tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
Opened by PID 32199
The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only
in the last octet.
Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside
world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the
outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang.
Everything looks OK from inside:
# ifconfig qe0
qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING>
inet emulator-IP-address netmask ffff0000 broadcast Bcast-IP
What am I missing?
Thanks in advance,
Frank
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>,
Hartmut Brandt <brandt at fokus.gmd.de>,
Joerg Micheel <joerg at begemot.org>
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
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On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 16:02:17 -0400, Frank Wortner wrote:
> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for
> the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's
> not working.
There's a bug. It used to work, and *something* changed. I've been
meaning to look at it, but it's currently waiting on the tuit queue.
> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
> FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel,
> installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in
> /etc/hosts to match my LAN, run mkhosts to rebuild /etc/hosts.dir and
> /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted.
>
> On the P11 front, I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros --
> just like the P11 README file said, made sure that I had a tun driver
> configured in my FreeBSD system, and started P11.
I know the README says this will work, but I haven't been able to get
it to work that way. Somewhere I have a real image; I'll see if I can
find it.
Greg
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200010040011.RAA09035 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: frank at wortner.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
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Hi --
> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
>
> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for
> the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's...
>
> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
> FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel,
> installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in...
>
> ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
>
> # ifconfig tun0
> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
> inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
> inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
> Opened by PID 32199
>
> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only
> in the last octet.
>
> Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside
> world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the
> outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang.
> What am I missing?
You're missing ARP.
'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass
thru the 'if_tun' driver.
I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as
FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely.
What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with
the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will
want to talk to
In /etc/netstart on the 11 side just after the 'ifconfig' lines:
ifconfig qe0 inet netmask $netmask $hostname broadcast $broadcast up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
# ifconfig sl0 inet 192.254.254.2 192.254.254.1 -arp -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
# slattach /dev/ttyS6 9600
# Next line needed when running under the Begemot emulator
arp -s 206.139.202.1 "0:0:c:3d:e9:f7" pub
arp -s 206.139.202.51 "0:a0:24:78:9c:21" pub
arp -s 206.139.202.200 "0:90:27:88:64:74" pub
arp -s 206.139.202.201 "08:0:2b:f:5b:a6" pub
arp -s 206.139.202.209 "0:40:5:a4:72:27" pub
ifconfig lo0 inet localhost up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
Typically you only need the ARP info for the hosting system and
the default gateway.
Oh, there's a bug in P11 that after 25 days of calendar up time the
clock on the 11 basically stops ticking. I've a fix I came up with
(and submitted to the author) but it'll be a couple weeks until I
know for sure if it's the right fix (32bit overflow in a calculation).
Steven Schultz
sms at to.gd-es.com
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: frank at wortner.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
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On Tuesday, 3 October 2000 at 17:11:10 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi --
>
>> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
>>
>> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD. Just for
>> the fun, I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN. Unfortunately, it's...
>>
>> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
>> FreeBSD 4.1.1. I've booted 2.11, configured a custom networking kernel,
>> installed the unix and netnix images, changed the IP addresses in...
>>
>> ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
>>
>> # ifconfig tun0
>> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
>> inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
>> inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
>> Opened by PID 32199
>>
>> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets, and differ only
>> in the last octet.
>>
>> Unfortunately, once I boot 2.11 BSD, I can't contact the "outside
>> world" from the emulator, nor contact the emulator from the
>> outside. No telnet, no ftp, pings just hang.
>> What am I missing?
>
> You're missing ARP.
>
> 'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass
> thru the 'if_tun' driver.
>
> I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as
> FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely.
>
> What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with
> the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will
> want to talk to
I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did
set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route
through that interface.
Greg
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Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200010040159.SAA09659 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog at lemis.com, sms at moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Cc: frank at wortner.com, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>
> I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running. I did
> set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route
> through that interface.
I thought you mentioned using the 'tap' driver rather than 'tun'
at one time. If my memory hasn't failed me that would explain
why it worked since 'tap' passes ARP traffic.
The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
Just after ifconfig'ing tun0 up use the hosting system's mac address:
ifconfig tun0 206.139.202.200 206.139.202.203 up
arp -s shemp 0:90:27:88:64:74 pub
I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
Without ARP on an ethernet I am not aware of any 'routing' that
can fill in the mac addresses in the ethernet packets.
Try pub'ing the arp entries and see if that works. Might try 'tap'
instead of 'tun' if you're looking for something else to try.
Steven Schultz
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread
* [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
@ 2000-10-05 16:42 Steven M. Schultz
0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Steven M. Schultz @ 2000-10-05 16:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
Hi -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> > revision 1.1
> > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp;
> > Add the tap driver.
>
> Ah well, I still haven't used it.
Neither have I ;) I thought (for 30 seconds or less) about
porting it to BSD/OS - it's not that big and didn't appear to be
overly tricky.
Only reason I knew about 'tap' was that P11 has support for it and
a pointer where to fetch 'tap' from.
> > The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is...
>
> I did that with a static route entry.
Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander
around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static
route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't
add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system
'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation.
> As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years.
Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more
detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I
can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet
if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping.
> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others
Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side?
Steven
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I had to replace the RS 423 drives on my PDP-11/24 and in the connected
VT-100 terminal after a problem on a PC clobbered the 11/24 console ports
which in turn clobbered the VT-100 some time ago.
---
Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
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On Thursday, 5 October 2000 at 9:42:05 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>>> The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is...
>> I did that with a static route entry.
>
> Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander
> around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static
> route. In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't
> add a static route if I wanted to. Having the host system
> 'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation.
>
>> As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years.
>
> Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more
> detail. Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I
> can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet
> if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping.
I don't know the details either, unfortunately. I really need to find
some time to get the thing running again.
>> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
>> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others
>
> Ouch! On the 11 side? Or on the hosting system's side?
On the 11 side. I'm not sure what happened, but it looks like it.
It's not a big deal, since I have backups somewhere.
Greg
--
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* [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
[not found] <200010041528.IAA19574@moe.2bsd.com>
@ 2000-10-04 15:57 ` Frank Wortner
0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Frank Wortner @ 2000-10-04 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
Just to let everyone know, Stephen Schultz was right: I needed arp table
entries as he described.`
Thanks to him and Greg Lehey for their useful replies.
Frank
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Wortner <frank@wortner.com>
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate
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This is just an FYI for anyone playing with the Begemot P11 emulator ...
The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line
frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the
U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the
U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock
also. When the software and "hardware" disagree on clock rates, problems
happen.
My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered
the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was
remarkably accurate!
If you want to change the default clock rate, you can do so in the source
(look for the symbol "clock_rate" in "main.c"), or you can just add
set clock_rate 60
into your p11conf file. This will override the default in the emulator
program.
Have fun -- I certainly am! :-)
Frank
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200010041524.IAA19559 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
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Hi -
> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean
> Frank?
Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;)
Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time)
as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site.
> > The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
> > side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
>
> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point
> interface.
The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is
so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated
11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't
publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets
to the machine running P11.
> > I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
>
> I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there.
I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first
discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated
11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a
response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be
possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that
and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY.
Steven
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Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <200010042227.PAA21951 at moe.2bsd.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate
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Hi -
> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
> The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz. While this corresponds to AC line
> frequency in many parts of the world, it is not correct for the
> U.S., where 60 Hz is the norm. Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the
> U.S., the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock
Yes, the bootable 2.11 distribution assumes a 60Hz clock. That is
easily changed though for folks that live in 50Hz areas. Edit the
kernel config file and change LINEHZ to 50. The rest of the system
has been changed to ask the kernel for the clockrate so there shouldn't
be any compiled in assumptions outside the kernel (if I overlooked
any let me know and I'll fix it).
> My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered
> the 50 Hz clock rate. After I changed it to 60, the emulator's time was
> remarkably accurate!
Indeed it is accurate. Earlier versions of P11 would lose time
very rapidly if the PDP-11 was "busy" - but the latest version of
P11 is fantastic at keeping time. If you run 'ntpd' on the 11 the
time stays even closer to "real".
Steven Schultz
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
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On Wednesday, 4 October 2000 at 8:24:07 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>> No, that wasn't me. FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver. Do you mean
>> Frank?
>
> Sure it does. The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so ;)
> Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time)
> as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site.
I stand corrected:
> revision 1.1
> date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10; author: nsayer; state: Exp;
> Add the tap driver.
>
> The tap driver is used to present a virtual Ethernet interface to the
> system. Packets presented by the network stack to the interface are
> made available to a character device in /dev. With tap and the bridge
> code, you can make remote bridge configurations where both sides of
> the bridge are separated by userland daemons.
>
> This driver also has a special naming hack to allow it to serve a similar
> purpose to the vmware port.
>
> Submitted by: myevmenkin at att.com, vsilyaev at mindspring.com
Ah well, I still haven't used it.
>>> The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
>>> side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all. tun is a point-to-point
>> interface.
>
> The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is
> so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated
> 11 via the P11 hosting system. If the hosting system doesn't
> publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets
> to the machine running P11.
I did that with a static route entry.
>>> I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
>>
>> I don't think it can. I think Harti used some magic there.
>
> I know it can't - I asked him about it :) That's when I first
> discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated
> 11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a
> response to its ARP request. On the hosting side it would be
> possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that
> and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY.
As I say, it's not that simple. I used it without trouble for years.
Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it. Since others
have the rest running, it's obviously nothing fundamental.
Greg
--
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-10-05 16:42 UTC | newest]
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2000-10-03 20:02 [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator Frank Wortner
[not found] <200010041528.IAA19574@moe.2bsd.com>
2000-10-04 15:57 ` Frank Wortner
2000-10-05 16:42 Steven M. Schultz
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