From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: beast@lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:55:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: That RL02 blues. Message-ID: Synopsis: I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware. However! There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here.... First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage machines. This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates). Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel: Loading (a) vmunix ... sizes: text = 719932 data = 116224 bss = 398512 starting at 0xc19 ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998 real mem = 7335936 avail mem = 4779008 using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory. MicroVAX-II with an fpu Q22 bus uda0 at uba0 uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17 vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt ^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ klesiu0 at uba0 uq6 at klesiu0 and so on. The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0. This is what I did so far: 1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus hl0 (that is the RL02 driver). Same effect as above. 2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure. Guess what... When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured. During all test: The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them. On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators. *despair* When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this: # newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02 newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or address newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the board. =/ Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for a good cause, okay? ) /Lars Persson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22081 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:08:57 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22075 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:08:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA01150; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA24580; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:08:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:08:24 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199802281508.AA24580 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: That RL02 blues. Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:19:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from jlothian at localhost) by holyrood.ed.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20434 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:18:57 GMT Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:18:57 GMT Message-Id: <199802281618.QAA20434 at holyrood.ed.ac.uk> From: J Lothian Subject: RL02 meets BSD To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last device on the bus. James Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA23015 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:19 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA23010 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:59:13 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA14586; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9802281758.AA14586 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD To: jlothian at holyrood.ed.AC.UK (J Lothian) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434 at holyrood.ed.ac.uk> from "J Lothian" at Feb 28, 98 04:18:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 set to? > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24673 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:46:02 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24668 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:45:56 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA18387; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:52 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9803010445.AA18387 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP > > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr. It all > > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and > > How "speedy" is a ZIP drive? In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary: Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an "internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73 (KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory. Caching on both controllers was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem. Times reported below are "wall times". All of this is done under the latest release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work being done on the system. 1. "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller. I think Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive itself makes this a minor concern. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25119 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:49 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25114 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:01:42 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08233; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:01:35 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20312; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:46 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:02:45 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf To: Allison J Parent cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: That RL02 blues In-Reply-To: <199802281508.AA24580 at world.std.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Grant chain was intact on both machines. On the second machine the MSCP device was placed below the RLV12 and the RA disk worked fine! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > > <^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^ > > > That suggests the interrupt grant chain was not intact. Look to see if > one of the slots needs a grant card. Watch out as a few cards DO NOT > pass grant! > > > I understand why you would use rl02 they are handy. I have no experience > with them in unix context only Qbus VAX (under VMS) and PDP-11s under > rt-11/rsts/rsx-11 so I can't comment on software setup. > > Allison > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25136 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:29 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25131 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:05:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08261; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:05:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20317; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:27 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:06:26 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf To: J Lothian cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <199802281618.QAA20434 at holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Both systems have "pirate" drive controllers and they have cards that do pass grant signals. If I do not remember wrongly, I think that only RQDX-1 had the "feature" of not passing the grant chain. But we placed all RQDX controller at the bottom anyhow even though they worked further up. THis is of academical interest only since I do not have holes in the grant chain and do not have an RQDX controllers AND I have devices below the drive controller in the first case that do work! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, J Lothian wrote: > I've had an RL02 working on an 11/750 running > BSD4.3. The RL11 controller only has 16 words of > buffer memory, so you've got to make sure that other > devices don't hog the bus too much. In particular, > UDAs should have their DMA burst set to something like 1. > Setting it much higher causes the RL11 to get data lates > as its silo overflows before it gets access to the bus > to do DMA. However, the RLV12 seems to have a much bigger > silo (256 bytes?), so this should't be a problem for it. > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > &c. If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > device on the bus. > > James > > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25220 for pups-liszt; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:37:03 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from tesla.df.lth.se (tesla.df.lth.se [194.47.252.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25215 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:36:57 +1100 (EST) Received: from lintilla2.df.lth.se (lintilla2.df.lth.se [194.47.252.38]) by tesla.df.lth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08432; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:36:49 +0100 (MET) Received: by lintilla2.df.lth.se (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20351; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:59 +0100 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 09:37:58 +0100 (MET) From: Beastly Wolf To: Tim Shoppa cc: J Lothian , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD In-Reply-To: <9802281758.AA14586 at alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk For various reasons I can not give you the hardware config of the first system (Okay okay! I DO not want to crawl back in behind it under all the cabling and short out the house again because I did something aggravating to the power outlet in the process the last time I was in there) but the only thing I did to that one was to add the RLV12 at the bottom. The system worked before with all devices and did so afterwards too except for the RLV-controller. The second system looks like this: A B C D 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA 5 SI------SI------SI------SI GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN (this used to be a VAX-station II. Remember them and cringe!) SI is a quad ESDI controller for one or two external drives from System Industries. On the other system I have a dual SI controller for RA81 clones (Eagle). There I DO have an RQDX-3 above the RLV12 but not so here. Grant chain on the uVAX bus looks like this: 1AB-2AB-3AB-4AB-4CD-5CD-5AB(and so on). The first three slots are "granted" only in the AB pair. The RLV12 does work with grants only on the AB pair however. It works fine in my three button 9 slot 22 bit backplane (classical PDP11 vintage rack mount cab) and there the grant chain goes ONLY on the AB side stright down (BA11-N and H9273). So, no, I do not think we have a grant problem. However, does the RLV12 handle drive interrupt like the RL11 does? It could be that ULTRIX only supports the UNIBUS controller and not the Qbus.. And if so, is there a fix for this out there? And if not, how do I get hold of enough NetBSD to get a uVAX up enough to have the config above, being able to network and being able to reach both the SI controller and the RLV12? Come to think of it, most of the no nonsense hard hat industry type PDP11's I've seen (and especially the OEM-ed ones) got some sort of winchester emulating one or several RL02s. Often combined with some sort of QIC-type tape recorder with secret density. To get ANYTHING on those rigs, I think you HAVE to do it the dd way after having moved the controller to a bigger system.... Amazing how things can turn... I used to spend a lot of time in trying to get away from the 16 bit operating systems into the wonderful world of 32 bit. Now I am struggling even harder to get back in there again. =) Fun is not always bigger, faster better! /Lars On Sat, 28 Feb 1998, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The only other things I can think of are bus grant problems > > &c. > > This certainly seems likely to me, too. What cards are in the > machine, and in which slots? What are the switches on the RLV12 > set to? > > > If you're using an RQDX3 in the same machine, bear in mind > > that it doesn't pass the grants, and so should be the last > > device on the bus. > > I think you're thinking of the RQDX1/2 here. > > Tim. > Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26727 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:58:11 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA26722 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:57:59 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA28081; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9803011857.AA28081 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: RL02 meets BSD To: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: jlothian at holyrood.ed.AC.UK, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: from "Beastly Wolf" at Mar 1, 98 09:37:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > The second system looks like this: > A B C D > 1 CPU-----CPU-----CPU-----CPU > 2 MEM-----MEM-----MEM-----MEM > 3 RLV12---RLV12---RLV12---RLV12 > 4 TKQ50---TKQ50 DQNA----DQNA > 5 SI------SI------SI------SI > GLUED BACKPLANE FROM HERE AND DOWN > (this used to be a VAX-station II. > Remember them and cringe!) Ah, the "RC" aka "restricted configuration" aka "resin-coated" backplane. The BA23 has a special CD-bus in the first three slots. Usually it's not a problem to put a full-height card in the third slot, below the CPU and memory, but occasionally there are quad-height cards which actually pay some attention to stuff going on the CD side of the bus. Can you try rearranging your cards so that you have a dual-height card (i.e. the TKQ50 or DEQNA) in slot 3 AB, you have the 3 CD empty, and the RLV12 in slot 4? This involves you giving up either your TKQ50 or DEQNA, but I'm hoping that you can live without one or the other for a little while. Also, how are the jumpers/DIPswitches set on the RLV12? It's possible to do some weird things by sticking the RLV12 into 16-bit or 18-bit mode or by having the VEC set to something used by one of your other cards. If either of these is the case, regard the fact that the controller isn't usable as a Good Thing; having a RLV12 in 18-bit mode splatter data all around low memory isn't fun! Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA26876 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:50 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26871 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:43:45 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08986; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986 at moe.2bsd.com> To: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca, sms at moe.2bsd.com Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998 > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) Andromeda Systems, Inc. 9000 Eton Avenue Canoga Park, CA 91304 818-709-7600 (voice) 818-709-7407 (FAX) No mention of a WWW site though. I'd imagine their boards, while very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. WOW. That is quite surprising. > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' operations. Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26957 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:53 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from alph02.triumf.ca (alph02.Triumf.CA [142.90.114.18]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26952 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:09:49 +1100 (EST) Received: by alph02.triumf.ca; id AA19319; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 From: Tim Shoppa Message-Id: <9803012009.AA19319 at alph02.triumf.ca> Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and > > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an > I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they > are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-)) > Andromeda Systems, Inc. > 9000 Eton Avenue > Canoga Park, CA 91304 > 818-709-7600 (voice) > 818-709-7407 (FAX) > > No mention of a WWW site though. Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/ > I'd imagine their boards, while > very good, are quite expensive. As much as I'd like a Zip drive > on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-) Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind! The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies. > > 2. "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi > > and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP. > > WOW. That is quite surprising. > > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'. I suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite early on. In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes close to the SCDC. 2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive. > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware. 100 Mbytes is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit. Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27003 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:58 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26998 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:32:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17077; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:32:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jimc at zach1.tiac.net) Received: from zach1.tiac.net (zach1.tiac.net [206.119.129.250]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26747; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:32:25 GMT (envelope-from jimc at zach1.tiac.net) Message-Id: From: jimc@zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter) Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely To: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:32:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986 at moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk > > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time, > > Quite so. Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' > operations. > > Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip? I know there's the > 2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip. On > the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb > "zip like" (but not compatible) drive. I don't know anything about larger Zip drives but Syquest makes the EZFlyer 230MB which is compatible with the EZFlyer 135. I got one for Christmas and love it. I _believe_ it's a bit faster than the Zip. The EZFlyer data sheet is at http://www.syquest.com/products/d_ezflyer.html in case anybody is interested. - Jim -- James E. Carpenter E-Mail: jimc at zach1.tiac.net 6 Munroe Drive Plainville, MA 02762-1108 ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W PGP: 7ADE9D99 Fingerprint: 8D AF 63 EC D3 51 14 3E F1 59 8A 68 32 63 3F 8E Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27181 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:46:55 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27176 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:46:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01813 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199803012147.IAA01813 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:47:07 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for the following reasons: + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM + impervious to magnetic fields + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and add new stuff to it. + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive. However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this. + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot make money on the CD-ROMs Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive. Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but they are a _good_ way of doing so. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27230 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:09:37 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27225 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:09:32 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA07315; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA07427; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980302083925.10323 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:39:25 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs References: <199803012147.IAA01813 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803012147.IAA01813 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:47:07AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, for > the following reasons: > > + you can't easily write over the CD-ROM > + impervious to magnetic fields > + the PUPS archive is always going to be changing, as I find and > add new stuff to it. > + the SCO license enforces that I get written permission before I > pass anything to a third party. Taking this in a conservative > fashion, this might rule out a password-protected ftp archive. > However, I'll check with Dion at SCO on this. > + we can only charge fees for copying and distribution, and cannot > make money on the CD-ROMs > > Therefore, treat the archive CD-ROM like you would the FreeBSD or Linux > distributions on CD-ROM: they will go out of date, but you can purchase > new versions of the CD-ROM, and they should be relatively inexpensive. I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated volume. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27282 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:10 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27277 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:06 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01996 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199803012229.JAA01996 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:29:23 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19980302083925.10323 at freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 2, 98 08:39:25 am" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Greg Lehey: > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 8:47:07 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > > All, > > re the question `Are CD-ROMs the best method of distributing the > > PUPS archive of PDP-11 UNIX material'? The answer is: it's a good method, > > for the following reasons: > I still miss the distinction between CD-ROMs and WORMs. CD-ROMs are > relatively expensive in small quantities, not just because of the > setup costs, but also because of the wastage involved. WORMs > (writeable CD-ROMs) are probably a better choice for the anticipated > volume. > Greg Sorry, my fault. I use CD-ROM to mean anything which can be read in a CD-ROM drive. That obviously includes CD-W, which is what I really mean here. Ciao, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27317 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:20 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27312 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02051 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199803012238.JAA02051 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:33 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199803012228.OAA27094 at rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Mar 1, 98 02:28:21 pm" Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk In article by Chris Drake: > >Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but > >they are a _good_ way of doing so. > > Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are > on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut > some at work, but not if we're talking lots. I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months. I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the individual workload down. I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here. People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image. Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed email describing the license, before I can give access to the archive. Does this sound reasonable, everyone? Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27506 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:32 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27501 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:17:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07479; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog at localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA07855; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:01 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980302104701.60748 at freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:47:01 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs References: <199803012228.OAA27094 at rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> <199803012238.JAA02051 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803012238.JAA02051 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 09:38:33AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 9:38:33 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote: > In article by Chris Drake: >>> Ok, so CD-ROMs are not the _best_ method of distributing the archive, but >>> they are a _good_ way of doing so. >> >> Sounds good to me... Just out of curiosity, got any idea how many people are >> on this list and/or might want a CD? I may have a limited ability to cut >> some at work, but not if we're talking lots. > > I'd say at least 100 initially, and at least 300 in the first 12 months. > I'm trying to organise a bunch of people who can burn CDs, to keep the > individual workload down. > > I'll be creating a Rock Ridge image using mkisofs from the archive here. > People who are prepared to burn CDs can either download the image, or the > entire archive. For the latter, I'll include a makefile to build the CD image. > > Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: > > + will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think this is still a valuable service. > + must be covered by a license. I will need either a signed > letter (on paper) describing the license, or a PGP-signed > email describing the license, before I can give access to > the archive. Right. Any further news about when this could happen? > Does this sound reasonable, everyone? Modulo my point above, yes. Greg Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27526 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:24:46 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27521 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:24:43 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06066 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199803020025.LAA06066 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Re: PDP UNIX and CD-ROMs To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:25:00 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk Greg writes: >> Oviously, people who do mirror the archive: >> will be asked to burn CDs, and will do so, >> > As I mentioned before, I can cut tapes, but not burn CDs. I think > this is still a valuable service. Apologies again, Greg. Yes cutting tapes will also be valuable, esp. for people who have a PDP-11. > Right. Any further news about when this could happen? No, I'm waiting on feedback from Dion. He did say he had started the process of making it a product, but I don't have an ETA for it at the moment. Many thanks again for volunteering!! Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27839 for pups-liszt; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:04 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au: major set sender to owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au using -f Received: from henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27834 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:40:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06698 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199803020141.MAA06698 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> Subject: Part of PUPS Archive via FTP To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:41:16 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Precedence: bulk All, To show you what I'm thinking of for the CD-ROM version of the PUPS archive, I've put the unlicensed parts up for anonymous ftp at: ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/PUPS_Archive/ I've kept the directory structure intact, but you won't find any files that require a source license. I'd appreciate any comments. Note that there's a directory called Trees missing. It will contain `exploded' trees for v6, v7 and 2.11BSD. The Lists directory is interesting: it contains tar vtf listings of all tarballs in the archive, with added checksums so you can determine identical files in multiple tarballs. This is all rough cut at the moment, so don't treat anything as unchangeable. Warren