* 4.4BSD
[not found] <19990126054206.A13245@rek.tjls.com>
@ 1999-01-26 20:36 ` Johnny Billquist
0 siblings, 0 replies; only message in thread
From: Johnny Billquist @ 1999-01-26 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...
> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> >
> > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> > supposed to be driven.
I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
you have.
> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I
> want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
> about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
> a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
> which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system
> you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree
> about this.
No, Solokov isn't likely to please you.
> > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> >
> > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
>
> Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
> respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.
Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more
or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for
raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones
relief.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield.
The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people
actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
> is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
Only VMS does.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198 at moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Hi Johnny -
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
> here I go again...
Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-(
> I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
> > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ...
Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel.
> Unfortunately he started posting here instead.
;-(
> Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Steven Schultz
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262226.JAA05633 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm"
To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
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In article by Michael Sokolov:
> allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
>
> > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
>
> The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
> Why not have VAX ones too?
Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive
which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive.
This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute
the archive, and for other sundry stuff.
If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they
must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing applies to the main archive.
I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
software license.
Cheers,
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
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Just my $0.02 worth.
I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.
I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.
I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.
However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!
Cheers,
Warren
P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000 at dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am"
To: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by alejandro gonzalez:
>
> Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
> distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
> the orginial distribution
>
> The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
> etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
>
> Alex
All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
Warren
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
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All,
Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
Many thanks,
Warren
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu@ecubics.com>
To: <wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au>, "Unix Heritage Society" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
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Hi,
----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM
> I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly
to
> give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
> He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
> b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
> the CD set.
That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.
> I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
> via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
> recompensed for his work.
NO problem with that.
> However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to
see,
> and it will be added!
Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.
> P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
> a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.
Sorry about this.
emanuel
So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))
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To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch <robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
References: <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
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In message <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>All,
> Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
>of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
>maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
>way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
>
>Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
>post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
>Many thanks,
>
> Warren
FWITW
I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel
as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine,
that makes it easier.
Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts
on one type of OS or whatever.
Cheers
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET)
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt@Update.UU.SE>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198 at moe.2bsd.com>
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On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi Johnny -
Hi there, Steven.
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
>
> I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC
> is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
> the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA
> is what is driving Compaq/dec now.
Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are
still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect
them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But
there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also,
some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is
the more developed, and supported OS.
While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
relying on a separate, manual program for it.
And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-)
> > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
>
> Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
> although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have
> their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
> posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
> tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".
Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be
info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any*
forum for pdp-11 stuff.
I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than
2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for.
Johnny
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:40:23 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199901270040.TAA03506 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
> > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
^^^^^^
> > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
>
> FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
> Only VMS does.
See the line of carets up there.
BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would
readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even
MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:41:17 -0500
From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Message-Id: <199901270041.TAA03508 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
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Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:
> I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
> PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
> software license.
Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
compressed and uuencoded.
Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199901270035.QAA13940 at moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Hi -
> Johnny Billquist
> Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now.
> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all).
Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented
very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to
read;)).
Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let
the adaptor do the BBR <g>
Steven
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Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500
From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com>
To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Message-Id: <990126203819.2020009f at trailing-edge.com>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that
it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block
replacement working passably. And there still remain
situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations.
Tim.
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Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496 at krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg@krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03412 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
> development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
> the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
> 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.
Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496 at krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg@krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
References: <199901261944.OAA03415 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
> oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
> my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
> moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
> software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
> supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
> non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
> universally agreed to be unethical.
As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting.
BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against
other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again
citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting
*BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it
comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate
it's value and impact.
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496 at krdl.org.sg>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800
From: "Joerg B. Micheel" <joerg@krdl.org.sg>
To: Michael Sokolov <mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu>, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
References: <199901270041.TAA03508 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500
Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore
Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network
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On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
> of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
> copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
> an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
> compressed and uuencoded.
With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite
willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the
purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely.
If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give
it a try ...
Joerg
--
Joerg B. Micheel Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications
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(envelope-from wkt)
From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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All,
I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...
1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....
2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.
To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
quasijarus at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
announcements about this system can reach them.
In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these
mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
announcements.
3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
single `best' system.
4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
list postings.
I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.
Thanks all,
Warren
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From: norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Message-Id: <199901270330.OAA20297 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: the contents of this mailing list
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:28:33 -0500
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My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:
It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).
More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.
To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.
Norman Wilson
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496 at krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am"
To: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
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In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.
No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.
Warren
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199901270342.AA19227 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
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<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f
That is not the problem. You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.
<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful.
Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that
they were grandfatherd. In either case by not doing that your potentially
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit. Copyright is
a legal issue.
<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM
Not an issue and that is not the rom image.
<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.
Not true. While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still
their ownership. Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts
are still quite available.
Allison
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Message-Id: <199901270343.AA19561 at world.std.com>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr
The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased
with public domain trimmings to anyone. Calling it opression or anything
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.
<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.
When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem. Copyrighted firmware
is not that.
Allison
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From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
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Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely. Ultrix never drive
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS. It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.
Allison
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From: norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca
Message-Id: <199901270434.PAA00279 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: UNIX robustness
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:32:49 -0500
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Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive
a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific
cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts
I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP
routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0).
Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only
for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the
disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.)
Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these
systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned
in 1990 or 1991.
Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
Norman Wilson
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From: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199901270438.PAA01836 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm"
To: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca
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In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
> Norman Wilson
Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by
power failure.
Warren
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: UNIX robustness
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At least it's a different thread... ;-)
I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
couple months after that the disk died ;-)
Steven
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From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness
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Hi -
I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without
reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started
over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died.
Sigh.
Steven
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Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800
From: "David C. Jenner" <djenner@halcyon.com>
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To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671 at moe.2bsd.com>
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I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
power failure finally got it.
It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The
system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.
Dave
"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>
> I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
> the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
> and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system
> was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
> never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the
> load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
> paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A
> couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> Steven
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From: Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920 at math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni)
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Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the
University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX
one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code
that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think).
We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think,
driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can
check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details
if someone is interested. -- Ken
| In article by alejandro gonzalez:
| >
| > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
| > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
| > the orginial distribution
| >
| > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
| > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
| >
| > Alex
|
| All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
| Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
| they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
| Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
|
| Warren
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From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp@spektr.eu.org>
To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
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Thor Lancelot Simon < tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>...or vi versus Emacs.
What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
--
Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3))
jp at spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200
spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS)
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From: "emanuel stiebler" <emu@ecubics.com>
To: "Jorgen Pehrson" <jp at spektr.eu.org>,
"PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700
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Hi Jorgen,
----------
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp at spektr.eu.org>
> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM
> What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
SURE !!!
I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
line printer console ;-))
cheers,
emanuel
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1999-01-26 20:36 ` 4.4BSD Johnny Billquist
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