From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: bqt@Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:36:49 +0100 (MET) Subject: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <19990126054206.A13245@rek.tjls.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but here I go again... > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Thor Lancelot Simon wrote: > > > > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very > > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very > > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only > > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's > > supposed to be driven. I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs you have. > When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know. It won't even > run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any > time soon. But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven" > is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least. I > want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining > about. I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and > a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC, > which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable. So any system > you produce is not likely to be useful to me. Let's agree to disagree > about this. No, Solokov isn't likely to please you. > > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD > > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...] > > > > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors. > > Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to > respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with. As > I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons; > you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development > from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares? There's certainly room > for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative. Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones relief. Unfortunately he started posting here instead. Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield. The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA17274 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA17269 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:52:10 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25319; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:01 +0100 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist To: Michael Sokolov cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. Only VMS does. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17935 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:31 +1100 (EST) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17927 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:22 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA13198 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199901262223.OAA13198 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Johnny - > From: Johnny Billquist > Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but > here I go again... Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-( > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA is what is driving Compaq/dec now. > > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS. > > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ... Amen! Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel. > Unfortunately he started posting here instead. ;-( > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Steven Schultz Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA17955 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:58 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17948 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:24:51 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05633; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901262226.JAA05633 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999 8:25:12 pm" To: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Michael Sokolov: > allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > > > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware! > > The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. > Why not have VAX ones too? Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive. This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute the archive, and for other sundry stuff. If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone. The same thing applies to the main archive. I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC software license. Cheers, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18138 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:55 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18130 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:34:48 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05730 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901262236.JAA05730 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Just my $0.02 worth. I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto the CD set. I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent. I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been recompensed for his work. However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, and it will be added! Cheers, Warren P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. Thanks. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18201 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18193 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:37:01 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05749; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901262238.JAA05749 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games In-Reply-To: from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999 8:27:15 am" To: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by alejandro gonzalez: > > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in > the orginial distribution > > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? > > Alex All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA18317 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:50 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18307 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:41 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA05790 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Split of PUPS mail list?? To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. Many thanks, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA18975 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:28 +1100 (EST) Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18970 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:20 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.186.71]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA10955; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:21:15 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" To: , "Unix Heritage Society" Subject: Re: Why not 4.4BSD? Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955 at p2350> Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi, ---------- > From: Warren Toomey > To: Unix Heritage Society > Subject: Why not 4.4BSD? > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM > I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to > give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases. > He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and > b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto > the CD set. That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that. > I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either > via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been > recompensed for his work. NO problem with that. > However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see, > and it will be added! Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing. > P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least > a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints. I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are my fault. Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions. Sorry about this. emanuel So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-)) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19191 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:18 +1100 (EST) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19185 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:48:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from [158.152.152.109] (helo=falstaf.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 105IDD-0002AZ-00; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:48:04 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000 To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Cc: Unix Heritage Society From: Robin Birch Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? References: <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike (32) Version 4.01 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In message <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey writes >All, > Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split >of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the >maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either >way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members. > >Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will >post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > >Many thanks, > > Warren FWITW I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier. If people feel as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine, that makes it easier. Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts on one type of OS or whatever. Cheers Robin ____________________________________________________________________ Robin Birch robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19541 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:34 +1100 (EST) Received: from Zeke.Update.UU.SE (IDENT:2026 at Zeke.Update.UU.SE [130.238.11.14]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19535 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:14:23 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (bqt at localhost) by Zeke.Update.UU.SE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29902; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET) From: Johnny Billquist To: "Steven M. Schultz" cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198 at moe.2bsd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote: > Hi Johnny - Hi there, Steven. > > From: Johnny Billquist > > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else... > > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs > > I maintain the opposite. VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of > VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen. Since DEC > is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is > the winner/driver. Are Vaxen even being made any longer? The ALPHA > is what is driving Compaq/dec now. Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also, some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is the more developed, and supported OS. While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, relying on a separate, manual program for it. And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-) > > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical > > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and > > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a > > Hear hear! PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX > although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have > their own forums though). I doubt anyone would be upset if someone > posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting > tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD". Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any* forum for pdp-11 stuff. I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than 2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19584 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:26:45 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19579 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:26:36 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id TAA11497 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma011495; Tue, 26 Jan 99 19:26:27 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id TAA12535; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:30:36 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma012533; Wed, 27 Jan 99 00:30:35 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA03506; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:40:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:40:23 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901270040.TAA03506 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There ^^^^^^ > > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could > > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself. > > FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made. > Only VMS does. See the line of carets up there. BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19598 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:38 +1100 (EST) Received: from eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (eclipse.SCL.CWRU.Edu [129.22.32.56]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19593 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:29 +1100 (EST) Received: (from smap at localhost) by eclipse.scl.cwru.edu (8.8.8/adam2.2) id TAA11509 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from (k2.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.50]) by eclipse via smap (V2.0) id xma011507; Tue, 26 Jan 99 19:27:22 -0500 Received: by k2.cwru.edu (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id TAA12546; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:31:32 -0500 Received: from (skybridge.scl.cwru.edu [129.22.32.1]) by k2.scl.cwru.edu via smap (V2.0) id xma012542; Wed, 27 Jan 99 00:31:29 GMT Received: by skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA03508; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:41:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:41:17 -0500 From: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <199901270041.TAA03508 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Warren Toomey wrote: > I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the > PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC > software license. Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you compressed and uuencoded. Michael Sokolov TUHS 4BSD Coordinator 4.3BSD-* Maintainer Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA19626 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:36:07 +1100 (EST) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA19621 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:59 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA13940 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199901270035.QAA13940 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - > Johnny Billquist > Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-) Yeah, it could. So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now. > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all). Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to read;)). Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let the adaptor do the BBR Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19853 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:36 +1100 (EST) Received: from timaxp.trailing-edge.com (trailing-edge.wdn.com [198.232.144.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA19848 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:38:25 +1100 (EST) Received: by timaxp.trailing-edge.com for PUPS at MINNIE.cs.adfa.EDU.AU; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500 From: Tim Shoppa To: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Message-Id: <990126203819.2020009f at trailing-edge.com> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk > While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented > the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly, If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block replacement working passably. And there still remain situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations. Tim. Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA19979 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:21 +1100 (EST) Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19973 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:11:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06573; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:16:51 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA23639; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:10:57 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg at localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00603; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" To: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03412 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS > development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do > the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since > 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make. Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20001 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:56 +1100 (EST) Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19994 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:15:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA06726; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:13 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24145; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:15:18 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg at localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00610; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" To: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD References: <199901261944.OAA03415 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's > oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct > my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full > moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit > software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are > supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a > non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be > universally agreed to be unethical. As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting. BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting *BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate it's value and impact. Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20076 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:37:07 +1100 (EST) Received: from krdl.org.sg (rodin.krdl.org.sg [137.132.252.27]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20066 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from mailhost.krdl.org.sg (mailbox.krdl.org.sg [137.132.247.30]) by krdl.org.sg (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA07433; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:42:41 +0800 (SGT) Received: from negara.nus.sg (negara [137.132.248.175]) by mailhost.krdl.org.sg (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA26506; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:36:47 +0800 (SGT) Received: (from joerg at localhost) by negara.nus.sg (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id DAA00622; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496 at krdl.org.sg> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800 From: "Joerg B. Micheel" To: Michael Sokolov , pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image References: <199901270041.TAA03508 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508 at skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500 Organization: Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Singapore Project: SingAREN, the Singapore Advanced Research and Education Network Operating-System: ... drained by Solaris 7 Intel Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea > of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid > copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have > an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you > compressed and uuencoded. With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely. If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give it a try ... Joerg -- Joerg B. Micheel Email: SingAREN Technology Center Phone: +65 8742582 Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041 Fax: +65 7744990 21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace Pager: +65 96016020 Singapore 119613 Plan: Troubleshooting ATM Republic of Singapore Networks and Applications Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20167 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:24 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20162 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:49:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA01515 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901270251.NAA01515 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk All, I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go... 1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the above. It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However.... 2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development, including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers should create a communications channel to target their own audience. For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd. To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus, quasijarus at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures. Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and announcements about this system can reach them. In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and announcements. 3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no single `best' system. 4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone, then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive. If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their list postings. I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to the list as it is now. Thanks all, Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20302 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:14 +1100 (EST) Received: from nose.cita.utoronto.ca (nose.cita.utoronto.ca [128.100.76.157]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA20297 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:30:03 +1100 (EST) From: norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca Message-Id: <199901270330.OAA20297 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: the contents of this mailing list To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:28:33 -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk My two cents' worth on the latest fuss: It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve the present problem. The real trouble right now is one or two people who cannot resist waving their antlers around in public. We could eliminate them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7) to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7, that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between 2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?). There's also a genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI peripheral devices for a start). More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting everything to everyone no matter how peripheral. (Which is not to say that discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.) For example, I had a handful of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them directly to him. To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public. Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20323 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20318 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:37:02 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01601; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901270338.OAA01601 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: Split of PUPS mail list?? In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496 at krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999 3:50:54 am" To: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society) Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by Joerg B. Micheel: > > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will > > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do. > > You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split. No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them next week. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA20369 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:03 +1100 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA20364 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:42:54 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA16834; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19227; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:42:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:42:44 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199901270342.AA19227 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:18 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA16888; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19561; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:07 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199901270343.AA19561 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:43:22 +1100 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA16899; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19655; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:14 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:14 -0500 From: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Message-Id: <199901270343.AA19655 at world.std.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:19 +1100 (EST) From: norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca Message-Id: <199901270434.PAA00279 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: UNIX robustness To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:32:49 -0500 Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific cases where the system did pretty well. The collection of MicroVAX II parts I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0). Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only for hardware failures. (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.) Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned in 1990 or 1991. Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories? Norman Wilson Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA00311 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:09 +1100 (EST) Received: from henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (henry.cs.adfa.oz.au [131.236.21.158]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00306 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:03 +1100 (EST) Received: (from wkt at localhost) by henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01836; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from wkt) From: Warren Toomey Message-Id: <199901270438.PAA01836 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> Subject: Re: UNIX robustness In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279 at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm" To: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST) Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca: > Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories? > Norman Wilson Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by power failure. Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00561 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:17 +1100 (EST) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00553 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:07 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15671 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199901270512.VAA15671 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: UNIX robustness Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk At least it's a different thread... ;-) I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A couple months after that the disk died ;-) Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA00604 for pups-liszt; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from moe.2bsd.com (0 at MOE.2BSD.COM [206.139.202.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00597 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:15:17 +1100 (EST) Received: (from sms at localhost) by moe.2bsd.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA15701 for pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Schultz" Message-Id: <199901270515.VAA15701 at moe.2bsd.com> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi - I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without reboooting. Then the power went out and spoiled the streak. Started over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died. Sigh. Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA02469 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:26:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from mgate.nwnexus.com (mgate.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.200]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02464 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:25:59 +1100 (EST) Received: from halcyon.com (66-a-usw.rb1.blv.nwnexus.net [206.63.251.66]) by mgate.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19391 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:25:37 -0800 Message-ID: <36AF136E.8FB4C233 at halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800 From: "David C. Jenner" Reply-To: djenner at halcyon.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society Subject: Re: UNIX robustness References: <199901270512.VAA15671 at moe.2bsd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the net from 1989-1993. At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a power failure finally got it. It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software. The system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem. Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. Dave "Steven M. Schultz" wrote: > > At least it's a different thread... ;-) > > I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard > the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it > and a beefier replacement system installed. The original system > was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was > never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years. As time went on the > load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and > paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed. A > couple months after that the disk died ;-) > > Steven Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA02732 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:15:08 +1100 (EST) Received: from math.uwaterloo.ca (kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.140.144]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA02724 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:14:58 +1100 (EST) Received: (from kcwellsc at localhost) by math.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30920; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Wellsch Message-Id: <199901271514.KAA30920 at math.uwaterloo.ca> Subject: Re: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu, pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility (Alumni) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX one) just for the *real* troff code. When I say "real" I mean the code that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think). We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think, driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details if someone is interested. -- Ken | In article by alejandro gonzalez: | > | > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are | > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in | > the orginial distribution | > | > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff, | > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where? | > | > Alex | | All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken | Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However, | they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as | Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX. | | Warren Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03183 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:23:01 +1100 (EST) Received: from spektr.eu.org (spektr.ludvika.se [194.18.168.68]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03175 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:22:52 +1100 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by spektr.eu.org (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25728 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET) From: Jorgen Pehrson To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Thor Lancelot Simon < tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote: >...or vi versus Emacs. What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) -- Jorgen Pehrson (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3)) jp at spektr.eu.org (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200 spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS) Received: (from major at localhost) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA03270 for pups-liszt; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:12 +1100 (EST) Received: from biz1.mailsrvcs.net (biz1.gte.net [207.115.153.50]) by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA03265 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:42:04 +1100 (EST) Received: from p2350 ([208.254.191.195]) by biz1.mailsrvcs.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40549L5000S0) with ESMTP id AAA5105; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:41:58 -0600 From: "emanuel stiebler" To: "Jorgen Pehrson" , "PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society" Subject: Re: 4.4BSD Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990127174150.AAA5105 at p2350> Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Precedence: bulk Hi Jorgen, ---------- > From: Jorgen Pehrson > To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society > Subject: Re: 4.4BSD > Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :) SURE !!! I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a line printer console ;-)) cheers, emanuel