From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 1781 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2023 20:22:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 19 Jan 2023 20:22:05 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EE3424B3; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 06:21:42 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuhs.org; s=dkim; t=1674159703; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-owner:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=c/tckUtFRzErhSTqu0fyUz9k2BsU9uBzEbzCmEHSFCU=; b=oq16zaAGpSX5utPZILIqtWuTnZG4wMUkhUUdry1fCVIkttLFWJgusx1Cj9G6wHf0WfL2B3 /sZ6bMBKQhXtIVumsuKmpfoeXZ7nOfQhgEeuVJ+SDm+ueYHuc7LpcMSAO+lP5RIEgX6wT3 bDnpuvzy5wYn3hKzuzp9+2SXZ6nPp4c= Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch (mail-4325.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.25]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A836424B2 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 06:21:38 +1000 (AEST) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:21:30 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1674159695; x=1674418895; bh=c/tckUtFRzErhSTqu0fyUz9k2BsU9uBzEbzCmEHSFCU=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=gq4yt+KhKhgwr7CR+gzK7s69XoniP5U6dljiHlnEfqRJf9tzW7EXUjTOA0t2IXwkJ IIIHYUjKhCVXWv6Ah66JeU9lPX4euoq4feiVEv/S1+WmHlLhmO1HV8WPouyI93gXiF zQQlX/28G1Ierciomqfs+j6OiK2I99YaLmHxATK0XEtw55NVTzwdC0Z/Hc7YCYZWi/ JiD4WNmvXLi4tDvXhAkINlwL53AlB/6U1nCF8lU5UZ1UApoGxuR4oO6fMkSjaGAf+j RIXG7y5TxlL87onT8v0wfSUBJBoy5t7CU8p5RK/kARttC1ap2NktOIZckOKzaWi+Bs uMg+khcYb7/zg== To: Steve Nickolas Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Feedback-ID: 35591162:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: LGKLWX6D42IMK6UL3M47ER5PTC7WASBW X-Message-ID-Hash: LGKLWX6D42IMK6UL3M47ER5PTC7WASBW X-MailFrom: segaloco@protonmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: AIX moved into maintainance mode (fwd) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: From: segaloco via TUHS Reply-To: segaloco In my own internal narrative at least, my stance is BSD is UNIX moreso than= not in that the code may have changed, there may not even be a lick of AT&= T in there (not true, handful of files, SCO lawsuit, etc.), but it's still = UNIX in design, much more than say something like Linux could be considered= . It's like if some architect inherited the Empire State Building but was = then told you can only do anything with it if you replace everything. In the end, it's still going to be different than taking a plot of land and= deciding, hey, I want to build something like the Empire State Building. = In the former sense, you can start to replace the windows, then the door, t= hen the elevators, etc etc, over time, you see a gradual transition of A in= to B, which leads to unmistakable vestiges since they were actively being w= orked around and within in the replacement process. With the latter, you instead have an external vision of what you want to pr= esent, and may even be able to visibly present it better than the original = since you are going ground up, best practices can be employed, etc. Howeve= r, there is a high likelihood that you strip all the cladding and drywall a= way and the way the actual steel beams are arranged and the load bearing su= pports and such are likely radically different because they didn't have to = be carefully created in a way to truss up the existing structure above them= , they just had to be able to support that outward appearance everyone want= s. Analogy over, that's just kinda how I think about that any time the questio= n of BSD's "UNIX-ness" comes up. Neither building in the above scenario wo= uld be bad, they would just have different design goals informing how they = work internally vs externally. BSD wanted to be UNIX compatible for folks = familiar with every level, Linux just wanted to present a kernel that one c= ould drop a UNIX-y userland on, but at least in my understanding replicatin= g internal behaviors, structuring, and practices of UNIX was never a design= goal/requirement. - Matt G. ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, January 19th, 2023 at 12:08 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote: > Accidentally sent this only to the person I was replying to. >=20 > > I am getting some grief on Twitter too for "omitting" FreeBSD. I > > didn't, but the BSDs don't fit either definition of "Unix". The > > pre-1993 one being "based on AT&T code" -- after all, BSD (4.4 Lite r2 > > was it? Before my time!) -- went to a lot of effort to eliminate AT&T > > code. >=20 >=20 > From what I've seen it's very much a gradual transition; 4.3-Tahoe starts= to > have the new code and UCB copyright notices with the predecessor of what = we call > the "BSD License" appearing in some of the source files. Then with Reno, = a > majority of the userland is open-sourced, and Net/2 is fairly complete. (= Net/2 > and 4.4BSD-Lite / Lite/2 were lacking a few things.) But even right up un= til > the end things were in a state of flux. >=20 > A few things weren't finished until much later by the FreeBSD, OpenBSD an= d > NetBSD people. >=20 > -uso.