[TUHS] Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[TUHS] Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Al Kossow]

FYI, for people like me that care about 80s 68K Unix systemf
There is a pretty serious multi-purpose preservation effort that started a few weeks ago
around Plexus systems as a result of a series of YouTube videos

https://youtu.be/iltZYXg5hZw
https://github.com/misterblack1/plexus-p20/

[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Steve Nickolas]

On Wed, 19 Jun 2024, Al Kossow wrote:

>
>
> FYI, for people like me that care about 80s 68K Unix systemf
> There is a pretty serious multi-purpose preservation effort that started a 
> few weeks ago
> around Plexus systems as a result of a series of YouTube videos
>
> https://youtu.be/iltZYXg5hZw
> https://github.com/misterblack1/plexus-p20/
>

Adrian Black - same person who kicked off the Nabu craze (and yes, I've 
got one of those).  Apparently with the help of Usagi Electric, who made 
his name reverse-engineering a couple Centurion minis.

-uso.

[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Al Kossow]

On 6/19/24 9:20 AM, Steve Nickolas wrote:

> Adrian Black - same person who kicked off the Nabu craze (and yes, I've got one of those).  Apparently with the help of Usagi Electric, who 
> made his name reverse-engineering a couple Centurion minis.
> 
> -uso.

He does seem to have the ability to geek snipe and marshal a lot of people

[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Grant Taylor via TUHS]

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On 6/19/24 12:22, Al Kossow wrote:
> He does seem to have the ability to geek snipe and marshal a lot 
> of people

Please clarify, are you referring to Adrian and / or David (?) a.k.a. Usagi?

I'm also enjoying Caleb (?) a.k.a. clabretro quite a bit.

Aside:  I think I have those names correct.

Adrian has long been a quick to watch.  David and Caleb have surpassed 
Adrian only because their content is more aligned with parts an pieces 
that I have in my lag.  }:-)

The Plexus P/20 min-series is VERY interesting.  :-D

I also really like the emphasis that Adrian is making on collecting 
what's necessary for someone to create an emulator for the Plexus P/20.

The (forthcoming) 5th video (I'm a patron with early access) has some 
interesting bits about SCSI IDs and LUNs that I may bring up for 
discussion on COFF as they aren't super on topic for TUHS.



-- 
Grant. . . .

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[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Kevin Bowling]

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On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 12:07 AM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

>
>
> FYI, for people like me that care about 80s 68K Unix systemf
> There is a pretty serious multi-purpose preservation effort that started a
> few weeks ago
> around Plexus systems as a result of a series of YouTube videos
>
> https://youtu.be/iltZYXg5hZw
> https://github.com/misterblack1/plexus-p20/


Seems like yet another mediocre UNIX port at first, but then they happen to
find the system schematic netlists and PAL equations in addition to partial
source code on the hard disk.  If those are published that will make a
quite wholesome thing to study.

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[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Al Kossow]

On 6/19/24 3:25 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:

> Seems like yet another mediocre UNIX port at first, but then they happen to find the system schematic netlists and PAL equations in addition 
> to partial source code on the hard disk.  If those are published that will make a quite wholesome thing to study.

I tried to stress on their discord that finding things like that 40 years out is a very unusual occurence.
I've spent decades digging through people's garages trying to find stuff like that for bitsavers.

[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Kevin Bowling]

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On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 6:46 AM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 6/19/24 3:25 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>
> > Seems like yet another mediocre UNIX port at first, but then they happen
> to find the system schematic netlists and PAL equations in addition
> > to partial source code on the hard disk.  If those are published that
> will make a quite wholesome thing to study.
>
> I tried to stress on their discord that finding things like that 40 years
> out is a very unusual occurence.
> I've spent decades digging through people's garages trying to find stuff
> like that for bitsavers.


I’m weak in my DEC history and collection but I’ve heard some in person
stories that VMS source was not impossible to find on microfiche at certain
institutions.  They might have had at least board level schematics too.
That situation would be roughly equivalent to IBM mainframes through the
1980s but you’d still be missing a lot of microcode and logic equations to
zoom in at any level for these two examples.

Are you aware of anything else where the whole kit and caboodle is
available?  Particularly keen on microcode and logic equations since that
stuff is indeed hard to come by.

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[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Rik Farrow]

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On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 3:58 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com>
wrote:

>
>
> I’m weak in my DEC history and collection but I’ve heard some in person
> stories that VMS source was not impossible to find on microfiche at certain
> institutions.  They might have had at least board level schematics too.
> That situation would be roughly equivalent to IBM mainframes through the
> 1980s but you’d still be missing a lot of microcode and logic equations to
> zoom in at any level for these two examples.
>
> Someone who had previously worked at Lawrence Livermore Labs offered me
the VMS source on microfiche, sometime around 1990. I turned him down...

Rik

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[TUHS] Re: Fwd: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Al Kossow]

On 6/19/24 4:03 PM, Rik Farrow wrote:

> Someone who had previously worked at Lawrence Livermore Labs offered me the VMS source on microfiche, sometime around 1990. I turned him 
> down...
> 
> Rik
> 

I have thousands of sheets of DEC Microfiche. Base VMS sources up through version 5-ish aren't rare.

Companies have regular purges of engineering documentation for obsolete products.

We were lucky at CHM to have a friend as the archivist at HP in the 00s and we were able to save lots of material
from a few of their computer lines (HP1000, 68K 9000, and some Apollo) and the DEC corporate paper
archive.

[TUHS] Re: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Peter Yardley]

We had VMS source on microfiche as part of he support contract. If you payed more you could have got it as machine readable.

> On 20 Jun 2024, at 8:58 AM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 6:46 AM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 6/19/24 3:25 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> 
> > Seems like yet another mediocre UNIX port at first, but then they happen to find the system schematic netlists and PAL equations in addition 
> > to partial source code on the hard disk.  If those are published that will make a quite wholesome thing to study.
> 
> I tried to stress on their discord that finding things like that 40 years out is a very unusual occurence.
> I've spent decades digging through people's garages trying to find stuff like that for bitsavers.
> 
> I’m weak in my DEC history and collection but I’ve heard some in person stories that VMS source was not impossible to find on microfiche at certain institutions.  They might have had at least board level schematics too.  That situation would be roughly equivalent to IBM mainframes through the 1980s but you’d still be missing a lot of microcode and logic equations to zoom in at any level for these two examples.
> 
> Are you aware of anything else where the whole kit and caboodle is available?  Particularly keen on microcode and logic equations since that stuff is indeed hard to come by.

Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Warner Losh]

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At one point, a google search could find most of the VMS source, at least
through VMS 5 or maybe 6. I didn't download it at the time and haven't
searched since... Given the ubiquity of vms on microfiche I wasn't
surprised at the time. A quick search today, though, comes up dry.

Warner

On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 5:21 PM Peter Yardley <peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com>
wrote:

> We had VMS source on microfiche as part of he support contract. If you
> payed more you could have got it as machine readable.
>
> > On 20 Jun 2024, at 8:58 AM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 6:46 AM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
> > On 6/19/24 3:25 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> >
> > > Seems like yet another mediocre UNIX port at first, but then they
> happen to find the system schematic netlists and PAL equations in addition
> > > to partial source code on the hard disk.  If those are published that
> will make a quite wholesome thing to study.
> >
> > I tried to stress on their discord that finding things like that 40
> years out is a very unusual occurence.
> > I've spent decades digging through people's garages trying to find stuff
> like that for bitsavers.
> >
> > I’m weak in my DEC history and collection but I’ve heard some in person
> stories that VMS source was not impossible to find on microfiche at certain
> institutions.  They might have had at least board level schematics too.
> That situation would be roughly equivalent to IBM mainframes through the
> 1980s but you’d still be missing a lot of microcode and logic equations to
> zoom in at any level for these two examples.
> >
> > Are you aware of anything else where the whole kit and caboodle is
> available?  Particularly keen on microcode and logic equations since that
> stuff is indeed hard to come by.
>
> Peter Yardley
> peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Peter Yardley]

There is still OpenVMS.

> On 20 Jun 2024, at 10:20 AM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> At one point, a google search could find most of the VMS source, at least through VMS 5 or maybe 6. I didn't download it at the time and haven't searched since... Given the ubiquity of vms on microfiche I wasn't surprised at the time. A quick search today, though, comes up dry.
> 
> Warner
> 
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 5:21 PM Peter Yardley <peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com> wrote:
> We had VMS source on microfiche as part of he support contract. If you payed more you could have got it as machine readable.
> 
> > On 20 Jun 2024, at 8:58 AM, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling@kev009.com> wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2024 at 6:46 AM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
> > On 6/19/24 3:25 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> > 
> > > Seems like yet another mediocre UNIX port at first, but then they happen to find the system schematic netlists and PAL equations in addition 
> > > to partial source code on the hard disk.  If those are published that will make a quite wholesome thing to study.
> > 
> > I tried to stress on their discord that finding things like that 40 years out is a very unusual occurence.
> > I've spent decades digging through people's garages trying to find stuff like that for bitsavers.
> > 
> > I’m weak in my DEC history and collection but I’ve heard some in person stories that VMS source was not impossible to find on microfiche at certain institutions.  They might have had at least board level schematics too.  That situation would be roughly equivalent to IBM mainframes through the 1980s but you’d still be missing a lot of microcode and logic equations to zoom in at any level for these two examples.
> > 
> > Are you aware of anything else where the whole kit and caboodle is available?  Particularly keen on microcode and logic equations since that stuff is indeed hard to come by.
> 
> Peter Yardley
> peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com
> 

Peter Yardley
peter.martin.yardley@gmail.com

[TUHS] Re: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Henry Bent]

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On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 at 20:20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> At one point, a google search could find most of the VMS source, at least
> through VMS 5 or maybe 6. I didn't download it at the time and haven't
> searched since... Given the ubiquity of vms on microfiche I wasn't
> surprised at the time. A quick search today, though, comes up dry.
>

Someone uploaded what looks to be a full set of VMS V4.0 microfiche to
archive.org, but they did it in such a way that it is hundreds of separate
documents instead of one cohesive collection.  I guess it's in keeping with
the "here it is, but not in a particularly easy to use format" idea of the
microfiche distribution...

I'm not a VMS person but I do look through a lot of DEC archives in more
and less above-board places and I've only ever seen VMS source up to V4.0.

-Henry

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[TUHS] Re: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[Warner Losh]

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On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 8:31 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 at 20:20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>> At one point, a google search could find most of the VMS source, at least
>> through VMS 5 or maybe 6. I didn't download it at the time and haven't
>> searched since... Given the ubiquity of vms on microfiche I wasn't
>> surprised at the time. A quick search today, though, comes up dry.
>>
>
> Someone uploaded what looks to be a full set of VMS V4.0 microfiche to
> archive.org, but they did it in such a way that it is hundreds of
> separate documents instead of one cohesive collection.  I guess it's in
> keeping with the "here it is, but not in a particularly easy to use format"
> idea of the microfiche distribution...
>

Pictures of printouts of listing of compiler output with various source
directives that control the ouput. It's hard to beat retyping by hand for
recovering the original source....

And these are what i found... and was part of an effort to recover the
original sources.... can't recall what hapoened to that...

Warner

I'm not a VMS person but I do look through a lot of DEC archives in more
> and less above-board places and I've only ever seen VMS source up to V4.0.
>
> -Henry
>

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[TUHS] Re: Anyone have Plexus docs/software squirreled away?

[segaloco via TUHS]

On Wednesday, June 19th, 2024 at 7:48 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2024, 8:31 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 19 Jun 2024 at 20:20, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > At one point, a google search could find most of the VMS source, at least through VMS 5 or maybe 6. I didn't download it at the time and haven't searched since... Given the ubiquity of vms on microfiche I wasn't surprised at the time. A quick search today, though, comes up dry.
> > 
> > 
> > Someone uploaded what looks to be a full set of VMS V4.0 microfiche to archive.org, but they did it in such a way that it is hundreds of separate documents instead of one cohesive collection. I guess it's in keeping with the "here it is, but not in a particularly easy to use format" idea of the microfiche distribution...
> 
> 
> Pictures of printouts of listing of compiler output with various source directives that control the ouput. It's hard to beat retyping by hand for recovering the original source....
> 
> And these are what i found... and was part of an effort to recover the original sources.... can't recall what hapoened to that...
> 
> Warner
> 
> 
> > I'm not a VMS person but I do look through a lot of DEC archives in more and less above-board places and I've only ever seen VMS source up to V4.0.
> > 
> > -Henry

It's a shame, a VMS source microfiche set popped up on eBay some time in the past year, I can't recall why I didn't hop on it.  I do keep an eye out though.  If I ever find another I may be fiching around for some help :)

- Matt G.