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* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
@ 2022-10-31 19:33 Nelson H. F. Beebe
  2022-11-01  3:25 ` Tomasz Rola
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Nelson H. F. Beebe @ 2022-10-31 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Larry McVoy reports today:

>> People like Sunview's api enough that there was an Xview toolkit which
>> was Sunview ported to X10/X11.

The interface was nicely documented in three editions of a book (I
have no entry for the second edition):

@String{pub-ORA                 = "O'Reilly \& {Associates, Inc.}"}
@String{pub-ORA:adr             = "981 Chestnut Street, Newton, MA 02164, USA"}

@Book{Heller:1990:XPM,
  author =       "Dan Heller",
  title =        "{XView} Programming Manual",
  volume =       "7",
  publisher =    pub-ORA,
  address =      pub-ORA:adr,
  pages =        "xxviii + 557",
  year =         "1990",
  ISBN =         "0-937175-38-2",
  ISBN-13 =      "978-0-937175-38-5",
  LCCN =         "QA76.76.W56 D44 v.7 1990",
  bibdate =      "Tue Dec 14 22:55:18 1993",
  bibsource =    "http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/master.bib",
  acknowledgement = ack-nhfb,
}

@Book{Heller:1991:XPM,
  author =       "Dan Heller",
  title =        "{XView} Programming Manual",
  volume =       "7A",
  publisher =    pub-ORA,
  address =      pub-ORA:adr,
  edition =      "Third",
  pages =        "xxxvii + 729",
  month =        sep,
  year =         "1991",
  ISBN =         "0-937175-87-0",
  ISBN-13 =      "978-0-937175-87-3",
  LCCN =         "QA76.76.W56 H447 1990",
  bibdate =      "Mon Jan 3 17:55:53 1994",
  bibsource =    "http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/master.bib",
  series =       "The Definitive guides to the X Window System",
  acknowledgement = ack-nhfb,
}

I have the first edition on a shelf near my campus office chair, and
continue to use olvwm as my window manager on multiple O/Ses, for 30+
years.

Every window manager designed since seems to fail to understand the
importance of user customizable, and pinnable, menus, which I exploit
to the hilt.  The menu customization goes into a single, easy to edit,
text file, $HOME/.openwin-menu.

Compare that to the Gnome desktop, with hundreds of files, many of
them binary, stored in hidden directories under $HOME, and for which
any corruption breaks the window system, and prevents login (except
via a GUI console).

Also. olvwm does not litter a default desktop with icons for
applications that many of use would never use: just a simple blank
desktop, with menu popups bound to mouse buttons.

With olvwm, you can have any number of virtual desktops, not just the
2 or 4 offered by more modern window manaugers, and unlike some of
those, windows can be dragged between desktops.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                                                          -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe@math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe@acm.org  beebe@computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 19:33 [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS Nelson H. F. Beebe
@ 2022-11-01  3:25 ` Tomasz Rola
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Tomasz Rola @ 2022-11-01  3:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 01:33:28PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> Larry McVoy reports today:
> 
> >> People like Sunview's api enough that there was an Xview toolkit which
> >> was Sunview ported to X10/X11.
> 
> The interface was nicely documented in three editions of a book (I
> have no entry for the second edition):
[...]
> 
> I have the first edition on a shelf near my campus office chair, and
> continue to use olvwm as my window manager on multiple O/Ses, for 30+
> years.

I think (that was so long ago) I had tried each of the guis mentioned
in the blog post, some of them for few hours only. X11 was the best
for me, and then I played with olwm. And then I discovered olvwm and
the concept of virtual desktop - yay, that was really great.

Later I was moved to another SunOS workstation which only had olwm and
they would not install anything when lowly life form asked for it. So
I ftp-ed it from previous workstation and tried, and it occurred that
binary was compatible and ran well... yay, again.

A bit later I had installed my first Linux (Slackware it was) and with it
came olvwm, so I was thrilled to have "emulated" workstation at home.

After that point, I gradually replaced every element of my desktop
environment with other stuff - csh became sh became bash, olvwm became
fvwm with even more virtual desktops, some text editor became emacs
and so on.

> Every window manager designed since seems to fail to understand the
> importance of user customizable, and pinnable, menus, which I exploit
> to the hilt.  The menu customization goes into a single, easy to edit,
> text file, $HOME/.openwin-menu.

I am not sure menus are that much important in my life. I liked fvwm
more, because I could more or less easily customize the key shortcuts
for various windows operations (maximize, iconify, resize, resize back
etc), sometimes in combination with mouse button. This and quickly
moving between desktops, arranging windows so neighbouring desktops
contain parts of the workflow.

Nowadays I prefer to run stuff from the terminal, via proper
commands. If it goes wonky, I can see what happened. This makes me a
bit more mess with more terminals but hey, iconify and hooray.

I only very rarely use menus.

> Compare that to the Gnome desktop, with hundreds of files, many of
> them binary, stored in hidden directories under $HOME, and for which
> any corruption breaks the window system, and prevents login (except
> via a GUI console).

Ah, Gnome and KDE, both are - for me at least - too big and too hard
to manage if something goes wrong. Once I started KDE after upgrade
(ok, that was decade and some years ago, it must have improved by
now), and it went blank at once and started to do 100% cpu and God
knows what (because I could not locate any messages about what it was
doing). Never solved this problem, never was willing to spend time on
it, switched back to fvwm and moved on. From preliminary diagnostics,
I suspect it had something to do with enormous number of html files
buried somewhere on my disc. The lousy thing tried to catalogue it and
probably went into O(n^k) loop.

Those environments are nice to the eye but cannot cope when something
is beyound recognition of their developers.

But they are indispensable when one installs Linux for someone who
really is not going to program their desktop, or edit config
files. For me, in such cases xfce is the nice mix of usability and
acceptable looks.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-11-05 10:38             ` Michael Casadevall
@ 2022-11-05 11:21               ` Liam Proven
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Liam Proven @ 2022-11-05 11:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Sat, 5 Nov 2022 at 11:38, Michael Casadevall <michael@casadevall.pro> wrote:
>
> No, its just the worst product naming scheme known to man.

To be fair -- something I rarely feel in connection with MICROS~1 --
when XP came out in 2002, AMD Sledgehammer did not exist yet. There
was no x86-64 and the only Intel 64-bit architecture was Itanium.

So I feel that they have some excuse.

We should actually give MS _some_ credit on this, because it's only
thanks to MS that Intel didn't do a totally separate incompatible
64-bit x86 extension.


-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-11-02 15:34           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-11-02 15:44             ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2022-11-05 10:38             ` Michael Casadevall
  2022-11-05 11:21               ` Liam Proven
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Michael Casadevall @ 2022-11-05 10:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

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On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 11:37 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On 11/2/22 2:55 AM, Michael Casadevall wrote:
> > I extensively researched this; there are infact copies of Pinball for
> > 64-bit platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EPTfOTC4Jw&t=47s
>
> Which 64-bit platforms?  64-bit x86 and / or 64-bit Itanium?
>
> I've not watched the video yet (today).
>
>
Both actually, since Microsoft included pinball.exe on the Itanium install
disk. Works too (although there are complications)


> > Pinball had problems relating to 64-bit FPU precision (and this can
> > actually be reproduced by fiddling with FPU flags), but it did ship in
> > Windows XP x64 Professional.
>
> My understanding is that Windows XP x64 Professional is 64-bit x86 and
> not Itanium.
>
> There is also a chance that I'm misremembering things.
>
>
>
No, its just the worst product naming scheme known to man.


>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-11-02 15:34           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2022-11-02 15:44             ` Michael Kjörling
  2022-11-05 10:38             ` Michael Casadevall
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2022-11-02 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2 Nov 2022 09:34 -0600, from tuhs@tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
>> Pinball had problems relating to 64-bit FPU precision (and this can
>> actually be reproduced by fiddling with FPU flags), but it did ship in
>> Windows XP x64 Professional.
> 
> My understanding is that Windows XP x64 Professional is 64-bit x86 and not
> Itanium.

Per Wikipedia, "Windows XP 64-Bit Edition" was for Intel's Itanium
IA-64 architecture; whereas "Windows XP Professional x64 Edition" was
for AMD's x86-64 architecture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP#Editions

You've just got to love it when two wildly distinct, yet highly
similar, things are named almost, but not quite, the same.

-- 
🪶 Michael Kjörling                  🏡 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-11-02  8:55         ` Michael Casadevall
@ 2022-11-02 15:34           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-11-02 15:44             ` Michael Kjörling
  2022-11-05 10:38             ` Michael Casadevall
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-11-02 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 11/2/22 2:55 AM, Michael Casadevall wrote:
> I extensively researched this; there are infact copies of Pinball for 
> 64-bit platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EPTfOTC4Jw&t=47s 

Which 64-bit platforms?  64-bit x86 and / or 64-bit Itanium?

I've not watched the video yet (today).

> Pinball had problems relating to 64-bit FPU precision (and this can 
> actually be reproduced by fiddling with FPU flags), but it did ship in 
> Windows XP x64 Professional.

My understanding is that Windows XP x64 Professional is 64-bit x86 and 
not Itanium.

There is also a chance that I'm misremembering things.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 21:52       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-11-01 11:02         ` Liam Proven
@ 2022-11-02  8:55         ` Michael Casadevall
  2022-11-02 15:34           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Michael Casadevall @ 2022-11-02  8:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

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I extensively researched this; there are infact copies of Pinball for
64-bit platforms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EPTfOTC4Jw&t=47s

Pinball had problems relating to 64-bit FPU precision (and this can
actually be reproduced by fiddling with FPU flags), but it did ship in
Windows XP x64 Professional.
Michael

On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 5:55 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On 10/31/22 1:21 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> > That sounds like a ton of codebases, though. I remember trying to port
> > an APL interpreter to 64-bit, and giving up; too much type puning of
> > pointers through int's.
>
> This reminds me of the stories I've heard about Microsoft's inability to
> port Pinball to /their/ 64-bit processor, the Itanium.
>
> No, not their copy of /AMD/'s 64-bit extension on Intel's x86
> architecture.  ;-)
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 21:52       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2022-11-01 11:02         ` Liam Proven
  2022-11-02  8:55         ` Michael Casadevall
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Liam Proven @ 2022-11-01 11:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Mon, 31 Oct 2022 at 22:55, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
>
> This reminds me of the stories I've heard about Microsoft's inability to
> port Pinball to /their/ 64-bit processor, the Itanium.

(?) Itanium was Intel's, not Microsoft's.

> No, not their copy of /AMD/'s 64-bit extension on Intel's x86
> architecture.  ;-)

Again, not MICROS~1: Intel.

MS is the reason Intel supports x86-64.

When it saw that Itanium was failing, just like i860, just like
iAPX-32, Intel built its own 64-bit extension to x86-32, to compete
with AMD64.

MS told Intel: look, we are already supporting *one* deadbeat
unprofitable 64-bit arch of yours (i.e. Itanic.) We're not supporting
*two*. No. You make it compatible with AMD's, because we're doing just
one 64-bit x86 and we're already working on it.

-- 
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven@gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 19:21     ` Dan Cross
@ 2022-10-31 21:52       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-11-01 11:02         ` Liam Proven
  2022-11-02  8:55         ` Michael Casadevall
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2022-10-31 21:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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On 10/31/22 1:21 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> That sounds like a ton of codebases, though. I remember trying to port 
> an APL interpreter to 64-bit, and giving up; too much type puning of 
> pointers through int's.

This reminds me of the stories I've heard about Microsoft's inability to 
port Pinball to /their/ 64-bit processor, the Itanium.

No, not their copy of /AMD/'s 64-bit extension on Intel's x86 
architecture.  ;-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 19:26     ` Larry McVoy
@ 2022-10-31 19:59       ` Ronald Natalie
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Ronald Natalie @ 2022-10-31 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

My favorite SunView story was the day I was working in the Pentagon (I 
was ron@hq.af.mil for a while).    One of the Sun workstations had a 
Sunview screen lock running and the guy I was visiting was on the phone. 
    I told him I’d just unlock the thing myself.    I promptly set forth 
to do so and got it open.    He quickly said, “I have to hang up and go 
check on something,” and came over and asked how I’d done that.

The screen lock was just a very large window forced to the top of 
everything on the screen.   If you hit the hot key to iconify it, you 
had a fraction of a second to interact before it reasserted itself.   So 
you keep hitting iconify and maybe getting a letter or two typed into 
one of the one terminal windows at a time.   You run ps, find the pid of 
the screen lock process, and kill it.

-Ron


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 19:17   ` Jon Steinhart
  2022-10-31 19:21     ` Dan Cross
@ 2022-10-31 19:26     ` Larry McVoy
  2022-10-31 19:59       ` Ronald Natalie
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-10-31 19:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jon Steinhart; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 12:17:59PM -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Larry McVoy writes:
> > Sunview was a toolkit - a really nice one in my opinion, every api had
> > a set of defaults and a key, so you could call sv_whatever(SV_DONE)
> > and did whatever with the default values.  But you could override the
> > defaults like so sv_whatever(SV_SOMEKEY, some_value, SV_DONE).  It
> > kept the system from being very verbose.
> >
> > People like Sunview's api enough that there was an Xview toolkit which
> > was Sunview ported to X10/X11.
> 
> Yeah, but it had its own issues.  I did an emergency late night and weekend
> consulting contract with Sun because Xview kept crashing.  Turns out that
> the code had some very suspect pointer dereferencing that worked until the
> SPARC processors came along and barfed at unaligned accesses.

Oh yeah, been there, fixed that.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 19:17   ` Jon Steinhart
@ 2022-10-31 19:21     ` Dan Cross
  2022-10-31 21:52       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2022-10-31 19:26     ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2022-10-31 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jon Steinhart; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 3:18 PM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
> Larry McVoy writes:
> > Sunview was a toolkit - a really nice one in my opinion, every api had
> > a set of defaults and a key, so you could call sv_whatever(SV_DONE)
> > and did whatever with the default values.  But you could override the
> > defaults like so sv_whatever(SV_SOMEKEY, some_value, SV_DONE).  It
> > kept the system from being very verbose.
> >
> > People like Sunview's api enough that there was an Xview toolkit which
> > was Sunview ported to X10/X11.
>
> Yeah, but it had its own issues.  I did an emergency late night and weekend
> consulting contract with Sun because Xview kept crashing.  Turns out that
> the code had some very suspect pointer dereferencing that worked until the
> SPARC processors came along and barfed at unaligned accesses.

That sounds like a ton of codebases, though. I remember trying to port an
APL interpreter to 64-bit, and giving up; too much type puning of pointers
through int's.

        - Dan C.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 19:14 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy
@ 2022-10-31 19:17   ` Jon Steinhart
  2022-10-31 19:21     ` Dan Cross
  2022-10-31 19:26     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jon Steinhart @ 2022-10-31 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Larry McVoy writes:
> Sunview was a toolkit - a really nice one in my opinion, every api had
> a set of defaults and a key, so you could call sv_whatever(SV_DONE)
> and did whatever with the default values.  But you could override the
> defaults like so sv_whatever(SV_SOMEKEY, some_value, SV_DONE).  It
> kept the system from being very verbose.
>
> People like Sunview's api enough that there was an Xview toolkit which
> was Sunview ported to X10/X11.

Yeah, but it had its own issues.  I did an emergency late night and weekend
consulting contract with Sun because Xview kept crashing.  Turns out that
the code had some very suspect pointer dereferencing that worked until the
SPARC processors came along and barfed at unaligned accesses.

Jon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS
  2022-10-31 18:21 [TUHS] " Kevin Bowling
@ 2022-10-31 19:14 ` Larry McVoy
  2022-10-31 19:17   ` Jon Steinhart
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-10-31 19:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kevin Bowling; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Sunview was a toolkit - a really nice one in my opinion, every api had
a set of defaults and a key, so you could call sv_whatever(SV_DONE)
and did whatever with the default values.  But you could override the
defaults like so sv_whatever(SV_SOMEKEY, some_value, SV_DONE).  It
kept the system from being very verbose.

People like Sunview's api enough that there was an Xview toolkit which
was Sunview ported to X10/X11.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2022 at 11:21:40AM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> Cameron Kaiser has written up a nice survey on some windowing systems
> that can run under OS/MP or SunOS
> https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/10/if-one-guis-not-enough-for-your-sparc.html

-- 
---
Larry McVoy           Retired to fishing          http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-11-05 11:23 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-10-31 19:33 [TUHS] Re: Four windowing systems on SunOS Nelson H. F. Beebe
2022-11-01  3:25 ` Tomasz Rola
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-10-31 18:21 [TUHS] " Kevin Bowling
2022-10-31 19:14 ` [TUHS] " Larry McVoy
2022-10-31 19:17   ` Jon Steinhart
2022-10-31 19:21     ` Dan Cross
2022-10-31 21:52       ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-11-01 11:02         ` Liam Proven
2022-11-02  8:55         ` Michael Casadevall
2022-11-02 15:34           ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2022-11-02 15:44             ` Michael Kjörling
2022-11-05 10:38             ` Michael Casadevall
2022-11-05 11:21               ` Liam Proven
2022-10-31 19:26     ` Larry McVoy
2022-10-31 19:59       ` Ronald Natalie

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