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* [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives
@ 2021-02-08 18:11 Will Senn
  2021-02-08 18:21 ` Larry McVoy
                   ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2021-02-08 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

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All,

I was introduced to Unix in the mid 1990's through my wife's VMS account 
at UT Arlington, where they had a portal to the WWW. I was able to 
download Slackware with the 0.9 kernel on 11 floppies including X11. I 
installed this on my system at the time - either a DEC Rainbow 100B? or 
a handme down generic PC. A few years later at Western Illinois 
University - they had some Sun Workstations there and I loved working 
with them. It would be several years later, though, that I would 
actually use unix in a work setting - 1998. I don't even remember what 
brand of unix, but I think it was again, sun, though no gui, so not as 
much love. Still, I was able to use rcs and and when my Windows bound 
buddies lost a week's work because of some snafu with their backups, I 
didn't lose anything - jackflash was the name of the server - good 
memories :). However, after this it was all DOS and Windows until, 2005.

I'd been eyeing Macs for some time. I like the visual aesthetics and 
obvious design considerations. But, in 2005, I finally had a bonus big 
enough to actually buy one. I bought a G5 24" iMac and fell in love with 
Mac. Next, it was a 15" G4 Powerbook. I loved those Macs until Intel 
came around and then it was game over, no more PC's in my life (not 
really, but emotionally, this was how I felt). With Mac going intel, I 
could dual boot into Windows, Triple boot into Linux, and Quadruple boot 
into FreeBSD, and I could ditch Fink and finally manage my unix tools 
properly (arguable, I know) with Homebrew or MacPorts (lately, I've gone 
back to MacPorts due to Homebrew's lack of support for older OS 
versions, and for MacPorts seeming rationality).

Anyhow, I have thoroughly enjoyed the Mac ride, but with Catalina, the 
ride got really bumpy (too much phone home, no more 32 bit programs and 
since Adobe Acrobat X, which I own, outright, isn't 64 bit, among other 
apps, this just in not an option for me), and with Big Sur, it's gotten 
worse, potholes, sinkholes, and suchlike, and the interface is downright 
patronizing (remember Microsoft Bob?). So, here I am, Mr. 
Run-Any-Cutting-Edge-OS anytime guy, hanging on tooth and nail to Mac OS 
Mojave where I still have a modicum of control over my environment.

My thought for the day and question for the group is... It seems that 
the options for a free operating system (free as in freedom) are 
becoming ever more limited - Microsoft, this week, announced that their 
Edge update will remove Edge Legacy and IE while doing the update - 
nuts; Mac's desktop is turning into IOS - ew, ick; and Linux is wild 
west meets dictatorship and major corporations are moving in to set 
their direction (Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, etc.). FreeBSD we've beat to 
death over the last couple of weeks, so I'll leave it out of the mix for 
now. What in our unix past speaks to the current circumstance and what 
do those of you who lived those events see as possibilities for the next 
revolution - and, will unix be part of it?

And a bonus question, why, oh why, can't we have a contained kernel that 
provides minimal functionality (dare I say microkernel), that is 
securable, and layers above it that other stuff (everything else) can 
run on with auditing and suchlike for traceability?






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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives
@ 2021-02-09  3:58 M Douglas McIlroy
  2021-02-09  4:07 ` Adam Thornton
                   ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: M Douglas McIlroy @ 2021-02-09  3:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

> Do they *really* want something which is just V7 Unix, with nothing else?
> No TCP/IP, no hot-plug USB support?  No web browsing?

> Oh, you wanted more than that?  Feature bloat!  Feature bloat!
> Feature bloat!   Shame!  Shame!   Shame!

% ls /usr/share/man/man2|wc
    495     495    7230
% ls /bin|wc
   2809    2809   30468

How many of roughly 500 system calls (to say nothing of uncounted
ioctl's) do you think are necessary for writing those few crucial
capabilities that distinguish Linux from v7? There is
undeniably bloat, but only a sliver of it contributes to the
distinctive utility of today's systems.

Or consider this. Unix grew by about 39 system calls in its first
decade, but an average of 40
per decade ever since. Is this accelerated growth more symptomatic of
maturity or of cancer?

Doug

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives
@ 2021-02-09  8:30 Bakul Shah
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2021-02-09  8:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Gilmore; +Cc: TUHS main list

$ k-2.9t
K 2.9t 2001-02-14 Copyright (C) 1993-2001 Kx Systems
Evaluation. Not for commercial use.
\ for help. \\ to exit.

This is a *linux* x86 binary from almost exactly 20 years ago running on FreeBSD built from last Wednesday’s sources.

$ uname -rom
FreeBSD 13.0-ALPHA3 amd64

Generally compatibility support for previous versions of FreeBSDs has been decent when I have tried. Though the future for x86 support doesn’t look bright.

> On Feb 8, 2021, at 10:56 PM, John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:
> 
> (I'm not up on what the BSD releases are doing.)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives
@ 2021-02-09 12:22 M Douglas McIlroy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 50+ messages in thread
From: M Douglas McIlroy @ 2021-02-09 12:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

> Or consider this. Unix grew by about 39 system calls in its first
> decade, but an average of 40
> > per decade ever since. Is this accelerated growth more symptomatic of
> maturity or of cancer?

Looks like I need a typing tutor. 39 should be 30. And a math tutor, too. 40
should be 100.

Doug

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 50+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-02-25 22:46 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 50+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-02-08 18:11 [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives Will Senn
2021-02-08 18:21 ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-08 18:32   ` Justin Coffey
2021-02-08 18:39     ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-09  1:59     ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-02-12 13:48     ` Angel M Alganza
2021-02-08 18:42 ` Henry Bent
2021-02-09  6:55   ` John Gilmore
2021-02-09  7:05     ` Michael Huff
2021-02-16 22:55       ` Greg A. Woods
2021-02-09  7:17     ` Will Senn
2021-02-09 19:02     ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-02-10  1:34       ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-09 22:59     ` Wesley Parish
2021-02-08 18:43 ` Dan Stromberg
2021-02-12 13:39   ` Angel M Alganza
2021-02-08 18:45 ` Thomas Paulsen
2021-02-25 22:45   ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-08 20:07 ` Al Kossow
2021-02-09  5:10 ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-02-09  7:42   ` [TUHS] QNX John Gilmore
2021-02-09 11:03     ` Robert Brockway
2021-02-09 18:24       ` Nemo Nusquam
2021-02-09 20:18         ` Jose R Valverde via TUHS
2021-02-09 14:05     ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-09  3:58 [TUHS] Macs and future unix derivatives M Douglas McIlroy
2021-02-09  4:07 ` Adam Thornton
2021-02-09  4:13 ` Will Senn
2021-02-09  5:21 ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-02-09  5:29 ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-02-09  6:37   ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-02-09 16:13     ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-02-09 17:31       ` John Cowan
2021-02-09 19:06         ` Chet Ramey
2021-02-10  2:31       ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-02-09 19:00   ` Jon Steinhart
2021-02-10  1:41     ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-10  1:52       ` George Michaelson
2021-02-10  2:24         ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-10  2:44           ` Dan Cross
2021-02-10  3:10             ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-10 20:03             ` Kevin Bowling
2021-02-10  2:57         ` Warner Losh
2021-02-10  2:56       ` Warner Losh
2021-02-10  3:02         ` Larry McVoy
2021-02-10  3:53       ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-02-09 11:34 ` Thomas Paulsen
2021-02-09 18:29 ` Nemo Nusquam
2021-02-09  8:30 Bakul Shah
2021-02-09 12:22 M Douglas McIlroy

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