From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 32580 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2021 16:24:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Jul 2021 16:24:48 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7EE589CA5C; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 02:24:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A699C9F2; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 02:23:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BB9709C9F2; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 02:23:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3AD79C9F0 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2021 02:23:56 +1000 (AEST) Received: from cwcc.thunk.org (pool-72-74-133-215.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [72.74.133.215]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as tytso@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 166GNqbL008660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 6 Jul 2021 12:23:53 -0400 Received: by cwcc.thunk.org (Postfix, from userid 15806) id A7F2415C3CC6; Tue, 6 Jul 2021 12:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 12:23:52 -0400 From: "Theodore Ts'o" To: Clem Cole Message-ID: References: <06737C14-1122-4832-BCAA-A37B242F69E4@me.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Tue, Jul 06, 2021 at 09:30:31AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > The basic idea of the original Unix was that was small and simple and in > Dennis' words, 'ran on modest hardware.' The designers of UNIX also did > not try to solve any one particular problem but offered a set of tools for > a >>programmer<< take upon her/himself to do so. > > The issue is that the target >>user<< of UNIX had devolved from that of a > 'programmer' but rather the elusive 'end user' and her/his > view/requirements tend to be "solve my problem now -- I don't care how - > just do it I don't want to think about it - make it go away." So over > time, we hid a lot of the simplicity in features that were built on > features (often warts) that were built on other features (often other > warts). I'd go even farther than that. Hardware is no longer as modest, or as simple. And even if the target user is still the "programmer" it may not be the case that worked well wtih the hardware and the problems of 50+ years ago is in fact that best answer today. Including, for example, the claim that everything should be represented in terms of a byte stream and/or a file. I'll refer people to the former FreeBSD core team member and currrent FreeBSD developer, Benno Rice's presentation from linux.conf.au 2020, "What UNIX Cost Us": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-IWMbJXoLM > I was commenting on the OPs post of the paper picking on UNIX, the UNIX > Shell, and where we are today *vs.* 50+ years ago. My other point is the > authors need to get over themselves and recognize that* they are not making > a really new argument*. Folks were not too happy with many of the BSD > 'features' either, but now those same features (like head(1) or BSD sockets(3)) > are considered SOP for nay new UNIX and you have to have them - even if > there are other if not 'better' ways of doing the same thing. And if the Unix patriaches were perhaps mistaken about how useful "head" might be and whether or not it should have been considered verboten, perhaps there is something to the claim that extreme simplicity and forcing everything to implement in terms of the smallest, simplest operations, might not make sense. After all, taken to extreme, if simplicity is the only good, then instead of Intel CPU's, or PDP-11's, maybe we should be programming everything in terms of a Turing Computer --- after all, "small is beautiful" and even a PDP-11 is unnecessary complexity. :-) Or maybe not. One of Benno's claims is even the Unix philosophy, when taken to extremes, can be as much of an ideology as say, Fundamentalist Christianity. My Episcopalean roots may be showing, but the words of Scripture (or the writings of the Unix Patriarchs) is not the only source of truth; and Tradition by itself is also not enough; we also need to apply our own Reason and Experience. - Ted