From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CDB298AC for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 13:32:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47679429AC; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 21:32:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mx1.dyne.org (mx1.dyne.org [65.109.67.92]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE4BC436A4 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 2024 21:32:06 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=freaknet.org; s=mail; t=1718364724; bh=lYsa0wUh6DLkGECNoECK/MAqRqLbCkgPb7PoEf1ni3U=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=c8XXINFItZ91LziORKbiD9SZbF7IWCp4TrHPkLzZIGsDor2gGVhF0bWYBYTd/dUZx mu+x3b8NlDXKK1DncsT38OPlsPIGWxV9VSiu7ghnA3+39CCctW8jay1b2B8jbvJsCN 7XcCZ6F06QqYEvyIulj9bc/PLljqlkuUzKFzbIVM= Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: katolaz@freaknet.org) with ESMTPSA id B0B1575213E Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:31:57 +0000 From: Vincenzo Nicosia To: The Unix Heritage Society Message-ID: References: <73819d1a-395a-4b74-a20c-0123fbed56bd@technologists.com> <4f7a96cc-2d96-4547-952c-b414a773b62a@app.fastmail.com> <87cyokpdvy.fsf@gmail.com> <20240614005902.GD28495@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20240614005902.GD28495@mcvoy.com> Message-ID-Hash: WUG6QK3QLZYXWW3FRCW44JYF5OVM54BA X-Message-ID-Hash: WUG6QK3QLZYXWW3FRCW44JYF5OVM54BA X-MailFrom: katolaz@freaknet.org X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' ??? The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Thu, Jun 13, 2024 at 05:59:02PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > This is all well and good but what I, and I suspect other boomers like me, > are looking for, is something like Ubuntu without systemd. I'm a xubuntu > guy (Ubuntu with a lighter weight desktop), but whatever. Ubuntu is fine, > everything works there. > > So is there an "Everything just works" distro without systemd? A guy can > hope but I suspect not. TL;DR: Devuan (https://devuan.org) works more or less fine as a daily drive, both as a desktop and on servers, and it gives choice of sysvinit, runit, openrc, and lately also s6 I believe (but I haven't tried it). If you need something that "kinda works" without systemd, well, Devuan is still "kinda usable", and possibly one of the best options around. Personal rant follows. You are not expected to read this ;P Linux is probably broken beyond repair now, and I am saying that with a heavy heart, having used exlusively Linux and all the other *BSD in the last 26 years, and having advocated its adoption strongly, in different environments. In many ways, Linux is not unix, not any more, to any sensible measure, and since a good while ago. These days Linux can only provide a somehow-lightly-unixy-flavoured system that "kinda works", provided that you do things as the distro decided, and do not look under the hood, ever. I personally believe Linux was at its top around 10-12 years ago, even in terms of how well everything worked in it and how easy it still was to do things your own way, if you wanted to do so. It was still simple enough, yet it provided a full-featured computing experience, from desktops to high-end servers. Nowadays if you decide to use Linux you must accept that far too many things "do happen" to your computer, and neither you nor anybody else knows why they do, or why they shouldn't, or how to alter their behavious or avoid them altogether. There is so much complexity everywhere that there is almost no space left for KISS, anywhere. Linux has eaten itself alive plus a whole bunch of additional bloat, many times, recursively. I have already moved all the servers away of Linux in the last 6-7 years, and I am currently in the last phase of moving my desktops away from it as well. It's a sad farewell, but a necessary one. You can't be totally fed up and keep carrying on for long, can you? :) My2Cents Enzo --