From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09011226FE for ; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:15:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0304043C39; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 06:15:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from osgiliath.yauz.de (osgiliath.yauz.de [178.63.8.198]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CC1443C36 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 06:15:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: by osgiliath.yauz.de (Postfix, from userid 10) id 33617800F2D; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:15:04 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=thangorodrim.ch; s=mail; t=1718914504; bh=x4Kv/7uvr/NUQJBkMT+8CHZzHpIQWVBL0BgOvW/q6t0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=tun/8ZjxN1ye8iJ/crvmw8OGa1ziI1QQG+05I4rByDxTS09TDFhDfPq0QxvnEYTHe KEdmn6ts36Ca8j5NiHExOeyX5WZqMqlvC65MkdTMk+I4m5H0uoCcHrBzuNrSuw9ZPe 3FGzuv9TZwzH5jdsW7BIr5LX4R8+QyK2ZuR/97z+kpDyYnmed+iyYqCWsJQkHFz7F3 09qc6A9KKNtrg8tjwBRJMQsqrDUq5BrTd68RN55tEHE68BevU4lDPybhca9vNm4tlg PVmceJGxskbv7HDd8MVCWkXsM6grva8oRahfyOfGRJKYiO1AQMvXefShLjp7qiCj/D A24O3ZXYWAJbA== Received: from mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de (mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de [192.168.42.1]) by frodo.angband.thangorodrim.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2258638003F; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:14:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de (Postfix, from userid 1069) id 0E3B71C00AB; Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:14:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2024 22:14:45 +0200 From: Alexander Schreiber To: Larry McVoy Message-ID: References: <87msnl4ew0.fsf@gmail.com> <87iky84c23.fsf@gmail.com> <20240617012531.GE12821@mcvoy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20240617012531.GE12821@mcvoy.com> X-URL: http://www.thangorodrim.ch/ X-Public-Key-Fingerprint: AC78 B3A4 583B 3669 0D7A 154E CA70 DC98 C209 0A62 X-PGP-KeyId: C2090A62 X-message-flag: Please send plain text messages only. Thank you. X-Cthulhu: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn X-bible-quote: Proverbs 1:25-28 X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Message-ID-Hash: 4PF4DEFP6VIJHYT76AUCOMU7UKCRCUCW X-Message-ID-Hash: 4PF4DEFP6VIJHYT76AUCOMU7UKCRCUCW X-MailFrom: als@thangorodrim.ch X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Alexis , The Unix Heritage Society mailing list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' The Register List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:25:31PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:01:40AM +1000, Alexis wrote: > > > > The issue isn't about learning shell scripting _per se_. It's about the > > extent to which _volunteers_ have to go beyond the _basics_ of shell > > scripting to learn about the _complexities_ and _subtle issues_ involved in > > using it to provide _robust_ service management. Including learning, for > > example, that certain functionality one takes for granted in a given shell > > isn't actually POSIX, and can't be assumed to be present in the shell one is > > working with (not to mention that POSIX-compatibility might need to be > > actively enabled, as in the case of e.g. ksh, via POSIXLY_CORRECT). > > This is sort of off topic but maybe relevant. > > When I was running my company, my engineers joked that if it were invented > after 1980 I wouldn't let them use it. Which wasn't true, we used mmap(). > > But the underlying sentiment sort of was true. Even though they were > all used to bash, I tried very hard to not use bash specific stuff. > And it paid off, in our hey day, we supported SCO, AIX, HPUX, SunOS, > Solaris, Tru64, Linux on every architecture from tin to IBM mainframes, > Windows, Macos on PPC and x86, etc. And probably a bunch of other > platforms I've forgotten. > > *Every* time they used some bash-ism, it bit us in the ass. I kept > telling them "our build environment is not our deployment environment". > We had a bunch of /bin/sh stuff that we shipped so we had to go for > the common denominator. My latest brush with someone using bash in the wrong place was when I saw the configure scripts for GlusterFS break on NetBSD. Because someone had used bash 4 syntax in the configure scripts ... presumably on a Linux variant where /bin/sh == /bin/bash. While that was easy to fix (and the PR accepted and patched in) I shouldn't have had to fix that in the first place ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison