From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f4502354 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:06:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 617BF9480C; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:06:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 093B294790; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:05:44 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=yaccman.com header.i=@yaccman.com header.b="dIFc8pQD"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3759F94790; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:05:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: from baboon.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (baboon.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.8]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 860A893D35 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:05:40 +1000 (AEST) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|scj@yaccman.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A878B1408B0; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:05:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-91-237.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.91.237]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 106D6142BF4; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:05:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|scj@yaccman.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com ([TEMPUNAVAIL]. [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 0.0.0.0:2500 (trex/5.17.5); Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:05:39 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Junk X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|scj@yaccman.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Fearful-Obese: 58e9a4df11c29b3b_1568235939495_1270117422 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1568235939495:516851853 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1568235939495 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77D67801CC; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:05:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=yaccman.com; h=message-id :from:to:cc:in-reply-to:subject:date:content-type:mime-version; s=yaccman.com; bh=AAzqH10RvClH0kxUSLLoDTpyqOs=; b=dIFc8pQDufA3Z 2xH6+PCRQfsNeVzTFOXd41mLlYxm2kJzdunmqJWxK4386MHr8pLWQpLSjVlRejJ4 iyq4Tijw2yYUwskbVDnj3PXgzRRiVC0isA1OPo7+LXeYrA4aKl+IXb4sGsjdYLPC uSvKY8ngYIAPDnvFe4aVD3mQsSDP7A= Received: from localhost (ip-66-33-200-4.dreamhost.com [66.33.200.4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: scj@yaccman.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a18.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39708801BB; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a18 From: "Steve Johnson" To: "Larry McVoy" , "Richard Salz" X-Mailer: Atmail 7.8.0.2 X-Originating-IP: 10.35.43.154 in-reply-to: <20190911185418.GA2046@mcvoy.com> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:05:34 -0700 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_b28eab96c725cc7cae8bca85ed4740e1" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-VR-OUT-STATUS: OK X-VR-OUT-SCORE: -100 X-VR-OUT-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrtdefgddufedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuggftfghnshhusghstghrihgsvgdpffftgfetoffjqffuvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhepkffhvffoihgjuffftgggsegrtderreertdejnecuhfhrohhmpedfufhtvghvvgculfhohhhnshhonhdfuceoshgtjheshigrtggtmhgrnhdrtghomheqnecukfhppeeiiedrfeefrddvtddtrdegpddutddrfeehrdegfedrudehgeenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhppdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpihhnvghtpeeiiedrfeefrddvtddtrdegpdhrvghtuhhrnhdqphgrthhhpedfufhtvghvvgculfhohhhnshhonhdfuceoshgtjheshigrtggtmhgrnhdrtghomheqpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepshgtjheshigrtggtmhgrnhdrtghomhdpnhhrtghpthhtohepthhuhhhssehtuhhhshdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt Subject: Re: [TUHS] PWB vs Unix/TS X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --=_b28eab96c725cc7cae8bca85ed4740e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0AI tried very hard to get the front end of pcc released to open source= =0A(we didn't call it then) because after K&R was printed, everyone and= =0Atheir cat started writing C compilers based on the appendix.=C2=A0 I= had=0Astrong management support for this move, but the lawyers were sti= ll in=0Atheir "lets study this for 10 years and then it will be clear wh= at we=0Ashould have done" mode.=C2=A0 So we ended up with far pointers a= nd ten=0Ayears of standards committee agony.=C2=A0 It's so obvious to me= now, as=0Athen, that such specs should be executable (although not nece= ssarily=0Aproduct-quality in speed or things like error messages).=C2=A0= But it's=0Aalso obvious that the desire to compete by adding glitter an= d icing=0Aruns strong nontheless.=0A=0ASteve=0A=0A----- Original Message= -----=0AFrom: "Larry McVoy" =0ATo:"Richard Salz" =0ACc:"The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" =0ASe= nt:Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:54:18 -0700=0ASubject:Re: [TUHS] PWB vs Unix/TS= =0A=0A On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 02:18:08PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:=0A= > >=0A > > It would have been=0A > > much better if Sun had licensed th= eir source base to AT&T and=0Athen=0A > > AT&T could have leveraged the= industry standard.=0A > =0A > =0A > Interesting to speculate if that wo= uld have sped up the creation of=0AOSF or=0A > delayed/prevented it. I t= hink the former.=0A=0A You're probably right but it wouldn't have matter= ed. SunOS was very=0Apopular=0A and had a good VM system with a working= mmap. Once it became official=0A AT&T source everyone would have moved= to it over time.=0A=0A Sort of obvious in retrospect. Nobody, that I kn= ow of, considered it=0Aat=0A the time. I proposed open sourcing it.=0A= =0A --=_b28eab96c725cc7cae8bca85ed4740e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I tried very hard to get the front end of pcc released to o= pen source (we didn't call it then) because after K&R was printed, e= veryone and their cat started writing C compilers based on the appendix.= =C2=A0 I had strong management support for this move, but the lawyers we= re still in their "lets study this for 10 years and then it will be clea= r what we should have done" mode.=C2=A0 So we ended up with far pointers= and ten years of standards committee agony.=C2=A0 It's so obvious to me= now, as then, that such specs should be executable (although not necess= arily product-quality in speed or things like error messages).=C2=A0 But= it's also obvious that the desire to compete by adding glitter and icin= g runs strong nontheless.

Steve


----- Original Message -----
=
From:
"Larry McVoy" <lm@mcvoy.com>

= To:
"Richard Salz" <rich.salz@gmail.com>
Cc:"The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Sent:
Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:54:18= -0700
Subject:
Re: [TUHS] PWB vs Unix/TS

=0AOn Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 02:18:08PM -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
=0A= > >
=0A> > It would have been
=0A> > much bett= er if Sun had licensed their source base to AT&T and then
=0A>= > AT&T could have leveraged the industry standard.
=0A> =0A>
=0A> Interesting to speculate if that would have sped u= p the creation of OSF or
=0A> delayed/prevented it. I think the f= ormer.

=0AYou're probably right but it wouldn't have mattered. Su= nOS was very popular
=0Aand had a good VM system with a working mmap.= Once it became official
=0AAT&T source everyone would have move= d to it over time.

=0ASort of obvious in retrospect. Nobody, tha= t I know of, considered it at
=0Athe time. I proposed open sourcing= it.

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