* [TUHS] Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L @ 2024-06-25 18:17 Clem Cole 2024-06-26 0:56 ` [TUHS] " Aron Insinga ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2024-06-25 18:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, simh [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1074 bytes --] https://www.geekwire.com/2024/seattles-living-computers-museum-logs-off-for-good-as-paul-allen-estate-will-auction-vintage-items/ These folks hosted the UNIX 50th Celebration and had a physical PDP-7 that was used to bring up UNIX V0 (after first getting it running on SIMH). That later was not easy because the original PDP-7s (like the one Ken had access to) did not have disk storage. BTL had paid DEC's Custom Special Systems (CSS) to splice a Burrough's disk that DEC was selling using for the 15 and later the PDP-9. It started with splicing reverse engineering that code to build a simulation of that disk into the simh, so we could ensure that UNIX ran—finally, modeling that HW with a custom microprocessor-based board with an SD card with a functional replica of a PDP-7 I/O interface on one side obeying the device registers and operations that UNIX expected to see. The LCM-L folks were incredibly gracious and generous. I am so sad to see their collection go away. In particular, I hope the PDP-7s and the CDC-6500 find new homes. Clem [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1804 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-25 18:17 [TUHS] Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L Clem Cole @ 2024-06-26 0:56 ` Aron Insinga 2024-06-26 1:29 ` Larry McVoy 2024-06-26 1:42 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L George Michaelson 2024-06-26 1:44 ` Paul Guertin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Aron Insinga @ 2024-06-26 0:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs I am not a lawyer, but as I've mentioned before, people building a collection or creating a Museum should form a non-profit organization (with a business plan to support it) to take ownership of it and keep it out of the estate, because there is no guarantee one's heirs will give a $#!^ about any of it other than for the gold that can be harvested from it. Do it straight away because you likely won't know in advance of when your time is up. And even if all you have is one or a few items (let's say, a missile guidance computer, or someone's unpublished notes from lectures) at least make sure you have a valid will to try very hard to require it to be sent someplace that can accept it, or that will appoint (a) right-thinking representative(s) to handle said item(s). Or at least make sure you've actually succeeded in educating your family on the importance of said items, and places that can accept them. As someone from the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum once said to me, "They [TCM=>CHM] were lucky to get that, we don't have one." But IMHO the LCM might be the biggest such failure of responsibility to computing history ever. Best, - Aron (a docent at The Computer Museum when it was at DEC in Marlborough) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 0:56 ` [TUHS] " Aron Insinga @ 2024-06-26 1:29 ` Larry McVoy 2024-06-26 3:34 ` [TUHS] Re: Trust stuff, " John Levine 2024-06-26 9:22 ` [TUHS] Wills. (Was: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L) Ralph Corderoy 0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2024-06-26 1:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Aron Insinga; +Cc: tuhs This is almost completely unrelated but somewhat in the "write your will/trust the right way". My dad made me trustee of their estate. OK, fine. He passed first, then my mom passed and there was a decent amount, not a lot but enough you'd notice it. 3 kids, divided equally. But I had made enough money that it seemed unfair to me to take my third when my brother, a PhD from Cornell, was busy convincing everyone that how they were going about saving the Everglades was wrong, and he was broke. I could just hear my dad saying "Larry, you are fine, Chris is not". So I gave him my third but it is a pain in the butt. You can only gift so much each year without a tax implication. The point being that none of the trust people had ever heard of, or thought of, the idea that one of the kids would be willing to give up their share. Since we're mostly old folks, maybe put something in your trust that says any kid can yield any portion to whoever they want and it is as if you wrote that into the trust/will. We did that with our trust and the lawyer had to be told 3 times. She kept saying that's not what happens, the kids argue about they should get more, nobody says they should get less. Turns out I'm the odd ball. On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 08:56:43PM -0400, Aron Insinga wrote: > I am not a lawyer, but as I've mentioned before, people building a > collection or creating a Museum should form a non-profit organization (with > a business plan to support it) to take ownership of it and keep it out of > the estate, because there is no guarantee one's heirs will give a $#!^ about > any of it other than for the gold that can be harvested from it.?? Do it > straight away because you likely won't know in advance of when your time is > up. > > And even if all you have is one or a few items (let's say, a missile > guidance computer, or someone's unpublished notes from lectures) at least > make sure you have a valid will to try very hard to require it to be sent > someplace that can accept it, or that will appoint (a) right-thinking > representative(s) to handle said item(s). > > Or at least make sure you've actually succeeded in educating your family on > the importance of said items, and places that can accept them. > > As someone from the Smithsonian Air & Space Museum once said to me, "They > [TCM=>CHM] were lucky to get that, we don't have one." > > But IMHO the LCM might be the biggest such failure of responsibility to > computing history ever. > > Best, > > - Aron (a docent at The Computer Museum when it was at DEC in Marlborough) > -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Trust stuff, Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 1:29 ` Larry McVoy @ 2024-06-26 3:34 ` John Levine 2024-06-26 9:22 ` [TUHS] Wills. (Was: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L) Ralph Corderoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: John Levine @ 2024-06-26 3:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs According to Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com>: >This is almost completely unrelated but somewhat in the "write your >will/trust the right way". ... >So I gave him my third but it is a pain in the butt. You can only >gift so much each year without a tax implication. Well, in principle, but unless you expect your estate to be over $10 million, you generally don't have to pay any gift tax. (If you do expect your estate to be over $10M, you need a real tax expert, not advice from random mailing lists. >The point being that none of the trust people had ever heard of, or >thought of, the idea that one of the kids would be willing to give >up their share. That's surprising. Every testamentary trust I've been involved with had language that let the heirs disclaim all or part of their share. I thought it was boilerplate. You are quite right that it's an important thing to include. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Wills. (Was: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L) 2024-06-26 1:29 ` Larry McVoy 2024-06-26 3:34 ` [TUHS] Re: Trust stuff, " John Levine @ 2024-06-26 9:22 ` Ralph Corderoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Ralph Corderoy @ 2024-06-26 9:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Hi, Larry wrote: > So I gave him my third but it is a pain in the butt. You can only > gift so much each year without a tax implication. AIUI, in the UK, a ‘deed of variation’ can alter the will's wishes as long as all beneficiaries sign. > any kid can yield any portion to whoever they want and it is as if you > wrote that into the trust/will. That's open to sibling A pressuring B to yield without C-F knowing until too late. Whereas if A-F have to sign then some of C-F may stand up to the bully, knowing what A's like. -- Cheers, Ralph. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-25 18:17 [TUHS] Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L Clem Cole 2024-06-26 0:56 ` [TUHS] " Aron Insinga @ 2024-06-26 1:42 ` George Michaelson 2024-06-26 17:22 ` aki 2024-06-26 1:44 ` Paul Guertin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: George Michaelson @ 2024-06-26 1:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, simh I understand property on the mall is expensive, but the smithsonian has adjunct/allied/associated museums not on the mall. You would think somebody in Maynard would fund oh, I don't know.. an old Mill structure to be repurposed as a museum? Or many in Armonk? The Indy "this belongs in a museum" really needs a rider: A nationally recognized, affiliated, publicly endowable museum. Full marks to Paul Allen to keep the stuff. He did a useful thing. -G ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 1:42 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L George Michaelson @ 2024-06-26 17:22 ` aki 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: aki @ 2024-06-26 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: George Michaelson; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, simh They did, in one of DEC's buildings in Marlborough, Massachusetts: The Digital Computer Museum dba The Computer Museum. Later it moved to Boston in the same building as the Children's Museum there; space that was used by an automobile museum for a while. After the End of the Age of Minicomputers, it moved to California and eventually became the Computer History Museum. MIT Lincoln Lab took back the TX-0 and disassembled it to some extent so that it could be moved and put into storage, where it sits, in a classified facility which we mere insecure civilians can't access. A few things were on display in The Science Museum in Boston (it inherited the Massachusetts non-profit organization of TCM IIUC) but I think they've been moved to CHM too. And at least some of those giants have now passed away too. And make that an actually *endowed* museum. I've been reminded that Allen also created a Science Fiction Museum and a Rock & Roll Museum. The SF has been merged into the R&R because that's the one that will probably sell enough tickets to keep paying the bills and the staff. - Aron On 2024-06-25 20:42, George Michaelson wrote: ... > You would think somebody in Maynard would fund oh, I don't know.. an > old Mill structure to be repurposed as a museum? Or many in Armonk? > > The Indy "this belongs in a museum" really needs a rider: A nationally > recognized, affiliated, publicly endowable museum. ... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-25 18:17 [TUHS] Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L Clem Cole 2024-06-26 0:56 ` [TUHS] " Aron Insinga 2024-06-26 1:42 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L George Michaelson @ 2024-06-26 1:44 ` Paul Guertin 2024-06-26 1:46 ` Dan Cross 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Paul Guertin @ 2024-06-26 1:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs It is sad that a billionaire would create a museum but then instruct his heirs to dismantle it upon his death, rather than set up some kind of permanent funding for it. Paul Guertin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 1:44 ` Paul Guertin @ 2024-06-26 1:46 ` Dan Cross 2024-06-26 2:46 ` Paul Guertin 2024-06-26 5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff 0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2024-06-26 1:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Guertin; +Cc: tuhs On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 9:44 PM Paul Guertin <paul@guertin.net> wrote: > It is sad that a billionaire would create a museum but > then instruct his heirs to dismantle it upon his death, > rather than set up some kind of permanent funding > for it. That's not at all what happened; please, let's not write such things that suggest that it is. Allen was a man dying of cancer. LCM+L was important to him, but he neglected to leave explicit instructions to set up an endowment for it; that's unfortunate, but it was an oversight: he had other concerns. I've talked to several of the players, and no one, not once, has suggested that he "instructed his heirs to dismantle it upon his death." - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 1:46 ` Dan Cross @ 2024-06-26 2:46 ` Paul Guertin 2024-06-26 5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Paul Guertin @ 2024-06-26 2:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross, tuhs Dixit Dan Cross (2024-06-25 21:46): > On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 9:44 PM Paul Guertin <paul@guertin.net> wrote: >> It is sad that a billionaire would create a museum but >> then instruct his heirs to dismantle it upon his death, > > That's not at all what happened; please, let's not write such things > that suggest that it is. Thank you for the correction. I read the article too quickly, and misinterpreted the sentence > The closure came as the estate began to deal with a number of properties that no longer had a billionaire benefactor to help keep the doors open, and in line with what the estate says was Allen’s desire to sell his assets after his passing. It is the estate's position that Allen wanted the museum's assets to be sold, and not Allen's stated wishes. Paul Guertin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 1:46 ` Dan Cross 2024-06-26 2:46 ` Paul Guertin @ 2024-06-26 5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff 2024-06-26 14:30 ` [TUHS] Planning for the future was " Will Senn 2024-06-26 16:56 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L aki 1 sibling, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2024-06-26 5:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: tuhs Dan Cross wrote: > Allen was a man dying of cancer. LCM+L was important to him, but he > neglected to leave explicit instructions to set up an endowment for > it; that's unfortunate, but it was an oversight: he had other > concerns. The oversight would be that it was done too late. Such paperwork was in progress, but it was not completed before his death. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Planning for the future was Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff @ 2024-06-26 14:30 ` Will Senn 2024-06-26 15:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow 2024-06-26 21:57 ` [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future Warren Toomey via TUHS 2024-06-26 16:56 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L aki 1 sibling, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2024-06-26 14:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1859 bytes --] On 6/26/24 12:36 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Dan Cross wrote: >> Allen was a man dying of cancer. LCM+L was important to him, but he >> neglected to leave explicit instructions to set up an endowment for >> it; that's unfortunate, but it was an oversight: he had other >> concerns. > The oversight would be that it was done too late. Such paperwork was in > progress, but it was not completed before his death. There's a lesson in here somewhere. I was always skeptical of the LCM-L's approach to curation, not that I had any specific reason for it other than finding it difficult to access some of the digital materials. However, I would hope that we would be more careful with how we contribute materials going forward. It's important that when you donate an item for posterity, that it be made accessible and available to that posterity... in perpetuity. This isn't a simple endeavor, it takes planning... as in ahead of time, beforehand, in advance of :). Of course that's easy to say, now, in this particular case. But, now that we know one way things can go awry, we should be more careful going forward. Which brings me to my topic - how is TUHS set up for the future? and a corollary what's the deal with Bitsavers (I see mirrors including content on Archive.org)? Of late, I've seen quite a few "reliable" retro sites going off the air and more and more, I'm relying on Archive.org's wayback machine to locate the materials on those sites. To my mind this is a problem in that Archive used to make a lot more digitial content available at higher resolution, without gatekeeping, but now, not so much... as in, practically anything is freely accessible. Is TUHS set up in such a way as to weather the sands of time or do we need to do something to ensure its sustainability (similarly bitsavers/gunkies/beebe's bib/etc). Will [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2609 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future was Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 14:30 ` [TUHS] Planning for the future was " Will Senn @ 2024-06-26 15:18 ` Al Kossow 2024-06-26 21:57 ` [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future Warren Toomey via TUHS 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Al Kossow @ 2024-06-26 15:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 6/26/24 7:30 AM, Will Senn wrote: > what's the deal with Bitsavers (I see mirrors including > content on Archive.org)? They throw things into the Wayback Machine and mangle the filenames and destroy the directory heirarchy somewhere else. I'm disappointed that the major search engines seem to return what is at IA first. It isn't even necessarily the most recent version of a file. The Computer History Museum has committed to being a mirror site http://bitsavers.computerhistory.org The intention in some day to integrate it with the "Open CHM" project, but the infrastructure for that is still a work in progress. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future 2024-06-26 14:30 ` [TUHS] Planning for the future was " Will Senn 2024-06-26 15:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow @ 2024-06-26 21:57 ` Warren Toomey via TUHS 2024-06-30 13:05 ` Will Senn 1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Warren Toomey via TUHS @ 2024-06-26 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1524 bytes --] On 27/6/24 00:30, Will Senn wrote: > > Which brings me to my topic - how is TUHS set up for the future? > Is TUHS set up in such a way as to weather the sands of time or do we > need to do something to ensure its sustainability (similarly > bitsavers/gunkies/beebe's bib/etc). > Good question. There isn't a real succession plan. We do have a handful of people behind the scenes (the TUHS team) who have access to the server and who could take over the care and feeding if required. The regular operations are mostly documented but, as always, could be improved upon. The "assets" are nearly all publicly available. The Unix archive can be easily copied: see the end of https://wiki.tuhs.org/doku.php?id=source:unix_archive The mailing list contents can be downloaded from here as Zip files: https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/ The actual list of people on the list isn't available, although the TUHS team could easily get a copy. The "tuhs.org" domain I have registered until May 2030. What I should probably do is to ask one of the TUHS team to volunteer to a) put their credit card up as a secondary for my cloud provider in case my card stops working and b) give them access to the cloud provider so they can make their card the primary one. I did try to float the idea of a more formalised TUHS structure a while back but there was not much enthusiasm at the time :-) Cheers, Warren P.S. And I should set up a "dead man's hand" script to tell the list if I have been 'inactive' for a few weeks. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2804 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future 2024-06-26 21:57 ` [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future Warren Toomey via TUHS @ 2024-06-30 13:05 ` Will Senn 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2024-06-30 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Warren Toomey, tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2715 bytes --] On 6/26/24 4:57 PM, Warren Toomey via TUHS wrote: > > Good question. There isn't a real succession plan. We do have a > handful of people behind the scenes (the TUHS team) who have access to > the server and who could take over the care and feeding if required. > The regular operations are mostly documented but, as always, could be > improved upon. > > The "assets" are nearly all publicly available. The Unix archive can > be easily copied: see the end of > https://wiki.tuhs.org/doku.php?id=source:unix_archive > > The mailing list contents can be downloaded from here as Zip files: > https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/ > > The actual list of people on the list isn't available, although the > TUHS team could easily get a copy. > > The "tuhs.org" domain I have registered until May 2030. > > What I should probably do is to ask one of the TUHS team to volunteer > to a) put their credit card up as a secondary for my cloud provider in > case my card stops working and b) give them access to the cloud > provider so they can make their card the primary one. > > I did try to float the idea of a more formalised TUHS structure a > while back but there was not much enthusiasm at the time :-) > > Cheers, Warren > > P.S. And I should set up a "dead man's hand" script to tell the list > if I have been 'inactive' for a few weeks. > Hi Warren, I didn't realize it was so easily mirrored. The instructions are super clear and effective. This all sounds like a good approach to providing for continuity over the long haul, even if it's not super formal. It's interesting the perspectives gathering here - for some, it's like a chat room to reminisce. For others, it's an information source. For a few, it's a living history. What may not be apparent to some of the folks who lived the history is that it is a fragile thread and those who experienced its genesis firsthand are a rapidly shrinking population. If we've seen misinformation creeping into discussions of late, it's only going to get much worse over the years. Particularly if we don't capture more of the real story and keep that alive. TUHS is a great resource for folks to turn to when they want to dig deeper into the origins of UNIX or to learn more about the motivations for early decisions that charted the course of it's descendants. The transition from research unix to commercial and open source is becoming history that fewer and fewer folks really know much about. All this to say, TUHS is more than a chat platform for reminiscing and clarifications of the record - it's a historical record of important conversations that should be preserved and protected :). Thanks, Will Thanks for the details! Will [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4371 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L 2024-06-26 5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff 2024-06-26 14:30 ` [TUHS] Planning for the future was " Will Senn @ 2024-06-26 16:56 ` aki 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: aki @ 2024-06-26 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs It's not like this was the first time he faced cancer. It's too bad he didn't take the lesson from an earlier encounter and do this decades ago. Now if only his family would take those wishes of his into account and tell the lawyers to finish the job. On 2024-06-26 00:36, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Dan Cross wrote: >> Allen was a man dying of cancer. LCM+L was important to him, but he >> neglected to leave explicit instructions to set up an endowment for >> it; that's unfortunate, but it was an oversight: he had other >> concerns. > > The oversight would be that it was done too late. Such paperwork was > in > progress, but it was not completed before his death. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2024-06-30 13:06 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 16+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2024-06-25 18:17 [TUHS] Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L Clem Cole 2024-06-26 0:56 ` [TUHS] " Aron Insinga 2024-06-26 1:29 ` Larry McVoy 2024-06-26 3:34 ` [TUHS] Re: Trust stuff, " John Levine 2024-06-26 9:22 ` [TUHS] Wills. (Was: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L) Ralph Corderoy 2024-06-26 1:42 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L George Michaelson 2024-06-26 17:22 ` aki 2024-06-26 1:44 ` Paul Guertin 2024-06-26 1:46 ` Dan Cross 2024-06-26 2:46 ` Paul Guertin 2024-06-26 5:36 ` Lars Brinkhoff 2024-06-26 14:30 ` [TUHS] Planning for the future was " Will Senn 2024-06-26 15:18 ` [TUHS] " Al Kossow 2024-06-26 21:57 ` [TUHS] Re: Planning for the future Warren Toomey via TUHS 2024-06-30 13:05 ` Will Senn 2024-06-26 16:56 ` [TUHS] Re: Sad but not unexpected news about the LCM-L aki
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