From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 29948 invoked from network); 4 Feb 2021 05:45:18 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Feb 2021 05:45:18 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9FB039C9FD; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 15:45:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF2D9C8D8; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 15:44:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CFF069C884; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 15:44:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: from nsstlmta01p.bpe.bigpond.com (nsstlmta01p.bpe.bigpond.com [203.38.21.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ECE49C0A7 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 15:43:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: from smtp.telstra.com ([10.10.24.4]) by nsstlfep01p-svc.bpe.nexus.telstra.com.au with ESMTP id <20210204054356.JYXQ8688.nsstlfep01p-svc.bpe.nexus.telstra.com.au@smtp.telstra.com> for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:43:56 +1100 X-RG-Spam: Unknown X-RazorGate-Vade: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrgeefgdekudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfupfevtfgpvffgnffuvffttedpqfgfvfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecugedttdenucenucfjughrpeffhffvufgjkfhffgggtgesthdttddttdervdenucfhrhhomhepffgrvhgvucfjohhrshhfrghllhcuoegurghvvgeshhhorhhsfhgrlhhlrdhorhhgqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekieetjeeuuefhfeeguedvudeifeevudfgvedtffekhfffjeekhfdutdetheethfenucfkphepuddutddrudeguddrudelfedrvdeffeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhephhgvlhhopegrnhgvuhhrihhnrdhhohhrshhfrghllhdrohhrghdpihhnvghtpeduuddtrddugedurdduleefrddvfeefpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepoegurghvvgeshhhorhhsfhgrlhhlrdhorhhgqedprhgtphhtthhopeeothhuhhhssehtuhhhshdrohhrgheq X-RazorGate-Vade-Verdict: clean 0 X-RazorGate-Vade-Classification: clean X-RG-VS-CLASS: clean Received: from aneurin.horsfall.org (110.141.193.233) by smtp.telstra.com (5.8.420) id 5FE6CD410AFDFA28 for tuhs@tuhs.org; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:43:56 +1100 Received: from aneurin.horsfall.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aneurin.horsfall.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id 1145huti089748 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:43:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from dave@horsfall.org) Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by aneurin.horsfall.org (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 1145htrM089745 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:43:56 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from dave@horsfall.org) X-Authentication-Warning: aneurin.horsfall.org: dave owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 16:43:55 +1100 (EST) From: Dave Horsfall To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society In-Reply-To: <20210131022500.GU4227@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: References: <202101301950.10UJoWeA456408@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20210130222854.GN4227@mcvoy.com> <20210130231119.GA33905@eureka.lemis.com> <20210131022500.GU4227@mcvoy.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) X-GPG-Public-Key: http://www.horsfall.org/gpgkey.pub X-GPG-Fingerprint: 05B4 FFBC 0218 B438 66E0 587B EF46 7357 EF5E F58B X-Home-Page: http://www.horsfall.org/ X-Witty-Saying: "chmod 666 the_mode_of_the_beast" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: Re: [TUHS] FreeBSD behind the times? (was: Favorite unix design principles?) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On Sat, 30 Jan 2021, Larry McVoy wrote: [ Usual insightful... insights ] > If you like ZFS you don't understand operating systems design. I do. Indeed... > Jeff Bonwick was a stats student at Stanford when he took my OS class, I > convinced him to come to Sun. Bill Moore worked for me. That's the two > main ZFS guys and I thought I had taught them well but they let me down. { ... ] There's no way that I'd use ZFS; lose a block in an ordinary file, well, you now have a hole (but not in the file-system sense); lose a block in a compressed system, well... Or perhaps I'm becoming conservative in my old age; I remember when I once rewrote utilities that when writing a zero block merely did a seek instead (or something like that; you had to remember to actually write out the last block). I wouldn't try it these days, as Unix file systems were simple back then. [ ... ] > Let's try it this way. Get back to me when you can show me 40 people > who have installed FreeBSD on their own, with no help. In the same > time, I can show you 40,000 people who have installed Linux on their > own, with no help. Probably 400,000. Well, I did (but without ZFS) on several boxes, with zero help. Having had SunOS experience (4.4 was the best) helped :-) I can't stand Penguin/OS; it looks too much like Windoze for my liking (and does its best to be almost-Unix-but-not-quite). -- Dave, a grey-beard