* [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? @ 2022-01-28 23:07 Will Senn 2022-01-28 23:18 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2022-01-28 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 408 bytes --] I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software Tools in Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's Pascal and Andy Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few related questions: 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? 2. What versions of "Standard Pascal" were in vogue on UNIX at the time (1981)? 3. What combinations of UNIX/Pascal were popular? Thanks, Will [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 703 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-28 23:07 [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? Will Senn @ 2022-01-28 23:18 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-28 23:31 ` Will Senn 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2022-01-28 23:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1073 bytes --] On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software Tools in > Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's Pascal and Andy > Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few related questions: > > 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? > I'm afraid I can't speak to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but I can offer what I think is a reasonable guess about the first. One of the neat things about Unix and Unix-adjacent books of that era is that very often the copyright page held some information about the production of the book itself. I just so happened to have a copy of, "Software Tools in Pascal" sitting on my desk, and it says, "This books as set in Times Roman and Courier by the authors, using a Mergenthaler Linotron 202 phototypesetter driven by a PDP-11/70 running the Unix operating system." Given the PDP-11 and the date (1981) one may reasonably conclude that it was running 7th Edition. I imagine the pascal was Joy's, from Berkeley. - Dan C. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1779 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-28 23:18 ` Dan Cross @ 2022-01-28 23:31 ` Will Senn 2022-01-29 0:03 ` Rob Pike 2022-01-29 0:40 ` Will Senn 0 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2022-01-28 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2280 bytes --] On 1/28/22 5:18 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software > Tools in Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's > Pascal and Andy Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few related > questions: > > 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? > > > I'm afraid I can't speak to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but I can > offer what I think is a reasonable guess about the first. > > One of the neat things about Unix and Unix-adjacent books of that era > is that very often the copyright page held some information about the > production of the book itself. I just so happened to have a copy of, > "Software Tools in Pascal" sitting on my desk, and it says, "This > books as set in Times Roman and Courier by the authors, using a > Mergenthaler Linotron 202 phototypesetter driven by a PDP-11/70 > running the Unix operating system." > > Given the PDP-11 and the date (1981) one may reasonably conclude that > it was running 7th Edition. I imagine the pascal was Joy's, from Berkeley. > > - Dan C. > Great hint. 20 seconds after I hit send on the original email, I came across this: http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html Where Brian Kernighan talks about the challenges they faced porting the ratfor examples into pascal. He explains that: The programs were first written in that dialect of Pascal supported by the Pascal interpreter pi provided by the University of California at Berkeley. The language is close to the nominal standard of Jensen and Wirth,(6 <http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html#lit-6>) with good diagnostics and careful run-time checking. Since then, the programs have also been run, unchanged except for new libraries of primitives, on four other systems: an interpreter from the Free University of Amsterdam (hereinafter referred to as VU, for Vrije Universiteit), a VAX version of the Berkeley system (a true compiler), a compiler purveyed by Whitesmiths, Ltd., and UCSD Pascal on a Z80. All but the last of these Pascal systems are written in C. So, you were right about it being Joy's pi. Thanks, Will [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4341 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-28 23:31 ` Will Senn @ 2022-01-29 0:03 ` Rob Pike 2022-01-29 0:40 ` Will Senn 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Rob Pike @ 2022-01-29 0:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4054 bytes --] Not really on topic for Unix, but historical and relevant to this conversation and I think not well known. In 1978 I was an exchange student working at EIR (now the Paul Scherrer Institute), using the CDC 7600 (I think that was the model) at ETH, where Wirth was a professor. EIR is about 30km from Zürich, and EIR had a remote job entry system. The computing environment was very odd, and I asked about it. Two things I learned: 1) The University had bought a CDC machine instead of an IBM one, somewhat against advice, because CDC, being a smaller company, did not have the wherewithal to translate their manuals. IBM's manuals came in German and were all but incomprehensible as they avoided the accepted terms of art known and used even by a German-speaking programmer. The CDC manuals, being in English, were easier to understand, especially when considering the nuance and precision necessary to learn the correct interpretation of the description of a computer's execution. The Swiss, being polyglots, handled English manuals just fine. 2) The operating system's I/O model was bizarre, but it was also unique. It was a version of NOS locally modified, partly (if I remember right) in support of the remote execution setup. The peculiar sequence of cards necessary to terminate the input was due to the local changes to NOS made at ETH. This was the system Pascal was created for, and a consequence of the design is the idiosyncratic way input worked in early Pascal, which made little sense to almost anyone, was seriously hard to recreate on Unix, but worked naturally if using punch cards on, and only on, the ETH 7600. -rob On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 10:32 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1/28/22 5:18 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software Tools in >> Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's Pascal and Andy >> Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few related questions: >> >> 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? >> > > I'm afraid I can't speak to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but I can offer > what I think is a reasonable guess about the first. > > One of the neat things about Unix and Unix-adjacent books of that era is > that very often the copyright page held some information about the > production of the book itself. I just so happened to have a copy of, > "Software Tools in Pascal" sitting on my desk, and it says, "This books as > set in Times Roman and Courier by the authors, using a Mergenthaler > Linotron 202 phototypesetter driven by a PDP-11/70 running the Unix > operating system." > > Given the PDP-11 and the date (1981) one may reasonably conclude that it > was running 7th Edition. I imagine the pascal was Joy's, from Berkeley. > > - Dan C. > > Great hint. 20 seconds after I hit send on the original email, I came > across this: > http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html > > Where Brian Kernighan talks about the challenges they faced porting the > ratfor examples into pascal. He explains that: > > The programs were first written in that dialect of Pascal supported by the > Pascal interpreter pi provided by the University of California at Berkeley. The > language is close to the nominal standard of Jensen and Wirth,(6 > <http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html#lit-6>) with good > diagnostics and careful run-time checking. Since then, the programs have > also been run, unchanged except for new libraries of primitives, on four > other systems: an interpreter from the Free University of Amsterdam > (hereinafter referred to as VU, for Vrije Universiteit), a VAX version of > the Berkeley system (a true compiler), a compiler purveyed by Whitesmiths, > Ltd., and UCSD Pascal on a Z80. All but the last of these Pascal systems > are written in C. > > So, you were right about it being Joy's pi. > > Thanks, > > Will > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6254 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-28 23:31 ` Will Senn 2022-01-29 0:03 ` Rob Pike @ 2022-01-29 0:40 ` Will Senn 2022-01-29 19:05 ` John Cowan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Will Senn @ 2022-01-29 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3018 bytes --] On 1/28/22 5:31 PM, Will Senn wrote: > On 1/28/22 5:18 PM, Dan Cross wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software >> Tools in Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's >> Pascal and Andy Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few >> related questions: >> >> 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? >> >> >> I'm afraid I can't speak to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but I can >> offer what I think is a reasonable guess about the first. >> >> One of the neat things about Unix and Unix-adjacent books of that era >> is that very often the copyright page held some information about the >> production of the book itself. I just so happened to have a copy of, >> "Software Tools in Pascal" sitting on my desk, and it says, "This >> books as set in Times Roman and Courier by the authors, using a >> Mergenthaler Linotron 202 phototypesetter driven by a PDP-11/70 >> running the Unix operating system." >> >> Given the PDP-11 and the date (1981) one may reasonably conclude that >> it was running 7th Edition. I imagine the pascal was Joy's, from >> Berkeley. >> >> - Dan C. >> > Great hint. 20 seconds after I hit send on the original email, I came > across this: > http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html > > Where Brian Kernighan talks about the challenges they faced porting > the ratfor examples into pascal. He explains that: > > The programs were first written in that dialect of Pascal > supported by the Pascal interpreter pi provided by the University > of California at Berkeley. The language is close to the nominal > standard of Jensen and Wirth,(6 > <http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html#lit-6>) with good > diagnostics and careful run-time checking. Since then, the > programs have also been run, unchanged except for new libraries of > primitives, on four other systems: an interpreter from the Free > University of Amsterdam (hereinafter referred to as VU, for Vrije > Universiteit), a VAX version of the Berkeley system (a true > compiler), a compiler purveyed by Whitesmiths, Ltd., and UCSD > Pascal on a Z80. All but the last of these Pascal systems are > written in C. > > So, you were right about it being Joy's pi. > > Thanks, > > Will On the good news front, I was able to find a working pi/px environment - 4.2bsd built from tape on simulated vax780 works great (thank god vi works there, too) and will run the programs in the book without mods, out of the box. 4.3 would probably work similarly (I put it on the list). I tried compiling the pascal distributed via 2bsd on v7, but wasn't able to get it built (story of my life). This is prolly expected because the notes in the distro say "This is still set up for version 6", so I'll stick with 4.2 for the time being. Just glad to have a working environment to supplement the reading. Will [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5609 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 0:40 ` Will Senn @ 2022-01-29 19:05 ` John Cowan 2022-01-29 19:36 ` arnold 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: John Cowan @ 2022-01-29 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3090 bytes --] It would be interesting to know if the S.T. in P. programs will run on {GNU,Free} Pascal. On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 7:41 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1/28/22 5:31 PM, Will Senn wrote: > > On 1/28/22 5:18 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software Tools in >> Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's Pascal and Andy >> Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few related questions: >> >> 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? >> > > I'm afraid I can't speak to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but I can offer > what I think is a reasonable guess about the first. > > One of the neat things about Unix and Unix-adjacent books of that era is > that very often the copyright page held some information about the > production of the book itself. I just so happened to have a copy of, > "Software Tools in Pascal" sitting on my desk, and it says, "This books as > set in Times Roman and Courier by the authors, using a Mergenthaler > Linotron 202 phototypesetter driven by a PDP-11/70 running the Unix > operating system." > > Given the PDP-11 and the date (1981) one may reasonably conclude that it > was running 7th Edition. I imagine the pascal was Joy's, from Berkeley. > > - Dan C. > > Great hint. 20 seconds after I hit send on the original email, I came > across this: > http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html > > Where Brian Kernighan talks about the challenges they faced porting the > ratfor examples into pascal. He explains that: > > The programs were first written in that dialect of Pascal supported by the > Pascal interpreter pi provided by the University of California at Berkeley. The > language is close to the nominal standard of Jensen and Wirth,(6 > <http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html#lit-6>) with good > diagnostics and careful run-time checking. Since then, the programs have > also been run, unchanged except for new libraries of primitives, on four > other systems: an interpreter from the Free University of Amsterdam > (hereinafter referred to as VU, for Vrije Universiteit), a VAX version of > the Berkeley system (a true compiler), a compiler purveyed by Whitesmiths, > Ltd., and UCSD Pascal on a Z80. All but the last of these Pascal systems > are written in C. > > So, you were right about it being Joy's pi. > > Thanks, > > Will > > > On the good news front, I was able to find a working pi/px environment - > 4.2bsd built from tape on simulated vax780 works great (thank god vi works > there, too) and will run the programs in the book without mods, out of the > box. 4.3 would probably work similarly (I put it on the list). I tried > compiling the pascal distributed via 2bsd on v7, but wasn't able to get it > built (story of my life). This is prolly expected because the notes in the > distro say "This is still set up for version 6", so I'll stick with 4.2 for > the time being. Just glad to have a working environment to supplement the > reading. > > Will > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5715 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 19:05 ` John Cowan @ 2022-01-29 19:36 ` arnold 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: arnold @ 2022-01-29 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: will.senn, cowan; +Cc: tuhs The code from Software Tools in Pascal is in the TUHS archives (courtesy of yours truly, quite some time ago). See Applications/Software_Tools/swt/Pascal/* So give them a go. :-) Arnold John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote: > It would be interesting to know if the S.T. in P. programs will run on > {GNU,Free} Pascal. > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 7:41 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 1/28/22 5:31 PM, Will Senn wrote: > > > > On 1/28/22 5:18 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:09 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I'm reading in, Kernighan & Plauger's 1981 edition of Software Tools in > >> Pascal and in the book, the author's mention Bill Joy's Pascal and Andy > >> Tanenbaum's as being rock solid. So, a few related questions: > >> > >> 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? > >> > > > > I'm afraid I can't speak to your 2nd and 3rd questions, but I can offer > > what I think is a reasonable guess about the first. > > > > One of the neat things about Unix and Unix-adjacent books of that era is > > that very often the copyright page held some information about the > > production of the book itself. I just so happened to have a copy of, > > "Software Tools in Pascal" sitting on my desk, and it says, "This books as > > set in Times Roman and Courier by the authors, using a Mergenthaler > > Linotron 202 phototypesetter driven by a PDP-11/70 running the Unix > > operating system." > > > > Given the PDP-11 and the date (1981) one may reasonably conclude that it > > was running 7th Edition. I imagine the pascal was Joy's, from Berkeley. > > > > - Dan C. > > > > Great hint. 20 seconds after I hit send on the original email, I came > > across this: > > http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html > > > > Where Brian Kernighan talks about the challenges they faced porting the > > ratfor examples into pascal. He explains that: > > > > The programs were first written in that dialect of Pascal supported by the > > Pascal interpreter pi provided by the University of California at Berkeley. The > > language is close to the nominal standard of Jensen and Wirth,(6 > > <http://www.lysator.liu.se/c/bwk-on-pascal.html#lit-6>) with good > > diagnostics and careful run-time checking. Since then, the programs have > > also been run, unchanged except for new libraries of primitives, on four > > other systems: an interpreter from the Free University of Amsterdam > > (hereinafter referred to as VU, for Vrije Universiteit), a VAX version of > > the Berkeley system (a true compiler), a compiler purveyed by Whitesmiths, > > Ltd., and UCSD Pascal on a Z80. All but the last of these Pascal systems > > are written in C. > > > > So, you were right about it being Joy's pi. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Will > > > > > > On the good news front, I was able to find a working pi/px environment - > > 4.2bsd built from tape on simulated vax780 works great (thank god vi works > > there, too) and will run the programs in the book without mods, out of the > > box. 4.3 would probably work similarly (I put it on the list). I tried > > compiling the pascal distributed via 2bsd on v7, but wasn't able to get it > > built (story of my life). This is prolly expected because the notes in the > > distro say "This is still set up for version 6", so I'll stick with 4.2 for > > the time being. Just glad to have a working environment to supplement the > > reading. > > > > Will > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-28 23:07 [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? Will Senn 2022-01-28 23:18 ` Dan Cross @ 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:02 ` Jon Steinhart ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-01-29 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3966 bytes --] On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:08 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > 1. What edition of UNIX were they likely to be using? > Already answered ... > 2. What versions of "Standard Pascal" were in vogue on UNIX at the time > (1981)? > Remember in 1981, the 'Pascal Standard' was still in flight. ISO 7185 was 1983 and Pascal really does not standardize enough that real portability was possible until the 1990 version and people actually started implementing compilers that obeyed it. > > 3. What combinations of UNIX/Pascal were popular? > Depends the implementation... there were a number of them... there were the ones I had at that time - UCB Pascal -- pi being the most popular for the PDP-11, and later pc for the Vax - VU Pascal for the 11 - The Zurich P4 compiler was around and of course eventually begat UCSD, but I don't remember that it was directly made to run on Unix[I did not have one], although it may/must have been. - The Similer2 compiler for 68000 [was one of Wirth's -- I think was the basis for the compiler that they used for Lilith - or maybe it was a fork that produced the Lilith and the Similer2 compiler -- I don't remember]. That showed up on a couple of the 68K workstations in 1981. - Andy's Amsterdam Toolkit - There was a compiler that the RTS folks had at MIT, but I don't know its origin or how complete it was. - Purdue had something that had started on the CDCs -- that went to Tektronix and was the basis for some of the stuff the Logical Analizer folks were using. It was cross compiler that ran on Unix and generated 8-bit microprocessor code for embedded systems. - Per Brinch Hansen had a Pascal that we was pushing, but I don't think he even moved it to Unix - Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. And the problem was 'standard' - lots of people messed with it and every Pascal was a little different. In 1981 at one of the HP/Tektronix [Hatfield/McCoy parties - Stienhart probably remembers], Mike Zuhl, TW Cook and I counted 14 different "Tek Pascal's" and over 25 "HP Basic's" -- each was a little different. UCSD Pascal was its own system, not Unix [sort of like Smalltalk -- a walled garden within itself]. They started with the P4 compiler but they made it work on 8-bit systems, so while it was around, it was not a UNIX Pascal >>and<< it the Standard was still in flight. The OMSI Pascal compiler was popular for the PDP-11's, but it was RT-11 and RSX [maybe RSTS, but I'm not sure]. The Zurich PDP-10 Compiler was very popular in PDP-10 land. DEC released the VAX/pascal for VMS, which they eventually brought to Ultrix and Tru64. I believe that that was a scratch rewrite and did not use P4 or anything from the PDP-10s or CDC systems before it. One of the big issues with P4 based stuff is that the original P2 porting kit from Wirth assumed a 40 bit integer of the CDC system. Making it work with a 36 bit world was a tad easier than the 32 or 16 bit world, much less the 8-bit micros. Folks like DEC, UCB and Amsterdam which started over with a new front end, tended to have an easier go of it and often had better compiler tools [which were mostly C based BTW for UNIX and a combination of Pascal and BLISS at DEC]. Sun later brought the UCB PI and PC to the SunOS, but pls Rob G/Larry correct me here - I think they later did their own compiler when they did their new C and Fortran. Masscomp started with the Similer2 compiler, but eventually did a new front end that matched their C and Fortran like DEC had. As for SWTinP running with FreePascal. I looked into it and decided it was doable, but never went very fair with my investigation since the need for it, was less. Back in the days of VMS, Pr1meOS and the like, SWT was a Godsend. But Windows and like have real Unix subsystems, so I never really was motivated other than pure curiosity. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7164 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-01-29 20:02 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-29 20:13 ` Bakul Shah ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Jon Steinhart @ 2022-01-29 20:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS main list Clem Cole writes: > > And the problem was 'standard' - lots of people messed with it and every > Pascal was a little different. In 1981 at one of the HP/Tektronix > [Hatfield/McCoy parties - Stienhart probably remembers], Mike Zuhl, TW Cook > and I counted 14 different "Tek Pascal's" and over 25 "HP Basic's" -- each > was a little different. Oh yeah. Part of this was because Pascal wasn't really up to the job. So many product groups added their own p-codes for things that they needed. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:02 ` Jon Steinhart @ 2022-01-29 20:13 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-29 20:30 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:34 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-30 16:57 ` David Barto 2022-02-07 3:04 ` [TUHS] " Rob Gingell 3 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-29 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 549 bytes --] On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: > > Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. Tunis was implemented in Concurrent Euclid, a descendant of the Euclid programming language, designed by Ric Hort and James Cordy. They later designed Turing, which had some features from Pascal. [I bought their books during the '80s] Per Brinch Hansen designed Concurrent Pascal and implemented the Solo operating Solo operating system in it. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1716 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 20:13 ` Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-29 20:30 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:34 ` Larry McVoy 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2022-01-29 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 666 bytes --] Thanks -- sorry, they all blurr together. On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 3:13 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > > - Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a > UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. > > > Tunis was implemented in Concurrent Euclid, a descendant of > the Euclid programming language, designed by Ric Hort and > James Cordy. They later designed Turing, which had some > features from Pascal. [I bought their books during the '80s] > > Per Brinch Hansen designed Concurrent Pascal and implemented > the Solo operating Solo operating system in it. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1728 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 20:13 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-29 20:30 ` Clem Cole @ 2022-01-29 20:34 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-29 21:03 ` Al Kossow 2022-01-29 22:06 ` Bakul Shah 1 sibling, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-01-29 20:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: TUHS main list On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:13:06PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: > On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: > > > > Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. > > Tunis was implemented in Concurrent Euclid, a descendant of > the Euclid programming language, designed by Ric Hort and > James Cordy. I read the Tunis book, it seemed pretty cool from the book but I've never played with it. Has anyone? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 20:34 ` Larry McVoy @ 2022-01-29 21:03 ` Al Kossow 2022-01-29 21:38 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-29 22:06 ` Bakul Shah 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Al Kossow @ 2022-01-29 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 1/29/22 12:34 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > I read the Tunis book, it seemed pretty cool from the book but I've never > played with it. Has anyone? > http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfToronto/ PC version ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 21:03 ` Al Kossow @ 2022-01-29 21:38 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-01-29 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Al Kossow; +Cc: tuhs On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 01:03:48PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/29/22 12:34 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > > >I read the Tunis book, it seemed pretty cool from the book but I've never > >played with it. Has anyone? > > > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfToronto/ Is Tunis preserved anywhere and has anyone run it? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 20:34 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-29 21:03 ` Al Kossow @ 2022-01-29 22:06 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-29 22:48 ` GREEN 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-29 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: TUHS main list > On Jan 29, 2022, at 12:34 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > > On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:13:06PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. >> >> Tunis was implemented in Concurrent Euclid, a descendant of >> the Euclid programming language, designed by Ric Hort and >> James Cordy. > > I read the Tunis book, it seemed pretty cool from the book but I've never > played with it. Has anyone? From Tunis I borrowed signal() & wait() as synchronization primitives for the simulation library I wrote in 1983 but that was about it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 22:06 ` Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-29 22:48 ` GREEN 2022-01-30 3:27 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: GREEN @ 2022-01-29 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: TUHS main list I was one of the TAs for the grad course that produced Tunis. It was heavily influenced by V6 which we were running at the time. It was designed to run on a stripped down PDP11 so it could be used in a classroom. Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 29, 2022, at 5:07 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > > > >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 12:34 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:13:06PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: >>> On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. >>> >>> Tunis was implemented in Concurrent Euclid, a descendant of >>> the Euclid programming language, designed by Ric Hort and >>> James Cordy. >> >> I read the Tunis book, it seemed pretty cool from the book but I've never >> played with it. Has anyone? > > From Tunis I borrowed signal() & wait() as synchronization > primitives for the simulation library I wrote in 1983 but > that was about it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 22:48 ` GREEN @ 2022-01-30 3:27 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2022-01-30 3:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: GREEN; +Cc: Bakul Shah, TUHS main list So what did you think of Tunis compared to V6? I really liked the book, I'm hoping it was good but reality is not always that. On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 05:48:39PM -0500, GREEN wrote: > I was one of the TAs for the grad course that produced Tunis. It was heavily influenced by V6 which we were running at the time. It was designed to run on a stripped down PDP11 so it could be used in a classroom. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jan 29, 2022, at 5:07 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > > > > ??? > > > >> On Jan 29, 2022, at 12:34 PM, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > >> > >>> On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 12:13:06PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: > >>> On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Plus, the "Tunis" folks in Toronto had a Concurrent-Pascal and a UNIX-like system that ran on PDP-11s. > >>> > >>> Tunis was implemented in Concurrent Euclid, a descendant of > >>> the Euclid programming language, designed by Ric Hort and > >>> James Cordy. > >> > >> I read the Tunis book, it seemed pretty cool from the book but I've never > >> played with it. Has anyone? > > > > From Tunis I borrowed signal() & wait() as synchronization > > primitives for the simulation library I wrote in 1983 but > > that was about it. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:02 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-29 20:13 ` Bakul Shah @ 2022-01-30 16:57 ` David Barto 2022-01-30 18:07 ` [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was " Dan Stromberg 2022-02-07 3:04 ` [TUHS] " Rob Gingell 3 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: David Barto @ 2022-01-30 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 688 bytes --] > On Jan 29, 2022, at 11:59 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 6:08 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com <mailto:will.senn@gmail.com>> wrote: > > 3. What combinations of UNIX/Pascal were popular? > Depends the implementation... there were a number of them... there were the ones I had at that time > The Zurich P4 compiler was around and of course eventually begat UCSD, but I don't remember that it was directly made to run on Unix[I did not have one], although it may/must have been. Yes, the UCSD P-code interpreter was ported to 4.1 BSD on the VAX and it ran natively there. I used it on sdcsvax in my senior year (1980). David [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2357 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 16:57 ` David Barto @ 2022-01-30 18:07 ` Dan Stromberg 2022-01-30 20:09 ` David Barto ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Dan Stromberg @ 2022-01-30 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1172 bytes --] On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:58 AM David Barto <david@kdbarto.org> wrote: > Yes, the UCSD P-code interpreter was ported to 4.1 BSD on the VAX and it > ran natively there. I used it on sdcsvax in my senior year (1980). > This reminds me of a question I've had percolating in the back of my mind. Was USCD Pascal "compiled" or "interpreted" or both? And is Java? They both have a byte code interpreter. Yes, modern Java is JIT-compiled, but does that make Java a compiled language in the Oracle implementation, or is it an interpreter with a pretty good runtime? Wasn't Java referred to as "compiled" even back before the JIT compiler was added? Granted, gcj is compiled. But Oracle's implementation of Java is commonly referred to as a "Compiler". And what about back before Java's JIT compiler was added - ISTR recall Java was referred to as a compiled language before the JIT addition. And then there's the CPython implementation of Python. It too uses a byte code interpreter, but it's commonly referred to as "interpreted". But is it really? Granted, it has an implicit, cached compilation step, but is it less compiled for that? Is there consistency here? [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1733 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 18:07 ` [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was " Dan Stromberg @ 2022-01-30 20:09 ` David Barto 2022-01-31 7:59 ` WEB 2022-01-30 22:51 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-31 1:41 ` Phil Budne 2 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: David Barto @ 2022-01-30 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Stromberg; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1553 bytes --] > On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:08 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:58 AM David Barto <david@kdbarto.org> wrote: >> Yes, the UCSD P-code interpreter was ported to 4.1 BSD on the VAX and it ran natively there. I used it on sdcsvax in my senior year (1980). > > This reminds me of a question I've had percolating in the back of my mind. > > Was USCD Pascal "compiled" or "interpreted" or both? > > And is Java? They both have a byte code interpreter. Yes, modern Java is JIT-compiled, but does that make Java a compiled language in the Oracle implementation, or is it an interpreter with a pretty good runtime? Wasn't Java referred to as "compiled" even back before the JIT compiler was added? Granted, gcj is compiled. But Oracle's implementation of Java is commonly referred to as a "Compiler". And what about back before Java's JIT compiler was added - ISTR recall Java was referred to as a compiled language before the JIT addition. > > And then there's the CPython implementation of Python. It too uses a byte code interpreter, but it's commonly referred to as "interpreted". But is it really? Granted, it has an implicit, cached compilation step, but is it less compiled for that? > > Is there consistency here? > UCSD Pascal was “compiled” into the byte code of the interpreter. I wrote a P-code assembler in my senior year as part of the compiler class. Java started out doing the same thing and over time native code generation was added in gcj. David [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2316 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 20:09 ` David Barto @ 2022-01-31 7:59 ` WEB 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: WEB @ 2022-01-31 7:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1056 bytes --] Am 30.01.2022 um 21:09 schrieb David Barto: > >> On Jan 30, 2022, at 10:08 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:58 AM David Barto <david@kdbarto.org> wrote: >> >> Yes, the UCSD P-code interpreter was ported to 4.1 BSD on the VAX >> and it ran natively there. I used it on sdcsvax in my senior year >> (1980). >> >> >> This reminds me of a question I've had percolating in the back of my >> mind. >> >> Was USCD Pascal "compiled" or "interpreted" or both? [..] > UCSD Pascal was “compiled” into the byte code of the interpreter. I > wrote a P-code assembler in my senior year as part of the compiler > class. Java started out doing the same thing and over time native code > generation was added in gcj. Just for the record: There has been the WD9000 chipset which is actually an LSI-11 with different Microms which could run the P-code (of UCSD Pascal III) natively as it was its machine code. So this makes a distinction of interpreted vs compiled even more fuzzy. Holger [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2599 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 18:07 ` [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was " Dan Stromberg 2022-01-30 20:09 ` David Barto @ 2022-01-30 22:51 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-30 23:57 ` Dan Stromberg 2022-01-31 0:23 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-31 1:41 ` Phil Budne 2 siblings, 2 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Dan Cross @ 2022-01-30 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Stromberg; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4248 bytes --] On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 1:08 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:58 AM David Barto <david@kdbarto.org> wrote: > >> Yes, the UCSD P-code interpreter was ported to 4.1 BSD on the VAX and it >> ran natively there. I used it on sdcsvax in my senior year (1980). >> > > This reminds me of a question I've had percolating in the back of my mind. > > Was USCD Pascal "compiled" or "interpreted" or both? > As others have mentioned, both. The compiler generated P-code, which was a specialized bytecode representation of the compiled Pascal source. The beauty of this is that it makes porting the system fairly easy; one need only write a P-code interpreter. Assuming the system ships with a p-code "binary" representation of the compiler in addition to the sources, one could make it self-hosting very easily. With a threaded P-code interpreter, it can also be quite small, making constrained 8-bit microcomputers (like the Apple II) reasonable targets for Pascal. This sort of representation also has some interesting properties with respect to the actual bytecode used; it could, for example, have some understanding of the semantics of types in the programming language. The Dis virtual machine for the Limbo programming language used with the Inferno virtual operating system did this; Dis understood Limbo strings, whereas this isn't true on most machine architectures. And is Java? They both have a byte code interpreter. Yes, modern Java is > JIT-compiled, but does that make Java a compiled language in the Oracle > implementation, or is it an interpreter with a pretty good runtime? > Again, both. The compiler emits java bytecodes, which the JVM interprets. Wasn't Java referred to as "compiled" even back before the JIT compiler was > added? > Yes! Granted, gcj is compiled. > Well, gcj (optionally) compiles to native machine code and comes with a library that implements the functionality usually provided by the JVM; that is, it can target a platform other than the JVM and give mostly the same functionality. But javac and gcj are both very much compilers. But Oracle's implementation of Java is commonly referred to as a > "Compiler". And what about back before Java's JIT compiler was added - > ISTR recall Java was referred to as a compiled language before the JIT > addition. > This is correct. A compiler simply transforms some representation of data into a different representation of that same data, possibly with some semantic loss; the canonical example is textual "source code" for some programming language translated into object code for some target hardware architecture, but this need not be the case. We were discussing troff and TeX the other day; both of these are compilers, in that they take some high-level source representation of a document and transform it into a typeset representation. (Note: I mean "semantic loss" in the sense that, say, we may lose details about types or the organization of data in the compiled artifact.) And then there's the CPython implementation of Python. It too uses a byte > code interpreter, but it's commonly referred to as "interpreted". But is > it really? Granted, it has an implicit, cached compilation step, but is it > less compiled for that? > I think that "interpreted" in this context means the load-and-go nature of the system and the transience of the bytecode: the text is internally compiled and then executed, but these steps are often linked and, while one can coax the Python "interpreter" to emit .pyc and/or .pyo files, usually one does not: the compiled bytecodes are lost as soon as the program is done executing. Is there consistency here? > Not really. As an interesting aside, before Java became widespread I heard folks mention "P-code" as a generic term for what most folks mean when they say "bytecode." Now we often just say "bytecode." Similarly with JIT in lieu of "load and go", though Java's JIT is a bit different (it's converting from bytecode to native machine code on the fly; it's even more elaborate when things like hot-spot are taken into account, where the runtime has a kind of built-in profiler and will optimize particularly expensive bits of the code over time). - Dan C. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6507 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 22:51 ` Dan Cross @ 2022-01-30 23:57 ` Dan Stromberg 2022-01-31 0:23 ` Nemo Nusquam 1 sibling, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Dan Stromberg @ 2022-01-30 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1541 bytes --] On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 2:52 PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 1:08 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 8:58 AM David Barto <david@kdbarto.org> wrote: >> >>> Yes, the UCSD P-code interpreter was ported to 4.1 BSD on the VAX and it >>> ran natively there. I used it on sdcsvax in my senior year (1980). >>> >> >> Wasn't Java referred to as "compiled" even back before the JIT compiler >> was added? >> > > Yes! > > And then there's the CPython implementation of Python. It too uses a byte >> code interpreter, but it's commonly referred to as "interpreted". But is >> it really? Granted, it has an implicit, cached compilation step, but is it >> less compiled for that? >> > > I think that "interpreted" in this context means the load-and-go nature of > the system and the transience of the bytecode: the text is internally > compiled and then executed, but these steps are often linked and, while one > can coax the Python "interpreter" to emit .pyc and/or .pyo files, usually > one does not: the compiled bytecodes are lost as soon as the program is > done executing. > An interesting response. I'll point out though, being a little picky, that python's "import" statement will look for a .py, compile it, and write the byte code as a .pyc - automatically. Then on subsequent invocations of the program(s) using this module it will compare timestamps on the .py and .pyc and if the .pyc is more recent than the .py, the compilation step will be skipped. Thanks. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2950 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 22:51 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-30 23:57 ` Dan Stromberg @ 2022-01-31 0:23 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-31 0:45 ` Steve Nickolas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Nemo Nusquam @ 2022-01-31 0:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 2022-01-30 17:51, Dan Cross wrote (in part): > Not really. As an interesting aside, before Java became widespread I > heard folks mention "P-code" as a generic term for what most folks > mean when they say "bytecode." Now we often just say "bytecode." Wirth called his Pascal bytecode P-code and his Modula bytecode M-code. Why did Gosling not call his bytecode "J-code"? > - Dan C. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-31 0:23 ` Nemo Nusquam @ 2022-01-31 0:45 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-01-31 17:16 ` Paul Winalski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 32+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2022-01-31 0:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 535 bytes --] On Sun, 30 Jan 2022, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > On 2022-01-30 17:51, Dan Cross wrote (in part): >> Not really. As an interesting aside, before Java became widespread I heard >> folks mention "P-code" as a generic term for what most folks mean when they >> say "bytecode." Now we often just say "bytecode." > > Wirth called his Pascal bytecode P-code and his Modula bytecode M-code. Why > did Gosling not call his bytecode "J-code"? And I think I've heard the Infocom compilers' bytecode called "Z-code" (I use this term too). -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-31 0:45 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2022-01-31 17:16 ` Paul Winalski 2022-01-31 20:00 ` Erik E. Fair ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Paul Winalski @ 2022-01-31 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Nickolas; +Cc: tuhs On 1/30/22, Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote: > > And I think I've heard the Infocom compilers' bytecode called "Z-code" (I > use this term too). > That is correct. The Infocom games ran on an interpreter for an abstract machine called the Z-machine. Z-code is the Z-machine's instruction set. There is a freeware implementation out there called Frotz. -Paul W. "Plugh" (said in a hollow voice) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-31 17:16 ` Paul Winalski @ 2022-01-31 20:00 ` Erik E. Fair 2022-01-31 22:45 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-02-02 4:53 ` Adam Thornton 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Erik E. Fair @ 2022-01-31 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs The definitions and boundaries between: Instruction Set Architecture (usually hardware, but see Webasm) P-code/bytecode interpreter internal instructions (e.g. Pascal, Java) Register Transfer Languages (RTL - compilers) seem awfully ... fuzzy. Are there any hard & fast rules for classifying particular implementations into taxnomical categories? Wikipedia has an over-arching definition for "intermediate representation" ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_representation This is related to Unix in that Unix itself (both kernel system call API & C library) is an abstracting intermediary between the hardware (whole computer system including storage, networking), and application software, which "if written portably" doesn't have to care what hardware it's run on, so long as that hardware meets some minimum requirements for both Unix, and whatever the application's needs are. Erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-31 17:16 ` Paul Winalski 2022-01-31 20:00 ` Erik E. Fair @ 2022-01-31 22:45 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-02-02 4:53 ` Adam Thornton 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Steve Nickolas @ 2022-01-31 22:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Winalski; +Cc: tuhs On Mon, 31 Jan 2022, Paul Winalski wrote: > On 1/30/22, Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote: >> >> And I think I've heard the Infocom compilers' bytecode called "Z-code" (I >> use this term too). >> > That is correct. The Infocom games ran on an interpreter for an > abstract machine called the Z-machine. Z-code is the Z-machine's > instruction set. There is a freeware implementation out there called > Frotz. > > -Paul W. > > "Plugh" (said in a hollow voice) > There's also InfoTaskForce and JZIP, both of which I *think* work on *x, but they are not as advanced as Frotz. JZIP comes closer, having been Frotz's main competition for some time in the late 1990s. -uso. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-31 17:16 ` Paul Winalski 2022-01-31 20:00 ` Erik E. Fair 2022-01-31 22:45 ` Steve Nickolas @ 2022-02-02 4:53 ` Adam Thornton 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Adam Thornton @ 2022-02-02 4:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Computer Old Farts Followers [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 655 bytes --] On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 10:17 AM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> wrote: > On 1/30/22, Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote: > > And I think I've heard the Infocom compilers' bytecode called "Z-code" (I > > use this term too). > That is correct. The Infocom games ran on an interpreter for an > abstract machine called the Z-machine. Z-code is the Z-machine's > instruction set. There is a freeware implementation out there called > Frotz. > > There's a reasonably functional Frotz implementation for TOPS-20, as it happens. The ZIP interpreter was easier to port to 2.11BSD on the PDP-11. https://github.com/athornton/tops20-frotz Adam [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1216 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-30 18:07 ` [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was " Dan Stromberg 2022-01-30 20:09 ` David Barto 2022-01-30 22:51 ` Dan Cross @ 2022-01-31 1:41 ` Phil Budne 2 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Phil Budne @ 2022-01-31 1:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs, drsalists > Is there consistency here? There's a wide spectrum of strategies used for implementation of languages, and no perfect and universally agreed on taxonomy. (And in networking, where there is an "International Standard" taxonomy, both the original ARPAnet, and the modern Internet don't fit into the (ISO) model!) At ends of the spectrum you might get people to agree on the "pure interpreter", which intreprets source code DIRECTLY, and the "native code compiler", which generates instructions for the instruction set of a physical computer (typically the one the compiler is running on, with the term "cross compiler" used when the target architecture is different than the one the compiler is running on). I don't doubt this has been brought up many times in the "comp.compilers" group: https://compilers.iecc.com/ To bring the discussion back to "Unix Heritage": The earliest Unix shells were pure interpreters (and for all I know, most still are). Some BASIC language systems have been pure interpreters, but it gets murky fast; Some interpretive systems have converted source code to tokens in memory, or even saved to disk. Beyond pure interpreters, most interpreters perform some kind of compilation into some alternate representation of the program often starting (with and sometimes (LISP), ending) with a tree. Often, the tree is traversed to a prefix or postfix "polish" form, which might, or might not be written out (as a byte code, or other intermediate form). The earliest Unix language systems (TMG and B) on both the PDP-7 and PDP-11 are interesting in that they output "word code" that is assembled by as, and loaded with ld to produce "regular" executable files which contain interpreters. The earliest (PDP-7) Unix compilers, TMG and B both generated code for (stack-oriented, postfix) pseudo machines (which happened to have opcode fields the same size and position as the PDP-7 itself). Since PDP-11 pointers can be a full 16-bit word, PDP-11 TMG and B generate a stream of 16-bit postfix code (with pointers to interpreter and "native code" support routines). TMG contains an interpreter loop, but the B interpreter is "threaded code" using machine register r3 for the interpreter program counter, and each interpreter opcode routine ends with "jmp *(r3)+" I haven't examined Sixth Edition "bas" (written in assembler) closely enough to say what kind of internal representation (if any) it uses. "bc" generates postfix "dc" code using a yacc parser, and "sno" appears to recursively eval a tree. Seventh Edition awk looks to recursively execute a tree generated by a yacc parser. Compilers on older/smaller systems were sometimes divided into multiple passes and wrote intermediate representations to disk, and such output _could_ have been interpreted. Language processors which output source code for another language (on heritage Unix; struct, ratfor, and cfront for early C++) are usually called preprocessors. So... Interpreters and preprocessors may perform much the same work as compilers in their front ends, may or may not be identified as compilers. Java (and UCSD Pascal?) have compilers (to virtual machine code) and an interpreter (for the virtual machine code). Clear as mud? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2022-01-30 16:57 ` David Barto @ 2022-02-07 3:04 ` Rob Gingell 3 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: Rob Gingell @ 2022-02-07 3:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Clem Cole, Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list On 1/29/2022 11:59 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > Sun later brought the UCB PI and PC to the SunOS, but pls Rob G/Larry > correct me here - I think they later did their own compiler when they > did their new C and Fortran. Sun never replaced the UCB Pascal front-end, just moved it across back-ends as it evolved them. The development of SPARC required Sun to develop back-end expertise. Although the investments focused on SPARC, there was also work on the back-ends for the Motorola- and Intel-based products. Sun's front-end investments began with the SVR4 project as an ANSI C compiler was needed. (A priority for SVR4 was conformance with then-current external standards such as POSIX and ANSI. Over the course of SVR4's development strict ANSI conformance came to be seen as problematic: most SV licensees didn't just use the release as delivered and instead merged portions into their extant, and not ANSI, product source code bases. This led to some late-in-the-project de-ANSIfying of the source in the interest of making SVR4 more digestible by the licensees.) That C compiler was the basis for the unbundled C compiler product that came out at the time of SunOS 4.1. Sun's larger investments in front-end development were motivated by the later transition from F77 to F9X. Which is another data point in support of Clem's frequent observation that FORTRAN is a big deal in parts of the real world. At that point Sun tended to its own front ends for C, C++, and FORTRAN but Pascal was always the UCB front end. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
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* [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was Re: Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? [not found] <A84C7761-A80D-4F8D-B541-2C7F7E5B5E39@hotmail.co.uk> @ 2022-01-30 20:09 ` silas poulson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 32+ messages in thread From: silas poulson @ 2022-01-30 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 955 bytes --] Resending this as realised accidentally replied off list Silas On 30 Jan 2022, at 18:39, silas poulson <silas8642@hotmail.co.uk<mailto:silas8642@hotmail.co.uk>> wrote: On 30 Jan 2022, at 18:07, Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com<mailto:drsalists@gmail.com>> wrote: And is Java? They both have a byte code interpreter. My understanding is Java is both a compiled and interpreted language - with javac compiling java code to byte code and then JVM interpreting and executing the byte code. And then there's the CPython implementation of Python. <snip> Granted, it has an implicit, cached compilation step, but is it less compiled for that? I would so no - in my mind compiling analyses the entire source and then translates it whilst interpreters only explore a single line or expression. Simply because the compilation happens only Just In Time, doesn’t make it any less of a compilation step. Hope that helps, Silas [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1929 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 32+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-02-07 3:04 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 32+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-01-28 23:07 [TUHS] Looking back to 1981 - what pascal was popular on what unix? Will Senn 2022-01-28 23:18 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-28 23:31 ` Will Senn 2022-01-29 0:03 ` Rob Pike 2022-01-29 0:40 ` Will Senn 2022-01-29 19:05 ` John Cowan 2022-01-29 19:36 ` arnold 2022-01-29 19:59 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:02 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-29 20:13 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-29 20:30 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-29 20:34 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-29 21:03 ` Al Kossow 2022-01-29 21:38 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-29 22:06 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-29 22:48 ` GREEN 2022-01-30 3:27 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-30 16:57 ` David Barto 2022-01-30 18:07 ` [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was " Dan Stromberg 2022-01-30 20:09 ` David Barto 2022-01-31 7:59 ` WEB 2022-01-30 22:51 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-30 23:57 ` Dan Stromberg 2022-01-31 0:23 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-31 0:45 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-01-31 17:16 ` Paul Winalski 2022-01-31 20:00 ` Erik E. Fair 2022-01-31 22:45 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-02-02 4:53 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-31 1:41 ` Phil Budne 2022-02-07 3:04 ` [TUHS] " Rob Gingell [not found] <A84C7761-A80D-4F8D-B541-2C7F7E5B5E39@hotmail.co.uk> 2022-01-30 20:09 ` [TUHS] Compilation "vs" byte-code interpretation, was " silas poulson
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