[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Clem Cole

    > Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine. John Romkey
    > may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP

I decided to poke around in the 'MIT-CSR' dump, since that was the machine
the PC/IP project started on, to see what I could find. Hoo boy! What an
adventure!

In the PC/IP area, I found a 'c86' directory - but it was almost empty. It
did have a shell file, 'grab', which contained:

  tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<Wayne>$1"

and a 'graball' file which called 'grab' for the list of compiler source
files. ('xx' was MIT-XX, the TOPS-20 main time-sharing machint of LCS.)

So I did a Web search for Wayne Gramlich (with whom I hadn't communicated in
many decades), and he popped right up. (Amazing thing, this Internet thingy.
Who'd have ever thought, back in the day, that it would turn into what it
did? Well, probably John Brunner, whom I (sadly) never met, who was there
before any of us.)

I took a chance, and called his number, and he was there, and we had a long
chat. He absolutely didn't do it, although he wrote the loader the project
used ('l68', the source for which I did find.) He's virtually certain Romkey
didn't (which would have been my guess too; Romkey was like a sophmore when
the project started). His best (_very_ faded) memory was that they started off
with a commercial compiler. (But see below.)

That leaves several mysteries. 1) Why would a commercial compiler not come
with a linker? 2) Why did people who wanted to work with the PC/IP source
need a Bell license?


I did some more poking, and the list of files for the 86 compiler, from
'graball':

  trees.c optim.c pftn.c code.c local.c scan.c xdefs.c
  table.c reader.c local2.c order.c match.c allo.c comm1.c
  manifest mfile1 common macdefs mfile2 mac2defs

matched the file names from 'pcc', as given in "A Tour Through the Portable C
Compiler":

  https://maibriz.de/unix/ultrix/_root/porttour.pdf

(in section "The Source Files"). So whether the 86 compiler was done at MIT
(by someone in RTS), or at a company, it was definitely a 'pcc' descendant.

(Possibly adding to the confusion, we had some other C compilers for various
ISA's in that project [building networking software for various
micro-computers], including an 8080 C compiler from Whitesmiths, Ltd, which I
have also found. It's possible that Wayne's vague memory of a commercial
compiler is of that one?)

I really should reach out to Romkey and Bridgham, to see what they remember.
Later today.

Whether the main motivation for keeping the compiler source on XX was i)
because disk space was short on CSR (we had only a hand-me-down pair of
CalComp Model 215 drives - capacity 58 Mbytes per drive!); ii) to prevent
version skew; or iii) because it was a commercial compiler, and we had to
protect the source (e.g. we didn't have the source to the 8080 compiler, only
the object modules), I have no idea.


    > Anyway the MIT RTS folks made hardware and PCC back ends for the 68K,
    > Z8000 and 8086. I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt who
    > sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K assembler.

There is an 'a86' directory on CSR, but it too is empty, except for a 'grab'
command file. That contains only:

  tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<novick>$1"

I have no memory of who 'novick' might have been. A Web search for 'novick
mit lcs' didn' turn anything up. (I wonder if it might have been Carol
Novitsky; she was in our group at LCS, and I have a vague memory of her being
associated with the networking software for micro-computers project.)

Anyway, it probably doesn't matter; the c86 'grab' referred to Wayne, but he
didn't write c86; 'novick' might not have written a86.

Something else to ask Romkey and Bridgham about.

	  Noel

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Lawrence Stewart]

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> On Apr 30, 2025, at 9:11 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> 
> Who'd have ever thought, back in the day, that it would turn into what it
> did? Well, probably John Brunner, whom I (sadly) never met, who was there
> before any of us.)
> 

The reference here is to Shockwave Rider, by John Brunner in 1975.

I did meet him once. He came by PARC to talk to John Shoch and John Hupp, who 
had written a network “worm” after Brunner’s naming. A very prescient author!

“The “worm” programs — early experience with a distributed computation”.  Shoch and Hupp https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/102616.102636


-Larry


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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Lawrence Stewart]

It isn’t Unix related, but it is a fun Interdata war story.

I hung out at the MIT Architecture Machine in the early 70’s (the Media Lab before it was the Media Lab.)
The lab used Interdata minis, with homegrown software.  My part was designing and building
various I/O devices, including parts of a network interconnecting the various minis.

There were Interdata model 3, model 5, model 75, and one blazing fast model 85 with semiconductor memory.  The rest were core.

I think the first 7/32 we got had two 32K core modules.  There was a microcode bug, such that in some case the microcode did not disable a non-maskable interrupt, so if the ISR was so foolish as to cause one, the machine got stuck in an interrupt loop.  You couldn’t clear it by reset or by power cycling the machine, because core!  The bad state was in the memory and was non-volatile.  It was possible to clear (sometimes) by swapping the two core modules with the power off, if the other one didn’t have the poison bits, but if they did, the only thing that worked was to unplug the memory module with the power on.  Luckily the OS guys figured out how to fix the ISR before we trashed anything permanently.

-L

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Steve Nickolas]

On Wed, 30 Apr 2025, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> That leaves several mysteries. 1) Why would a commercial compiler not come
> with a linker? 2) Why did people who wanted to work with the PC/IP source
> need a Bell license?

A possible answer for 1, since we're probably talking about a compiler for 
MS-DOS: most releases of MS-DOS and PC DOS, at least through version 3.3, 
came with a linker, so maybe they didn't deem it necessary.

-uso.

[TUHS] PC/IP (was: Any Interdata war stories?)

[Jonathan Gray]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 09:11:35AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Clem Cole
> 
>     > Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine. John Romkey
>     > may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP
> 
> I decided to poke around in the 'MIT-CSR' dump, since that was the machine
> the PC/IP project started on, to see what I could find. Hoo boy! What an
> adventure!
> 
> In the PC/IP area, I found a 'c86' directory - but it was almost empty. It
> did have a shell file, 'grab', which contained:
> 
>   tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<Wayne>$1"
> 
> and a 'graball' file which called 'grab' for the list of compiler source
> files. ('xx' was MIT-XX, the TOPS-20 main time-sharing machint of LCS.)
> 
> So I did a Web search for Wayne Gramlich (with whom I hadn't communicated in
> many decades), and he popped right up. (Amazing thing, this Internet thingy.
> Who'd have ever thought, back in the day, that it would turn into what it
> did? Well, probably John Brunner, whom I (sadly) never met, who was there
> before any of us.)
> 
> I took a chance, and called his number, and he was there, and we had a long
> chat. He absolutely didn't do it, although he wrote the loader the project
> used ('l68', the source for which I did find.) He's virtually certain Romkey
> didn't (which would have been my guess too; Romkey was like a sophmore when
> the project started). His best (_very_ faded) memory was that they started off
> with a commercial compiler. (But see below.)
> 
> That leaves several mysteries. 1) Why would a commercial compiler not come
> with a linker? 2) Why did people who wanted to work with the PC/IP source
> need a Bell license?
> 
> 
> I did some more poking, and the list of files for the 86 compiler, from
> 'graball':
> 
>   trees.c optim.c pftn.c code.c local.c scan.c xdefs.c
>   table.c reader.c local2.c order.c match.c allo.c comm1.c
>   manifest mfile1 common macdefs mfile2 mac2defs
> 
> matched the file names from 'pcc', as given in "A Tour Through the Portable C
> Compiler":
> 
>   https://maibriz.de/unix/ultrix/_root/porttour.pdf
> 
> (in section "The Source Files"). So whether the 86 compiler was done at MIT
> (by someone in RTS), or at a company, it was definitely a 'pcc' descendant.
> 
> (Possibly adding to the confusion, we had some other C compilers for various
> ISA's in that project [building networking software for various
> micro-computers], including an 8080 C compiler from Whitesmiths, Ltd, which I
> have also found. It's possible that Wayne's vague memory of a commercial
> compiler is of that one?)
> 
> I really should reach out to Romkey and Bridgham, to see what they remember.
> Later today.
> 
> Whether the main motivation for keeping the compiler source on XX was i)
> because disk space was short on CSR (we had only a hand-me-down pair of
> CalComp Model 215 drives - capacity 58 Mbytes per drive!); ii) to prevent
> version skew; or iii) because it was a commercial compiler, and we had to
> protect the source (e.g. we didn't have the source to the 8080 compiler, only
> the object modules), I have no idea.
> 
> 
>     > Anyway the MIT RTS folks made hardware and PCC back ends for the 68K,
>     > Z8000 and 8086. I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt who
>     > sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K assembler.
> 
> There is an 'a86' directory on CSR, but it too is empty, except for a 'grab'
> command file. That contains only:
> 
>   tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<novick>$1"
> 
> I have no memory of who 'novick' might have been. A Web search for 'novick
> mit lcs' didn' turn anything up. (I wonder if it might have been Carol
> Novitsky; she was in our group at LCS, and I have a vague memory of her being
> associated with the networking software for micro-computers project.)
> 
> Anyway, it probably doesn't matter; the c86 'grab' referred to Wayne, but he
> didn't write c86; 'novick' might not have written a86.
> 
> Something else to ask Romkey and Bridgham about.
> 
> 	  Noel

"a version of the portable C Compiler that was modified by Chris Terman
to produce code for an 8086 microprocessor was ported from the RTS VAX/780
to the CSR PDP-11/45."
https://people.csail.mit.edu/saltzer/Multics/MHP-Saltzer-060508/bookcases/RFCs/csr-rfc-225.pdf

"If you think that you need the source code, you should realize that a
prerequisite to compiling the PC/IP programs is that you must have
imported Chris Terman's 8086 version of the UNIX Portable C compiler and
associated loader and assember systems. That importation in turn requires
a UNIX system, a current UNIX license, and negotiation with Chris Terman."
https://web.mit.edu/saltzer/www/publications/pcmemo.pdf

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP (was: Any Interdata war stories?)

[Clem Cole]

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So did Chris compiler go back to the Nu project?   And thank you to Al for
the Trix sources. As I said.  It was national 16032 not z8000.


FYI I had the whitesmith compiler at one point also. It generated code for
a funky assembler called “anat” for “a natural assembler” which PJ conjured
up for writing the compiler. It was was sort of a mix between an IL and
8080 assembler if my memory is correct.    I’d love to see that
distribution both the doc and the compiler again to May with on SIMH.  I
suspect I might appreciate it more than I did in those days.  I hated it
then but as I learned more about compilers and architectures PJ might have
been on to something.

Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual


On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 10:07 AM Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 09:11:35AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >     > From: Clem Cole
> >
> >     > Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine. John
> Romkey
> >     > may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP
> >
> > I decided to poke around in the 'MIT-CSR' dump, since that was the
> machine
> > the PC/IP project started on, to see what I could find. Hoo boy! What an
> > adventure!
> >
> > In the PC/IP area, I found a 'c86' directory - but it was almost empty.
> It
> > did have a shell file, 'grab', which contained:
> >
> >   tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<Wayne>$1"
> >
> > and a 'graball' file which called 'grab' for the list of compiler source
> > files. ('xx' was MIT-XX, the TOPS-20 main time-sharing machint of LCS.)
> >
> > So I did a Web search for Wayne Gramlich (with whom I hadn't
> communicated in
> > many decades), and he popped right up. (Amazing thing, this Internet
> thingy.
> > Who'd have ever thought, back in the day, that it would turn into what it
> > did? Well, probably John Brunner, whom I (sadly) never met, who was there
> > before any of us.)
> >
> > I took a chance, and called his number, and he was there, and we had a
> long
> > chat. He absolutely didn't do it, although he wrote the loader the
> project
> > used ('l68', the source for which I did find.) He's virtually certain
> Romkey
> > didn't (which would have been my guess too; Romkey was like a sophmore
> when
> > the project started). His best (_very_ faded) memory was that they
> started off
> > with a commercial compiler. (But see below.)
> >
> > That leaves several mysteries. 1) Why would a commercial compiler not
> come
> > with a linker? 2) Why did people who wanted to work with the PC/IP source
> > need a Bell license?
> >
> >
> > I did some more poking, and the list of files for the 86 compiler, from
> > 'graball':
> >
> >   trees.c optim.c pftn.c code.c local.c scan.c xdefs.c
> >   table.c reader.c local2.c order.c match.c allo.c comm1.c
> >   manifest mfile1 common macdefs mfile2 mac2defs
> >
> > matched the file names from 'pcc', as given in "A Tour Through the
> Portable C
> > Compiler":
> >
> >   https://maibriz.de/unix/ultrix/_root/porttour.pdf
> >
> > (in section "The Source Files"). So whether the 86 compiler was done at
> MIT
> > (by someone in RTS), or at a company, it was definitely a 'pcc'
> descendant.
> >
> > (Possibly adding to the confusion, we had some other C compilers for
> various
> > ISA's in that project [building networking software for various
> > micro-computers], including an 8080 C compiler from Whitesmiths, Ltd,
> which I
> > have also found. It's possible that Wayne's vague memory of a commercial
> > compiler is of that one?)
> >
> > I really should reach out to Romkey and Bridgham, to see what they
> remember.
> > Later today.
> >
> > Whether the main motivation for keeping the compiler source on XX was i)
> > because disk space was short on CSR (we had only a hand-me-down pair of
> > CalComp Model 215 drives - capacity 58 Mbytes per drive!); ii) to prevent
> > version skew; or iii) because it was a commercial compiler, and we had to
> > protect the source (e.g. we didn't have the source to the 8080 compiler,
> only
> > the object modules), I have no idea.
> >
> >
> >     > Anyway the MIT RTS folks made hardware and PCC back ends for the
> 68K,
> >     > Z8000 and 8086. I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt
> who
> >     > sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K
> assembler.
> >
> > There is an 'a86' directory on CSR, but it too is empty, except for a
> 'grab'
> > command file. That contains only:
> >
> >   tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<novick>$1"
> >
> > I have no memory of who 'novick' might have been. A Web search for
> 'novick
> > mit lcs' didn' turn anything up. (I wonder if it might have been Carol
> > Novitsky; she was in our group at LCS, and I have a vague memory of her
> being
> > associated with the networking software for micro-computers project.)
> >
> > Anyway, it probably doesn't matter; the c86 'grab' referred to Wayne,
> but he
> > didn't write c86; 'novick' might not have written a86.
> >
> > Something else to ask Romkey and Bridgham about.
> >
> >         Noel
>
> "a version of the portable C Compiler that was modified by Chris Terman
> to produce code for an 8086 microprocessor was ported from the RTS VAX/780
> to the CSR PDP-11/45."
>
> https://people.csail.mit.edu/saltzer/Multics/MHP-Saltzer-060508/bookcases/RFCs/csr-rfc-225.pdf
>
> "If you think that you need the source code, you should realize that a
> prerequisite to compiling the PC/IP programs is that you must have
> imported Chris Terman's 8086 version of the UNIX Portable C compiler and
> associated loader and assember systems. That importation in turn requires
> a UNIX system, a current UNIX license, and negotiation with Chris Terman."
> https://web.mit.edu/saltzer/www/publications/pcmemo.pdf
>

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[TUHS] Re: PC/IP (was: Any Interdata war stories?)

[Jonathan Gray]

Chris was part of the Nu project.

"Was a principal developer of the NuMachine"

"developed a family of portable C compilers for the (then) newly
available microprocessors. These compilers were widely distributed as
the first C implementations for the x86 and 68K processors."

https://people.csail.mit.edu/cjt/resume.html

On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 10:36:01PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> So did Chris compiler go back to the Nu project?   And thank you to Al for
> the Trix sources. As I said.  It was national 16032 not z8000.
> 
> 
> FYI I had the whitesmith compiler at one point also. It generated code for
> a funky assembler called “anat” for “a natural assembler” which PJ conjured
> up for writing the compiler. It was was sort of a mix between an IL and
> 8080 assembler if my memory is correct.    I’d love to see that
> distribution both the doc and the compiler again to May with on SIMH.  I
> suspect I might appreciate it more than I did in those days.  I hated it
> then but as I learned more about compilers and architectures PJ might have
> been on to something.
> 
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 10:07 AM Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 09:11:35AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> > >     > From: Clem Cole
> > >
> > >     > Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine. John
> > Romkey
> > >     > may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP
> > >
> > > I decided to poke around in the 'MIT-CSR' dump, since that was the
> > machine
> > > the PC/IP project started on, to see what I could find. Hoo boy! What an
> > > adventure!
> > >
> > > In the PC/IP area, I found a 'c86' directory - but it was almost empty.
> > It
> > > did have a shell file, 'grab', which contained:
> > >
> > >   tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<Wayne>$1"
> > >
> > > and a 'graball' file which called 'grab' for the list of compiler source
> > > files. ('xx' was MIT-XX, the TOPS-20 main time-sharing machint of LCS.)
> > >
> > > So I did a Web search for Wayne Gramlich (with whom I hadn't
> > communicated in
> > > many decades), and he popped right up. (Amazing thing, this Internet
> > thingy.
> > > Who'd have ever thought, back in the day, that it would turn into what it
> > > did? Well, probably John Brunner, whom I (sadly) never met, who was there
> > > before any of us.)
> > >
> > > I took a chance, and called his number, and he was there, and we had a
> > long
> > > chat. He absolutely didn't do it, although he wrote the loader the
> > project
> > > used ('l68', the source for which I did find.) He's virtually certain
> > Romkey
> > > didn't (which would have been my guess too; Romkey was like a sophmore
> > when
> > > the project started). His best (_very_ faded) memory was that they
> > started off
> > > with a commercial compiler. (But see below.)
> > >
> > > That leaves several mysteries. 1) Why would a commercial compiler not
> > come
> > > with a linker? 2) Why did people who wanted to work with the PC/IP source
> > > need a Bell license?
> > >
> > >
> > > I did some more poking, and the list of files for the 86 compiler, from
> > > 'graball':
> > >
> > >   trees.c optim.c pftn.c code.c local.c scan.c xdefs.c
> > >   table.c reader.c local2.c order.c match.c allo.c comm1.c
> > >   manifest mfile1 common macdefs mfile2 mac2defs
> > >
> > > matched the file names from 'pcc', as given in "A Tour Through the
> > Portable C
> > > Compiler":
> > >
> > >   https://maibriz.de/unix/ultrix/_root/porttour.pdf
> > >
> > > (in section "The Source Files"). So whether the 86 compiler was done at
> > MIT
> > > (by someone in RTS), or at a company, it was definitely a 'pcc'
> > descendant.
> > >
> > > (Possibly adding to the confusion, we had some other C compilers for
> > various
> > > ISA's in that project [building networking software for various
> > > micro-computers], including an 8080 C compiler from Whitesmiths, Ltd,
> > which I
> > > have also found. It's possible that Wayne's vague memory of a commercial
> > > compiler is of that one?)
> > >
> > > I really should reach out to Romkey and Bridgham, to see what they
> > remember.
> > > Later today.
> > >
> > > Whether the main motivation for keeping the compiler source on XX was i)
> > > because disk space was short on CSR (we had only a hand-me-down pair of
> > > CalComp Model 215 drives - capacity 58 Mbytes per drive!); ii) to prevent
> > > version skew; or iii) because it was a commercial compiler, and we had to
> > > protect the source (e.g. we didn't have the source to the 8080 compiler,
> > only
> > > the object modules), I have no idea.
> > >
> > >
> > >     > Anyway the MIT RTS folks made hardware and PCC back ends for the
> > 68K,
> > >     > Z8000 and 8086. I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt
> > who
> > >     > sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K
> > assembler.
> > >
> > > There is an 'a86' directory on CSR, but it too is empty, except for a
> > 'grab'
> > > command file. That contains only:
> > >
> > >   tftp -g $1 xx "PS:<novick>$1"
> > >
> > > I have no memory of who 'novick' might have been. A Web search for
> > 'novick
> > > mit lcs' didn' turn anything up. (I wonder if it might have been Carol
> > > Novitsky; she was in our group at LCS, and I have a vague memory of her
> > being
> > > associated with the networking software for micro-computers project.)
> > >
> > > Anyway, it probably doesn't matter; the c86 'grab' referred to Wayne,
> > but he
> > > didn't write c86; 'novick' might not have written a86.
> > >
> > > Something else to ask Romkey and Bridgham about.
> > >
> > >         Noel
> >
> > "a version of the portable C Compiler that was modified by Chris Terman
> > to produce code for an 8086 microprocessor was ported from the RTS VAX/780
> > to the CSR PDP-11/45."
> >
> > https://people.csail.mit.edu/saltzer/Multics/MHP-Saltzer-060508/bookcases/RFCs/csr-rfc-225.pdf
> >
> > "If you think that you need the source code, you should realize that a
> > prerequisite to compiling the PC/IP programs is that you must have
> > imported Chris Terman's 8086 version of the UNIX Portable C compiler and
> > associated loader and assember systems. That importation in turn requires
> > a UNIX system, a current UNIX license, and negotiation with Chris Terman."
> > https://web.mit.edu/saltzer/www/publications/pcmemo.pdf
> >

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP (was: Any Interdata war stories?)

[Al Kossow]

On 4/30/25 8:38 PM, Jonathan Gray wrote:
> Chris was part of the Nu project.
> 
> "Was a principal developer of the NuMachine"
> 
> "developed a family of portable C compilers for the (then) newly
> available microprocessors. These compilers were widely distributed as
> the first C implementations for the x86 and 68K processors."
> 
> https://people.csail.mit.edu/cjt/resume.html

I found most of the yearly LCS reports have been digitized to DTIC
which answered a bunch of my questions about who was doing what at
that time

I've archived them at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/lcs/progress_reports

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Tom Teixeira]

On 5/1/25 12:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 4/30/25 8:38 PM, Jonathan Gray wrote:
>> Chris was part of the Nu project.
>>
>> "Was a principal developer of the NuMachine"
>>
>> "developed a family of portable C compilers for the (then) newly
>> available microprocessors. These compilers were widely distributed as
>> the first C implementations for the x86 and 68K processors."
>>
>> https://people.csail.mit.edu/cjt/resume.html
>
> I found most of the yearly LCS reports have been digitized to DTIC
> which answered a bunch of my questions about who was doing what at
> that time
>
> I've archived them at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/lcs/progress_reports
>
>
>
Some background, though the MIT LCS progress reports should cover much 
of this. I won't attempt to put any dates.

Chris Terman was one of the graduate students in the RTS group. Since 
VT-52 terminals were relatively scarce, he designed and built his own 
with a larger screen - something like 40 lines by maybe 120 or 132 
characters, called the "Termanal". I don't remember if it used an 8080 
to handle the control sequences in the data stream or something else.

He then got interested in designing a terminal that could display bit 
map graphics, to be comparable to the graphics used on the Lisp Machines 
just being built by the MIT-AI lab. I had stumbled across one of the LCS 
progress reports that credits Professor Steve Ward and one of the 
undergraduate staff, Rae McClellan in assisting the design of this bit 
graph which was named the "Nu Terminal" (I don't think it was the "Nu 
Termanal"). This used an 8086. A couple of these were built. One of the 
undergraduate students, Jon Sieber, had been a member of an Explorer 
Post in Murray Hill where Dennis Ritchie was the advisor. Jon would 
regularly bring UNIX tapes from the Research Lab and included things 
like early versions of the Portable C Compiler and the Circuit Design 
Aids. Chris used the Circuit Design Aids to design wire-wrap boards for 
the Nu Terminal and the RTS lab got a semi-automatic wire wrap machine. 
Some students and staff took turns doing the actual wire wrapping. My 
contribution was writing some simple software that simulated a paper 
tape reader for the wire wrap machine.

An undergraduate student, Mike Patrick, did his bachelor's thesis 
writing a table driven assembler and constructed tables for the 8086 and 
I think an 8080. Later there were drivers for the Zylog Z8000, the 
National Semiconductor NS16000 and the Motorola 68000. I contributed a 
small bit of code for doing optimal choice of short vs long branches (to 
branch to an address more than +/- 127 bytes, you had to branch around a 
longer jump instruction).

Chris Terman did the work of modifying the Portable C Compiler to 
generate code for the 8086, the Z8000, NS16000 and MC68000. I think we 
may have built one machine with the Z8000, but quickly settled on using 
the MC68000, primarily because of the 32-bit support (one progress 
report says that Zenith was supposed to build multiple Z8000 based 
machines, but I don't remember those. The NS16000 had better memory 
management, but I don't think we ever actually received any CPU chips.

Anyway, these compilers were what was distributed, and the MC68000 
compiler in particular was used by almost all the companies that came 
out the MC68000-based Unix machines. Apollo was a notable exception, but 
Apollo wrote their own operating system from scratch rather than Unix. 
Side note: Bill Poduska came to visit Steve Ward and before the visit 
Steve was all excited, but was disappointed that Bill was not going to 
use Unix.

Before the RTS group used Unix, they had written a small timesharing 
system for the PDP-11/45 that was used in the 6.031 introductory 
computer science course taught by Mike Dertouzos. Chris was involved in 
maintaining that, though I think Steve Ward was probably the main 
implementor. Chris had also spent too many hours changing address 
jumpers on Unibus and other controllers as well as tweaking Unix mkconf 
files, and thought that while the 4BSD autoconfiguration was an 
improvement, there should be a better way. Chris and Steve designed the 
Nu bus, and the Nu Bus was used in the MC68000 boards. Eventually it was 
picked up by Apple.

Chris was one of many students who took the Mead/Conway LSI design 
course and ended up abandoning his research on portable compilers in 
favor of simulating LSI designs. He was also a co-founder of Symbolics 
and designed the controller for their laser printer before returning to 
MIT as a Lecturer and sponsored research staff.

There were also proposed follow-on software projects related to the Nu 
terminal. One was Trix. Steve Ward said he didn't know what an "ics" 
was, but Multics clearly had too many, and Unix had too few, hence Trix. 
Jack Test was hired to do a lot of the development. Wikipedia has a 
reasonable summary of Trix, as far as I remember, but I had left RTS to 
join Masscomp in late 1981/early 1982, and I know Jack Test was an early 
employee of Alliant Computer so he left Trix probably in 1982.

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Clem Cole]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6560 bytes --]

Thank you, Tom, for the definitive answers to much of this.  I remembered
that the Z8000 was mixed up in that mess, but it was missing from Al's Trix
tape.  Do you know if a Z8000 back end or set of support tools was ever
built, and if so, does anyone know if they survived?  It does look like Al
has 8086 [Terman compiler].  68K (of a few flavors) and an NS16032
(author's unknown).  One of the tools you mentioned from MIT seems to have
survived, although Dennis and I saved the official UNIX Circuit Design
System release in the mid-1990s. Warren has had that TUHS archives ever
since, but I'm not I ever saw you tools other than things like you 68K
assembler, and I guess is was our fiiend Wayne that wrote the linker (which
until this thread I did not now).

BTW: Again, it proves how interwoven the people and tech (i.e., open source
culture) were in the 1970s; i.e., it's not a new thing.  The PDPs were
running the Stanford Circuit Design System (SUDS) and the 11's often
at USCD.  The people came and went.   For instance,the former Wayne was a
year ahead of me at CMU before he headed to MIT for a Master's and PhD,
ᐧ

On Fri, May 2, 2025 at 10:57 AM Tom Teixeira <tjteixeira@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> On 5/1/25 12:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > On 4/30/25 8:38 PM, Jonathan Gray wrote:
> >> Chris was part of the Nu project.
> >>
> >> "Was a principal developer of the NuMachine"
> >>
> >> "developed a family of portable C compilers for the (then) newly
> >> available microprocessors. These compilers were widely distributed as
> >> the first C implementations for the x86 and 68K processors."
> >>
> >> https://people.csail.mit.edu/cjt/resume.html
> >
> > I found most of the yearly LCS reports have been digitized to DTIC
> > which answered a bunch of my questions about who was doing what at
> > that time
> >
> > I've archived them at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/lcs/progress_reports
> >
> >
> >
> Some background, though the MIT LCS progress reports should cover much
> of this. I won't attempt to put any dates.
>
> Chris Terman was one of the graduate students in the RTS group. Since
> VT-52 terminals were relatively scarce, he designed and built his own
> with a larger screen - something like 40 lines by maybe 120 or 132
> characters, called the "Termanal". I don't remember if it used an 8080
> to handle the control sequences in the data stream or something else.
>
> He then got interested in designing a terminal that could display bit
> map graphics, to be comparable to the graphics used on the Lisp Machines
> just being built by the MIT-AI lab. I had stumbled across one of the LCS
> progress reports that credits Professor Steve Ward and one of the
> undergraduate staff, Rae McClellan in assisting the design of this bit
> graph which was named the "Nu Terminal" (I don't think it was the "Nu
> Termanal"). This used an 8086. A couple of these were built. One of the
> undergraduate students, Jon Sieber, had been a member of an Explorer
> Post in Murray Hill where Dennis Ritchie was the advisor. Jon would
> regularly bring UNIX tapes from the Research Lab and included things
> like early versions of the Portable C Compiler and the Circuit Design
> Aids. Chris used the Circuit Design Aids to design wire-wrap boards for
> the Nu Terminal and the RTS lab got a semi-automatic wire wrap machine.
> Some students and staff took turns doing the actual wire wrapping. My
> contribution was writing some simple software that simulated a paper
> tape reader for the wire wrap machine.
>
> An undergraduate student, Mike Patrick, did his bachelor's thesis
> writing a table driven assembler and constructed tables for the 8086 and
> I think an 8080. Later there were drivers for the Zylog Z8000, the
> National Semiconductor NS16000 and the Motorola 68000. I contributed a
> small bit of code for doing optimal choice of short vs long branches (to
> branch to an address more than +/- 127 bytes, you had to branch around a
> longer jump instruction).
>
> Chris Terman did the work of modifying the Portable C Compiler to
> generate code for the 8086, the Z8000, NS16000 and MC68000. I think we
> may have built one machine with the Z8000, but quickly settled on using
> the MC68000, primarily because of the 32-bit support (one progress
> report says that Zenith was supposed to build multiple Z8000 based
> machines, but I don't remember those. The NS16000 had better memory
> management, but I don't think we ever actually received any CPU chips.
>
> Anyway, these compilers were what was distributed, and the MC68000
> compiler in particular was used by almost all the companies that came
> out the MC68000-based Unix machines. Apollo was a notable exception, but
> Apollo wrote their own operating system from scratch rather than Unix.
> Side note: Bill Poduska came to visit Steve Ward and before the visit
> Steve was all excited, but was disappointed that Bill was not going to
> use Unix.
>
> Before the RTS group used Unix, they had written a small timesharing
> system for the PDP-11/45 that was used in the 6.031 introductory
> computer science course taught by Mike Dertouzos. Chris was involved in
> maintaining that, though I think Steve Ward was probably the main
> implementor. Chris had also spent too many hours changing address
> jumpers on Unibus and other controllers as well as tweaking Unix mkconf
> files, and thought that while the 4BSD autoconfiguration was an
> improvement, there should be a better way. Chris and Steve designed the
> Nu bus, and the Nu Bus was used in the MC68000 boards. Eventually it was
> picked up by Apple.
>
> Chris was one of many students who took the Mead/Conway LSI design
> course and ended up abandoning his research on portable compilers in
> favor of simulating LSI designs. He was also a co-founder of Symbolics
> and designed the controller for their laser printer before returning to
> MIT as a Lecturer and sponsored research staff.
>
> There were also proposed follow-on software projects related to the Nu
> terminal. One was Trix. Steve Ward said he didn't know what an "ics"
> was, but Multics clearly had too many, and Unix had too few, hence Trix.
> Jack Test was hired to do a lot of the development. Wikipedia has a
> reasonable summary of Trix, as far as I remember, but I had left RTS to
> join Masscomp in late 1981/early 1982, and I know Jack Test was an early
> employee of Alliant Computer so he left Trix probably in 1982.
>
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Al Kossow]

On 5/2/25 8:15 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Thank you, Tom, for the definitive answers to much of this. 

This is a huge help to me. I came to Apple just before the Mac II was released and know
all of the people that were involved with designing our PC version of Nubus. One of the
people was Tony Masterson who came to Apple from TI, and I think I remember him telling
me he was a MIT grad student. I've  traced the path from Western Digital to TI for Nubus
George White seems to be the MIT - Western Digital connection.
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/nubus/White_-_Nubus_Computer_Design_19840615.pdf

Getting back to Unix, TI used Nubus to build the Explorer Lisp machines, with roots
back to the MIT CADR based on the Nu Machine (aka TI 1500 Unix system).  HP bought
the 1500 product line, which was then EOL'ed.

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Jonathan Gray]

On Fri, May 02, 2025 at 08:28:03AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 5/2/25 8:15 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Thank you, Tom, for the definitive answers to much of this.
> 
> This is a huge help to me. I came to Apple just before the Mac II was released and know
> all of the people that were involved with designing our PC version of Nubus. One of the
> people was Tony Masterson who came to Apple from TI, and I think I remember him telling
> me he was a MIT grad student. I've  traced the path from Western Digital to TI for Nubus
> George White seems to be the MIT - Western Digital connection.
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/nubus/White_-_Nubus_Computer_Design_19840615.pdf

James Gula was another person who moved from MIT to WD to TI.

"Jim Gula has left the LCS staff to join WD; while we regret losing him,
we feel that he will serve important roles both in the MIT/WD interface
and in making the Nu into a successful product."

LCS Progress Report 18, July 1980 - June 1981, p 212

"In December, it was concluded that the research interests of the TRIX
project were best served by a re-engineering of its internal structure
rather than by polishing of the existing implementation. In order to
reconcile this plan with the need for a viable Nu programming
environment for other projects, Version 7 UNIX was ported to the Nu
during the Spring by Gula, Sieber, Terman, and Test."

LCS Progress Report 18, July 1980 - June 1981, p 213

"John Seamons of Lucasfilm brought up Jim Gula's MIT Nu Unix on the Sun.
We have an Ethernet based version of this Unix running at Stanford"
Vaughan Pratt on fa.works, Jan 1982
https://groups.google.com/g/fa.works/c/WHpSvlbG0A8/m/IUdSUIwJqAgJ
https://www.saildart.org/WORKS.MSG[UP,DOC]28

James Gula on LinkedIn:

Engineering Manager, Texas Instruments, 1983 - 1986
Engineering manager for the Nu Machine Project

Software Engineering Manager, Western Digital, 1981 - 1983
Managed the UNIX port to the Nu Machine project

Technical Staff, MIT LCS, 1979 - 1981
Port of UNIX to the Nu Machine and related software.

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Tom Teixeira]

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On 5/2/25 11:15 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Thank you, Tom, for the definitive answers to much of this.  I 
> remembered that the Z8000 was mixed up in that mess, but it was 
> missing from Al's Trix tape.  Do you know if a Z8000 back end or set 
> of support tools was ever built, and if so, does anyone know if they 
> survived?  It does look like Al has 8086 [Terman compiler].  68K (of a 
> few flavors) and an NS16032 (author's unknown).  One of the tools you 
> mentioned from MIT seems to have survived, although Dennis and I saved 
> the official UNIX Circuit Design System release in the 
> mid-1990s. Warren has had that TUHS archives ever since, but I'm not I 
> ever saw you tools other than things like you 68K assembler, and I 
> guess is was our fiiend Wayne that wrote the linker (which until this 
> thread I did not now).
>
> BTW: Again, it proves how interwoven the people and tech (i.e., open 
> source culture) were in the 1970s; i.e., it's not a new thing.  The 
> PDPs were running the Stanford Circuit Design System (SUDS) and the 
> 11's often at USCD.  The people came and went.   For instance,the 
> former Wayne was a year ahead of me at CMU before he headed to MIT for 
> a Master's and PhD,
> ᐧ
>
>
I'm pretty sure a Z8000 back end was produced because I remember that we 
built at least one Z8000 board. One of the LCS progress reports mentions 
that Zenith had committed to build some Z8000 systems, back when "office 
automation" was a thing. However, I have no idea what happened to the tools.

I don't remember anyone but Chris producing back ends, but it's possible 
someone else did the NS16032. But I don't remember anything else about 
the NS16000 systems.

The tools Chris and others produced in support of the Mead/Conway LSI 
course were also widely distributed, but I'm not sure what the 
mechanism. Since those were completely unencumbered by Unix, there was 
probably less formality, but I expect the MIT license was included.

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[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Al Kossow]

> "John Seamons of Lucasfilm brought up Jim Gula's MIT Nu Unix on the Sun.
> We have an Ethernet based version of this Unix running at Stanford"
> Vaughan Pratt on fa.works, Jan 1982
> https://groups.google.com/g/fa.works/c/WHpSvlbG0A8/m/IUdSUIwJqAgJ
> https://www.saildart.org/WORKS.MSG[UP,DOC]28

Since I've never seen the design for the original Nu 68K I wonder if
that was where the "SUN" segment/page MMU came from, since it looked
similar to what was in the CADR, and if the sniffing of the stack to
see if it needed to grow on function calls came from the Terman compiler.

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Clem Cole]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1604 bytes --]

There were a couple of solutions, but they were all similar, which might be
challenging to figure out now. The first gen of the the micros needed an
external MMU and by the time of the Z8000/68K family/NS16032/and even
the Intel devices were already several different MMU from mini's and
mainframes which the different microprocessor MMU swiped different ideas
and added a few other there own (particular to them).  I think poking
around the Asilimor Workshop Archives is likely to be the most fruitful.  I
would love to find a copy of Forest Basket's paper where he proposed using
2 68000's as 'executor' and 'fixer' as Apollo and Masscomp would do [many
of those were from Asilomar - Forest's was].  Yale Patt and a few of his
students had a few MMU papers for some of the chips around that time,
IIRC.   Sadly, my copies of that stuff from a few of those Asilomar
conferences were lost.
ᐧ

On Sat, May 3, 2025 at 2:29 PM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

>
> > "John Seamons of Lucasfilm brought up Jim Gula's MIT Nu Unix on the Sun.
> > We have an Ethernet based version of this Unix running at Stanford"
> > Vaughan Pratt on fa.works, Jan 1982
> > https://groups.google.com/g/fa.works/c/WHpSvlbG0A8/m/IUdSUIwJqAgJ
> > https://www.saildart.org/WORKS.MSG[UP,DOC]28
>
> Since I've never seen the design for the original Nu 68K I wonder if
> that was where the "SUN" segment/page MMU came from, since it looked
> similar to what was in the CADR, and if the sniffing of the stack to
> see if it needed to grow on function calls came from the Terman compiler.
>
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Al Kossow]

On 5/3/25 12:01 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> There were a couple of solutions, but they were all similar, which might be challenging to figure out now. The first gen of the the micros 
> needed an external MMU and by the time of the Z8000/68K family/NS16032/and even the Intel devices were already several different MMU from 
> mini's and mainframes which the different microprocessor MMU swiped different ideas and added a few other there own (particular to them).  I 
> think poking around the Asilimor Workshop Archives is likely to be the most fruitful.  I would love to find a copy of Forest Basket's paper 
> where he proposed using 2 68000's as 'executor' and 'fixer' as Apollo and Masscomp would do [many of those were from Asilomar - Forest's 
> was].  Yale Patt and a few of his students had a few MMU papers for some of the chips around that time, IIRC.   Sadly, my copies of that 
> stuff from a few of those Asilomar conferences were lost.
> 

I hope the scanning and preservation efforts of the past 20 years continues.
As a naive engineer coming to the Valley in 1984 with my only prior exposure
being Usenet, the degree of tribal knowledge and interconnectedness took
a while to realize. I'm still learning things, for example what is coming
to light here, even after working at the Computer History Museum for almost
20 years now along with realizing how much of Valley folklore we don't have
in our archives.

[TUHS] Re: PC/IP

[Jonathan Gray]

On Sat, May 03, 2025 at 11:29:14AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> > "John Seamons of Lucasfilm brought up Jim Gula's MIT Nu Unix on the Sun.
> > We have an Ethernet based version of this Unix running at Stanford"
> > Vaughan Pratt on fa.works, Jan 1982
> > https://groups.google.com/g/fa.works/c/WHpSvlbG0A8/m/IUdSUIwJqAgJ
> > https://www.saildart.org/WORKS.MSG[UP,DOC]28
> 
> Since I've never seen the design for the original Nu 68K I wonder if
> that was where the "SUN" segment/page MMU came from, since it looked
> similar to what was in the CADR, and if the sniffing of the stack to
> see if it needed to grow on function calls came from the Terman compiler.

Perhaps the Nu paper mentions an MMU?
Referenced by the SUN documents, but not available online.
S. A. Ward and C. J. Terman, "An approach to personal computing"
Proceedings of COMPCON, IEEE, February 1980, pp. 460-465.

IEEE doesn't have it online at
https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/1000109
The CHM has the proceedings:
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102713995
CompCon80; VLSI: New Architectural Horizons; 1980.

--

"The one question mark for the CPU board design was the memory
management unit, to which Andy, Forest (who sent us a design while at
PARC), and I all made significant contributions."
Vaughan Pratt, in:

From the Valley of Heart's Delight to the Silicon Valley:
A Study of Stanford University's Role in the Transformation
Appendix A: The Founding of Sun Microsystems
http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/cstr/reports/csl/tr/97/713/CSL-TR-97-713.ps

"So we switched to the 68000. I think we ended up with a 6810 as the
original processor. I designed a memory-mapping system for that
processor, which barely had the capabilities to do memory mapping. The
original SUN workstation had a really fascinating memory mapping system.
I was a little annoyed with Andy, because years later I discovered that
he had patented that memory mapping system."
Oral History of Forest Baskett, p 13
https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2017/12/102717243-05-01-acc.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4527232A/en
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4550368A/en

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Tom Lyon]

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I found this USENIX paper from Steve Johnson that has a lot of detail about
the
Interdata port (postscript format):

"C and the AT&T Unix Port--A Personal History"
https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedings/usenix98/invited_talks/johnson.ps


On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 11:55 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:

> > From: Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com>
> >
> > I was pleased to learn that the first port of S to UNIX was on the
> > Interdata 8/32, which I had my part in enabling.
>
> I would love to hear more about the Interdata port and what
> happened with it afterwards. Interdata seems to have disappeared
> into the dustbin of history.  And Unix on it apparently never
> got out of Bell Labs; I don't think the code for it is in the
> TUHS archives.
>
> Was the Interdata system in use at Bell Labs for actual work once
> the port was complete?
>
> ISTR there was a meeting with Interdata about changes in the architecture
> that Bell Labs wanted, that Interdata didn't want to make. What
> was the full story?
>
> Any other info would be welcome.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold
>

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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Greg A. Woods]

At Tue, 29 Apr 2025 00:55:05 -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
Subject: [TUHS] Any Interdata war stories?
> 
> > From: Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com>
> >
> > I was pleased to learn that the first port of S to UNIX was on the
> > Interdata 8/32, which I had my part in enabling.
> 
> I would love to hear more about the Interdata port and what
> happened with it afterwards. Interdata seems to have disappeared
> into the dustbin of history.  And Unix on it apparently never
> got out of Bell Labs;

In about 1981 or 1982 the chemistry (IIRC) department at University of
Calgary had an Interdata 8/32 that was, at least for some time around
then, running Unix.  I remember poking around on it briefly, but I don't
remember much more than that about it.

-- 
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods@acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods@robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods@avoncote.ca>

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Arnold Robbins

    > CCI made the Tahoe that 4.4 ran on, but I'm guessing it's a different
    > architecture than the Interdata?

I think so. Almost all documentation on the Tahoe has been lost in the mists
of time (if ANYONE retains ANY hardcopies of ANY hardware documentation for
the Tahoe, PLEASE let me know), but I recently managed to work out a bit
about it from the instruction decoding/printing routines in the debuggers
from 4.3 BSD Tahoe:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/Power_6/32

and it seems to be fairly different from the Interdata:

  http://bitsavers.org/pdf/interdata/32bit/29-365R01_32BitRefMan_Jun74.pdf

Also, 'CCI' is 'Computer Consoles Incorporated', not "Concurrent Computer
Corp".

	Noel

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Bakul Shah via TUHS]

On Apr 30, 2025, at 12:35 AM, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote:
> 
> On Apr 30, 2025, at 12:21 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>> 
>> Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Two different ports.
>>> TWG's port was written at the University of Wollongong, extensive
>>> documentation and SIMH emulation survives.
>> 
>> Ah! I was shown a V6 port on SIMH, but Bell Labs didn't do
>> a port of V6. This explains it.
> 
> The story of this first port (by Richard Miller) here:
> 
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Other/Interdata/uow103747.pdf

More details in Richard's invited talk @ Usenix:

https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/library/proceedings/usenix98/invited_talks/miller.ps

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Bakul Shah via TUHS]

On Apr 30, 2025, at 12:21 AM, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
> 
>> Two different ports.
>> TWG's port was written at the University of Wollongong, extensive
>> documentation and SIMH emulation survives.
> 
> Ah! I was shown a V6 port on SIMH, but Bell Labs didn't do
> a port of V6. This explains it.

The story of this first port (by Richard Miller) here:

https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Other/Interdata/uow103747.pdf

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[arnold]

Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

> Two different ports.
> TWG's port was written at the University of Wollongong, extensive
> documentation and SIMH emulation survives.

Ah! I was shown a V6 port on SIMH, but Bell Labs didn't do
a port of V6. This explains it.

> No trace of the BTL port exists that I know of
>
> Interdata was bought by Perkin-Elmer, Perkin-Elmer sold it to
> Concurrent Computer Corp.

CCI made the Tahoe that 4.4 ran on, but I'm guessing it's
a different architecture than the Interdata?

Thanks,

Arnold

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[arnold]

Thanks for this, and to everyone else who replied. I'm guessing
the hardware problems prevented the system from being used further.

Thanks,

Arnold

Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 12:55:05AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > > From: Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > I was pleased to learn that the first port of S to UNIX was on the
> > > Interdata 8/32, which I had my part in enabling.
> > 
> > I would love to hear more about the Interdata port and what
> > happened with it afterwards. Interdata seems to have disappeared
> > into the dustbin of history.  And Unix on it apparently never
> > got out of Bell Labs; I don't think the code for it is in the
> > TUHS archives.
>
> Tom described some of the C portability problems in
> Inter-UNIX Portability
>
> https://archive.org/details/CLanguagePortability_Sept77/page/n15/mode/2up
> https://akapugsblog.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/inter-unix_portability.pdf
>
> > 
> > Was the Interdata system in use at Bell Labs for actual work once
> > the port was complete?
> > 
> > ISTR there was a meeting with Interdata about changes in the architecture
> > that Bell Labs wanted, that Interdata didn't want to make. What
> > was the full story?
>
> Steve Johnson on the hardware problems
> https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/2023-August/001672.html
>
> > 
> > Any other info would be welcome.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Arnold
> > 

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Jonathan Gray]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 11:46:19AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 4/29/25 11:25 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine.  John Romkey
> > may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP, but I can
> > not claim I remember who did the 8086 backend.  IIRC Jack Test did the
> > 68K backend.  The RTS crew had the NU machine and NU bus that went with
> > it.   Very tean project Neat project.  Similar idea, in fact to what CMU
> > was doing with the Intel Mutlibus called the distributed front end (we
> > had started with LSI-11 and cost reduced it to 8086 on a Intel
> > Multibus).  Andy Bechtolsheim would take with him to Stanford and rework
> > with a 68K which became the Stanford Network Terminal - which used the
> > RTS's C compilers.   It's all very mixed up. [ Don't tell me there was
> > not an open source culture back in the old days by the way].
> > 
> > Anyway the MIT RTS foilks made hardware and PCC back ends for the 68K,
> > Z8000 and 8086.  I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt who
> > sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K
> > assembler.  IIRC they had a common linker which is was rewrite/extension
> > to the original V7 linker or maybe the 4.1 linker.
> > 
> > Anyone with a V7 license could get it.   If you had a PC license you get
> > get the source to Romkey's PCIP.   If you did not a license, you could
> > only get a binary kit.
> 
> I have an image of the "MIT Compiler Tape" with a bunch of different PCC ports from a couple of different institutions.
> 
> On the Stanford side, SUMACC was a hack of the compiler to work with the Macintosh
> I had the source for it at one point, but haven't been able to find it on any of my backups.

in the TUHS archive
Distributions/UCB/4.3BSD/new.tar.gz

contains sumacc.tar.Z which has source

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Henry Bent]

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On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 at 14:36, Chet Ramey via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:

> On 4/29/25 1:00 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> > And then they branched out, using their V6 license to do a number of
> other
> > things:
> > * Eunice for VMS (4BSD environment for VMS)
>
> "Congratulations.  You aren't running Eunice."


Perl has some good quips hidden in Configure but that was always one of my
favorites, even well before I had any real idea what Eunice was.

Personally I want a t-shirt that says "configure: error: cannot guess host
type; you must specify one" which nicely sums up my experiences with both
historic computing and my general life.

-Henry

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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Rich Salz

    > The PC/IP software from MIT included a port of the "Portable C
    > Compiler" to generate 8086-era code. It ran on a Unix machine and built
    > binaries that you downloaded to the PC. ... So you need an ATT source
    > license to get the full PCIP dev kit.

That makes sense. The 'MIT license' (about which Jerry Saltzer did a note for
the October-December 2020 issue of the 'IEEE Annals of the History of
Computing', available here:

  https://www.mit.edu/~Saltzer/publications/MITLicense.pdf

and which mentions that it was initially done for the MIT PC/IP code) only
applied to the MIT-written applications, not a 'derived work' (to use the
intellectual property law 'term of art') based on Bell code.

	Noel

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[segaloco via TUHS]

On Tuesday, April 29th, 2025 at 12:45 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the refresh -- National chip (16032), not the Z8000 but right idea.
> ᐧ
> 
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 3:07 PM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
> 
> > On 4/29/25 11:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > 
> > > I have an image of the "MIT Compiler Tape" with a bunch of different PCC ports from a couple of different institutions.
> > 
> > I forgot I put this up a while ago
> > http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape
> > 
> > I wish I had more information about what went on wrt Steve Ward's lab

Just fyi, thread from a couple years back in which Steve Johnson offered some recollections of his time involved in the Interdata 8/32 work at BTL: https://tuhs.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/tuhs@tuhs.org/thread/WH4IEMFZEZEDPG5VQHDWKTS6UTRMTRLL/

His recollections above touch on the microcode bug that prevented the Interdata port from being viable beyond porting exercises.

- Matt G.

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Clem Cole]

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Thanks for the refresh -- National chip (16032), not the Z8000 but right
idea.
ᐧ

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 3:07 PM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 4/29/25 11:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
> > I have an image of the "MIT Compiler Tape" with a bunch of different PCC
> ports from a couple of different institutions.
>
> I forgot I put this up a while ago
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape
>
> I wish I had more information about what went on wrt Steve Ward's lab
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 1:07 PM Al Kossow <aek@bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
> On 4/29/25 11:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
> > I have an image of the "MIT Compiler Tape" with a bunch of different PCC ports from a couple of different institutions.
>
> I forgot I put this up a while ago
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape
>
> I wish I had more information about what went on wrt Steve Ward's lab

I've tried building that for modern systems and the code is definitely
very K&R...
In one spot, IIRC, there's even a vax queue instruction.

Warner

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Al Kossow]

On 4/29/25 11:46 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> I have an image of the "MIT Compiler Tape" with a bunch of different PCC ports from a couple of different institutions.

I forgot I put this up a while ago
http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/trix/MIT_Compiler_Tape

I wish I had more information about what went on wrt Steve Ward's lab

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Al Kossow]

On 4/29/25 11:25 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine.  John Romkey may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP, but I 
> can not claim I remember who did the 8086 backend.  IIRC Jack Test did the 68K backend.  The RTS crew had the NU machine and NU bus that 
> went with it.   Very tean project Neat project.  Similar idea, in fact to what CMU was doing with the Intel Mutlibus called the distributed 
> front end (we had started with LSI-11 and cost reduced it to 8086 on a Intel Multibus).  Andy Bechtolsheim would take with him to Stanford 
> and rework with a 68K which became the Stanford Network Terminal - which used the RTS's C compilers.   It's all very mixed up. [ Don't tell 
> me there was not an open source culture back in the old days by the way].
> 
> Anyway the MIT RTS foilks made hardware and PCC back ends for the 68K, Z8000 and 8086.  I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt who 
> sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K assembler.  IIRC they had a common linker which is was rewrite/extension to 
> the original V7 linker or maybe the 4.1 linker.
> 
> Anyone with a V7 license could get it.   If you had a PC license you get get the source to Romkey's PCIP.   If you did not a license, you 
> could only get a binary kit.

I have an image of the "MIT Compiler Tape" with a bunch of different PCC ports from a couple of different institutions.

On the Stanford side, SUMACC was a hack of the compiler to work with the Macintosh
I had the source for it at one point, but haven't been able to find it on any of my backups.

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Warner Losh]

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On Tue, Apr 29, 2025, 12:26 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine.  John Romkey
> may have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP, but I can not
> claim I remember who did the 8086 backend.  IIRC Jack Test did the 68K
> backend.  The RTS crew had the NU machine and NU bus that went with it.
>  Very tean project Neat project.  Similar idea, in fact to what CMU was
> doing with the Intel Mutlibus called the distributed front end (we had
> started with LSI-11 and cost reduced it to 8086 on a Intel Multibus).  Andy
> Bechtolsheim would take with him to Stanford and rework with a 68K which
> became the Stanford Network Terminal - which used the RTS's C compilers.
>  It's all very mixed up. [ Don't tell me there was not an open source
> culture back in the old days by the way].
>
> Anyway the MIT RTS foilks made hardware and PCC back ends for the 68K,
> Z8000 and 8086.  I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt who
> sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K assembler.
> IIRC they had a common linker which is was rewrite/extension to the
> original V7 linker or maybe the 4.1 linker.
>
> Anyone with a V7 license could get it.   If you had a PC license you get
> get the source to Romkey's PCIP.   If you did not a license, you could only
> get a binary kit.
> ᐧ
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 1:59 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 1:00 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>>> * IP/TCP for DOS (though this was an independent thing, done at MIT,
>>> the licensing material for this product, IIRC, included some kind of
>>> unix permission that confused me at the time, but it may have just
>>> been lawyering to CYA rather than including anything).
>>>
>>
>> The PC/IP software from MIT included a port of the "Portable C Compiler"
>> to generate 8086-era code. It ran on a Unix machine and built binaries that
>> you downloaded to the PC. So you need an ATT source license to get the full
>> PCIP dev kit.
>>
>
Yea. The MIT compiler was also shipped with Venix/86

Warner

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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Chet Ramey via TUHS]

On 4/29/25 1:00 PM, Warner Losh wrote:

> And then they branched out, using their V6 license to do a number of other
> things:
> * Eunice for VMS (4BSD environment for VMS)

"Congratulations.  You aren't running Eunice."

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet@case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Clem Cole]

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Yes, that was one of the RTS compilers for the NU machine.  John Romkey may
have done it, as he was the primary person behind PCIP, but I can not claim
I remember who did the 8086 backend.  IIRC Jack Test did the 68K backend.
The RTS crew had the NU machine and NU bus that went with it.   Very tean
project Neat project.  Similar idea, in fact to what CMU was doing with the
Intel Mutlibus called the distributed front end (we had started with LSI-11
and cost reduced it to 8086 on a Intel Multibus).  Andy Bechtolsheim would
take with him to Stanford and rework with a 68K which became the
Stanford Network Terminal - which used the RTS's C compilers.   It's all
very mixed up. [ Don't tell me there was not an open source culture back in
the old days by the way].

Anyway the MIT RTS foilks made hardware and PCC back ends for the 68K,
Z8000 and 8086.  I believe that each had separate assemblers, tjt who
sometimes reads this list might know more, as he wrote the 68K assembler.
IIRC they had a common linker which is was rewrite/extension to the
original V7 linker or maybe the 4.1 linker.

Anyone with a V7 license could get it.   If you had a PC license you get
get the source to Romkey's PCIP.   If you did not a license, you could only
get a binary kit.
ᐧ

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 1:59 PM Rich Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 1:00 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>> * IP/TCP for DOS (though this was an independent thing, done at MIT,
>> the licensing material for this product, IIRC, included some kind of
>> unix permission that confused me at the time, but it may have just
>> been lawyering to CYA rather than including anything).
>>
>
> The PC/IP software from MIT included a port of the "Portable C Compiler"
> to generate 8086-era code. It ran on a Unix machine and built binaries that
> you downloaded to the PC. So you need an ATT source license to get the full
> PCIP dev kit.
>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Rich Salz]

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On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 1:00 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

> * IP/TCP for DOS (though this was an independent thing, done at MIT,
> the licensing material for this product, IIRC, included some kind of
> unix permission that confused me at the time, but it may have just
> been lawyering to CYA rather than including anything).
>

The PC/IP software from MIT included a port of the "Portable C Compiler" to
generate 8086-era code. It ran on a Unix machine and built binaries that
you downloaded to the PC. So you need an ATT source license to get the full
PCIP dev kit.

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[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Al Kossow]

On 4/29/25 10:00 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 12:55 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com>
>>>
>>> I was pleased to learn that the first port of S to UNIX was on the
>>> Interdata 8/32, which I had my part in enabling.
>>
>> I would love to hear more about the Interdata port and what
>> happened with it afterwards. Interdata seems to have disappeared
>> into the dustbin of history.  And Unix on it apparently never
>> got out of Bell Labs; I don't think the code for it is in the
>> TUHS archives.
>>

Two different ports.
TWG's port was written at the University of Wollongong, extensive
documentation and SIMH emulation survives.

No trace of the BTL port exists that I know of

Interdata was bought by Perkin-Elmer, Perkin-Elmer sold it to
Concurrent Computer Corp.

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 11:18 AM Jon Forrest <nobozo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 4/29/25 10:00 AM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
> > And then they branched out, using their V6 license to do a number of other
> > things:
> > * Eunice for VMS (4BSD environment for VMS)
>
> Minor quible - Eunice was developed by David Kashtan at SRI, but
> then maintained and marketed the The Wollongong Group.
> (I used it on VMS at UCSB in the early 1980s).

True, I mentioned it only because they used their V6 license which
had unusually favorable terms to do so... Which is an unanticipated
"long hand" of the interdata port into the late 80s and early 90s.

Warner

> Jon
>
> P.S. A non-Unix Interdata memory. At UCSB we used 3 Interdata
> machines as terminal switchers. You could connect from a terminal
> in certain terminal rooms to any of a number of computers on campus that
> had support for the switching protocol. The names of the Interdata
> machines were "huey", "duey", and "louie". There was allegedly a
> fourth machine called "kablooey" that was used as a backup.

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Jon Forrest]

On 4/29/25 10:00 AM, Warner Losh wrote:

> And then they branched out, using their V6 license to do a number of other
> things:
> * Eunice for VMS (4BSD environment for VMS)

Minor quible - Eunice was developed by David Kashtan at SRI, but
then maintained and marketed the The Wollongong Group.
(I used it on VMS at UCSB in the early 1980s).

Jon

P.S. A non-Unix Interdata memory. At UCSB we used 3 Interdata
machines as terminal switchers. You could connect from a terminal
in certain terminal rooms to any of a number of computers on campus that
had support for the switching protocol. The names of the Interdata
machines were "huey", "duey", and "louie". There was allegedly a
fourth machine called "kablooey" that was used as a backup.

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Warner Losh]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 12:55 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com>
> >
> > I was pleased to learn that the first port of S to UNIX was on the
> > Interdata 8/32, which I had my part in enabling.
>
> I would love to hear more about the Interdata port and what
> happened with it afterwards. Interdata seems to have disappeared
> into the dustbin of history.  And Unix on it apparently never
> got out of Bell Labs; I don't think the code for it is in the
> TUHS archives.
>
> Was the Interdata system in use at Bell Labs for actual work once
> the port was complete?
>
> ISTR there was a meeting with Interdata about changes in the architecture
> that Bell Labs wanted, that Interdata didn't want to make. What
> was the full story?
>
> Any other info would be welcome.

So on the marketing side, the Interdata port wound up being sold in the US
by The Wollogong Group (TWG). They marketed it to Harris computer users
more generally. Tom and Steve were frustrated that they couldn't market this
in .au so effectively sold their rights to TWG who did market it.

And then they branched out, using their V6 license to do a number of other
things:
* Eunice for VMS (4BSD environment for VMS)
* TCP/IP for VMS (the TCP. from 4.2BSD (and later 4.3BSD) ported to VMS,
as extracted from Eunice, not to be confused with TVG's Multinet).
* TCP/IP for a bunch of other System V systems (mostly 3B2*'s) as well as
HP (both HPUX and non unix systems) and a few other early odd-balls
that my memory isn't responding well to.
* Unix internals training with the Lions Book, including AT&T and Wollgong
intellectual property markings (I wish I'd tried hard to snag a copy when
I worked there: I had to settle for an Nth generation copy from a coworker).
* Some other early porting work that may have just been marketing material
to compete with Unisoft / raise funding. I just saw this stuff once at the TWG
offices and was given some hand-wavey explanation that amounted to
"don't worry about testing this"...
* IP/TCP for DOS (though this was an independent thing, done at MIT,
the licensing material for this product, IIRC, included some kind of
unix permission that confused me at the time, but it may have just
been lawyering to CYA rather than including anything).

Warner

[TUHS] Re: Any Interdata war stories?

[Jonathan Gray]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 12:55:05AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> > From: Tom Lyon <pugs78@gmail.com>
> >
> > I was pleased to learn that the first port of S to UNIX was on the
> > Interdata 8/32, which I had my part in enabling.
> 
> I would love to hear more about the Interdata port and what
> happened with it afterwards. Interdata seems to have disappeared
> into the dustbin of history.  And Unix on it apparently never
> got out of Bell Labs; I don't think the code for it is in the
> TUHS archives.

Tom described some of the C portability problems in
Inter-UNIX Portability

https://archive.org/details/CLanguagePortability_Sept77/page/n15/mode/2up
https://akapugsblog.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/inter-unix_portability.pdf

> 
> Was the Interdata system in use at Bell Labs for actual work once
> the port was complete?
> 
> ISTR there was a meeting with Interdata about changes in the architecture
> that Bell Labs wanted, that Interdata didn't want to make. What
> was the full story?

Steve Johnson on the hardware problems
https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/coff/2023-August/001672.html

> 
> Any other info would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arnold
>