* [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? @ 2020-01-18 22:48 Chris Hanson 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson 2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-01-18 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals? Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what shipped afterwards (patches etc.)? -- Chris ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-01-18 22:48 [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? Chris Hanson @ 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-05 23:29 ` Chris Hanson 2020-02-06 4:02 ` Henry Bent 2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Michael Parson @ 2020-01-18 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Sat, 18 Jan 2020, Chris Hanson wrote: > I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, > and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been > preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals? > > Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what > shipped afterwards (patches etc.)? Most of I've seen is the stuff I found while playing with Amiga UNIX, which is the stuff hosted at atariunix.com. I was able to pull the Motif (v 1.1.1) bits out of the Atari UNIX disk images and get them running on Amiga UNIX. Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability. -- Michael Parson Pflugerville, TX KF5LGQ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson @ 2020-02-05 23:29 ` Chris Hanson 2020-02-06 3:44 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-06 4:02 ` Henry Bent 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Chris Hanson @ 2020-02-05 23:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 505 bytes --] On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > > Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif > bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be > happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability. There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror) at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/ <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>. -- Chris [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1083 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-05 23:29 ` Chris Hanson @ 2020-02-06 3:44 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-06 3:54 ` Larry McVoy 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 3:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Wed, 5 Feb 2020, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > >> Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the >> pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key >> for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential >> future availability. > > There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror) > at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/ > <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>. Thank you! -- Michael Parson Pflugerville, TX KF5LGQ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 3:44 ` Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 3:54 ` Larry McVoy 2020-02-06 15:35 ` Chet Ramey 2020-02-06 15:50 ` Michael Parson 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-02-06 3:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:44:02PM -0600, Michael Parson wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2020, Chris Hanson wrote: > >On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > > > >>Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the > >>pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key > >>for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential > >>future availability. > > > >There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror) > >at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/ > ><http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>. > > Thank you! Part of me is wondering why anyone cares about Motif. My memory of that is that Xview was better and the Athena widgets were better. Athena was ugly but it worked, Xview, the X11 version of Sunview, was fantastic to program in, the argv was a set of 2 tuples, thing and value. And it looked better. I've written Xview apps and other than the Tk part of Tcl/Tk, it was the most pleasant GUI API I have used. For the record, the Tk part of Tcl/Tk is still, decades later, the best GUI interface I've ever seen. John got that right. So no offense intended, what about Motif is likeable? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 3:54 ` Larry McVoy @ 2020-02-06 15:35 ` Chet Ramey 2020-02-06 15:50 ` Michael Parson 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Chet Ramey @ 2020-02-06 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Larry McVoy, Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs On 2/5/20 10:54 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > Part of me is wondering why anyone cares about Motif. My memory of that > is that Xview was better and the Athena widgets were better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj02_UeUnGQ "A Political History of X" - Keith Packard (LCA 2020) -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet@case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 3:54 ` Larry McVoy 2020-02-06 15:35 ` Chet Ramey @ 2020-02-06 15:50 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-06 17:58 ` Arno Griffioen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 15:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On 2020-02-05 21:54, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Wed, Feb 05, 2020 at 09:44:02PM -0600, Michael Parson wrote: >> On Wed, 5 Feb 2020, Chris Hanson wrote: >> >On Jan 18, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: >> > >> >>Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the >> >>pre-OpenMotif bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key >> >>for now, I'd be happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential >> >>future availability. >> > >> >There are Motif 1.1 sources on Bitsavers (or your favorite mirror) >> >at <http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/ >> ><http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/OSF/OSF_Motif_Src_1.1.X/>>. >> >> Thank you! > > Part of me is wondering why anyone cares about Motif. My memory of > that > is that Xview was better and the Athena widgets were better. Athena > was > ugly but it worked, Xview, the X11 version of Sunview, was fantastic to > program in, the argv was a set of 2 tuples, thing and value. And it > looked better. I've written Xview apps and other than the Tk part of > Tcl/Tk, it was the most pleasant GUI API I have used. For the record, > the Tk part of Tcl/Tk is still, decades later, the best GUI interface > I've ever seen. John got that right. > > So no offense intended, what about Motif is likeable? No offense taken. It's not so much that it's "likeable", at least, any more than playing with any old software is "likeable". It only crossed my radar because someone mentioned that it was available for Atari UNIX (ASV), would those bits be able to be used on Amiga UNIX (AMIX)? I was able to pull the bits off the ASV images and get them running on AMIX, but it requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load the ASV X11 libs, so, I thought, if I could get my hands on the source, I could compile it against the AMIX supplied libs, then maybe try and get Mosaic compiled as well. -- Michael Parson Pflugerville, TX KF5LGQ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 15:50 ` Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 17:58 ` Arno Griffioen 2020-02-06 23:15 ` Michael Parson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-02-06 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 09:50:39AM -0600, Michael Parson wrote: > No offense taken. It's not so much that it's "likeable", at least, any > more than playing with any old software is "likeable". It only crossed > my radar because someone mentioned that it was available for Atari UNIX > (ASV), would those bits be able to be used on Amiga UNIX (AMIX)? I was Just nitpicking a little :) I know Amiga UNIX is often referred to as AMIX, but 'in the day' there was an actual 'AMIX' which was an CBM in-house only port of SVR3.2 to 'A2500UX' labeled machines. (basically 68020+MMU equipped boxes) These ran the internal email and file distribution network, but was never publicly released. Quite noticeable as it boots into an ASCII console with a bright orange background. Same background that some of the 68020/030 cards boot ROMs show when choosing the 'boot UNIX' option. Worked on that old platform for some time.. Part of my projects was to migrate some of the tools to the 'next version' which was.. The actual product sold as 'Amiga UNIX'. (not 'AMIX' ;) ) This was the SVR4 port in a V1 and V2 version with the latter getting a bunch of updates to streamline it on the platform. V1 was really only sold/used to launch-customers while V2 was more publicly available. (V1 was trivial to hack around the '1 user' base license with a little 'od' and binary patching ;) ) Interesting issue at the time was that, according to the internal grapevine at CBM at the time, the Amiga UNIX SVR4 was not m68k ABI compliant, so it could not run pre-packaged m68k-svr4 software that did use this interface. Reason was rumoured to be that CBM (in ther never-ending efforts to do things 'cheap') got the cheapest source license they could get for SVR4 which AFAIK was for the 3B2 or similar AT&T platform and they did not get an actual m68k source and license. Never got that really verified, but I do know that at the time the lack of support for the m68k ABI was a big hurdle for acceptance. > but it requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load the ASV X11 libs, so, I > thought, if I could get my hands on the source, I could compile it against > the AMIX supplied libs, then maybe try and get Mosaic compiled as well. The SVR4 Amiga UNIX used CDE and all bits for the X11 environment, so the binaries should all be there. No sources were available to people outside the CBM UNIX group at the headquarters at the time, but perhaps they got out onto the net when it all went down. The UNIX group inside CBM got disbanded way before they went totally out of business, so it may have well gone into the shredder at some point. Quitting the CBM-UNIX group was done very crudely I might add with some of the guys from the US being over in europe when they got told that they were fired and their company creditcards got blocked at the same time.. classy... Bye, Arno. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 17:58 ` Arno Griffioen @ 2020-02-06 23:15 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-07 11:53 ` Arno Griffioen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Michael Parson @ 2020-02-06 23:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs On Thu, 6 Feb 2020, Arno Griffioen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 09:50:39AM -0600, Michael Parson wrote: >> No offense taken. It's not so much that it's "likeable", at least, any >> more than playing with any old software is "likeable". It only crossed >> my radar because someone mentioned that it was available for Atari UNIX >> (ASV), would those bits be able to be used on Amiga UNIX (AMIX)? I was > > Just nitpicking a little :) > > I know Amiga UNIX is often referred to as AMIX, but 'in the day' there > was an actual 'AMIX' which was an CBM in-house only port of SVR3.2 to > 'A2500UX' labeled machines. (basically 68020+MMU equipped boxes) > > These ran the internal email and file distribution network, but was > never publicly released. Quite noticeable as it boots into an ASCII > console with a bright orange background. > > Same background that some of the 68020/030 cards boot ROMs show when > choosing the 'boot UNIX' option. Neat. This is the first time I've heard of this UNIX from Commodore. I'd heard of Amiga UNIX, which ran on the A3000 and A2000s with the appropriate 68020(+MMU) or 030 upgrades, and their failed CBM 900 project, which was based on the Z8001, which was reported to be a port of MWC Coherent rather than based on the AT&T code. > Worked on that old platform for some time.. Part of my projects was to > migrate some of the tools to the 'next version' which was.. > > The actual product sold as 'Amiga UNIX'. (not 'AMIX' ;) ) $ uname -a UNIX_System_V amy 4.0 2.1c 0800430 Amiga (Unlimited) m68k > This was the SVR4 port in a V1 and V2 version with the latter getting > a bunch of updates to streamline it on the platform. > > V1 was really only sold/used to launch-customers while V2 was more > publicly available. (V1 was trivial to hack around the '1 user' base > license with a little 'od' and binary patching ;) ) > > Interesting issue at the time was that, according to the internal > grapevine at CBM at the time, the Amiga UNIX SVR4 was not m68k ABI > compliant, so it could not run pre-packaged m68k-svr4 software that > did use this interface. The docs claim that there was an attempt to make it ABI compliant, but the ABI wasn't "finalized" or something, so, future compatibility was not guaranteed. > Reason was rumoured to be that CBM (in ther never-ending efforts to > do things 'cheap') got the cheapest source license they could get for > SVR4 which AFAIK was for the 3B2 or similar AT&T platform and they did > not get an actual m68k source and license. > > Never got that really verified, but I do know that at the time the > lack of support for the m68k ABI was a big hurdle for acceptance. *shrug* Atari UNIX and Amiga UNIX seem close enough that some stuff compiled on Atari works on the Amiga. Out of curiosity, how much m68k SysV software was out there? >> but it requires setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH to load the ASV X11 libs, so, >> I thought, if I could get my hands on the source, I could compile >> it against the AMIX supplied libs, then maybe try and get Mosaic >> compiled as well. > > The SVR4 Amiga UNIX used CDE and all bits for the X11 environment, so > the binaries should all be there. The install bits that have survived and escaped onto the Internet have X11R4 with XView/OpenLook, no Motif/CDE. There was a port of X11R5 to it that supported some of the newer graphics cards, but still no Motif. > No sources were available to people outside the CBM UNIX group at the > headquarters at the time, but perhaps they got out onto the net when > it all went down. Would be cool if someone found a tape and got it in the right hands. > The UNIX group inside CBM got disbanded way before they went totally > out of business, so it may have well gone into the shredder at some > point. Rumors were that *the* box that had the source on it crashed. Sounded like a ridiculous reason to me, but that's what I'd heard. > Quitting the CBM-UNIX group was done very crudely I might add with > some of the guys from the US being over in europe when they got told > that they were fired and their company creditcards got blocked at the > same time.. classy... From what I've heard about the last days of Commodore under Mehdi Ali, this doesn't surprise me. -- Michael Parson Pflugerville, TX KF5LGQ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 23:15 ` Michael Parson @ 2020-02-07 11:53 ` Arno Griffioen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Arno Griffioen @ 2020-02-07 11:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Parson; +Cc: tuhs On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 05:15:23PM -0600, Michael Parson wrote: > > Never got that really verified, but I do know that at the time the > > lack of support for the m68k ABI was a big hurdle for acceptance. > > *shrug* Atari UNIX and Amiga UNIX seem close enough that some stuff > compiled on Atari works on the Amiga. > > Out of curiosity, how much m68k SysV software was out there? A decent amount, at least for basic productivity software (accounting, etc.) and compilers and such. Nothing spectacular, but would have given at least an initial library of basic tools. > > The SVR4 Amiga UNIX used CDE and all bits for the X11 environment, so > > the binaries should all be there. > > The install bits that have survived and escaped onto the Internet have > X11R4 with XView/OpenLook, no Motif/CDE. There was a port of X11R5 to > it that supported some of the newer graphics cards, but still no Motif. Ah.. Yes you are right.. De distribution tape only has XView. CDE I probably only saw on an in-house demo of. I remember it was terribly slow though, especially with the limited RAM capacity at the time of max 16MB and a 25Mhz '030, which was already showing it's age by now and should really have been an '040 with the option of (much) more RAM. Bye, Arno. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-05 23:29 ` Chris Hanson @ 2020-02-06 4:02 ` Henry Bent 2020-02-06 5:05 ` Clem Cole 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Henry Bent @ 2020-02-06 4:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Michael Parson; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1235 bytes --] On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 18:20, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jan 2020, Chris Hanson wrote: > > > I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, > > and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been > > preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals? > > > > Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what > > shipped afterwards (patches etc.)? > > Most of I've seen is the stuff I found while playing with Amiga UNIX, > which is the stuff hosted at atariunix.com. I was able to pull the > Motif (v 1.1.1) bits out of the Atari UNIX disk images and get them > running on Amiga UNIX. > > Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif > bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be > happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability. > I have a QIC-150 cartridge of Motif 1.2.1 (labeled "patch release", so perhaps not a complete source tree?) but do not have a working drive that will read it. I attempted to contact Al Kossow about reading it but was unsuccessful. If you would be able to read it I would be happy to send it to you. -Henry [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1674 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-02-06 4:02 ` Henry Bent @ 2020-02-06 5:05 ` Clem Cole 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Clem Cole @ 2020-02-06 5:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1464 bytes --] I have two qic-150 drives. Contact me off list. Clem On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 8:03 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jan 2020 at 18:20, Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, 18 Jan 2020, Chris Hanson wrote: >> >> > I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, >> > and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been >> > preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals? >> > >> > Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what >> > shipped afterwards (patches etc.)? >> >> Most of I've seen is the stuff I found while playing with Amiga UNIX, >> which is the stuff hosted at atariunix.com. I was able to pull the >> Motif (v 1.1.1) bits out of the Atari UNIX disk images and get them >> running on Amiga UNIX. >> >> Speaking of old versions of Motif, are the sources for the pre-OpenMotif >> bits available anywhere? Even if under lock and key for now, I'd be >> happy knowing they'd been preserved for potential future availability. >> > > I have a QIC-150 cartridge of Motif 1.2.1 (labeled "patch release", so > perhaps not a complete source tree?) but do not have a working drive that > will read it. I attempted to contact Al Kossow about reading it but was > unsuccessful. If you would be able to read it I would be happy to send it > to you. > > -Henry > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2295 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? 2020-01-18 22:48 [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? Chris Hanson 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson @ 2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Arthur Krewat @ 2020-01-18 23:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tuhs Wow, never knew Atari was involved in anything like UNIX. Thank you! On 1/18/2020 5:48 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > I’ve seen the archives of Atari System V Release 4 for the TT030, and the scanned user and developer manuals. Has anything else been preserved, e.g. the installation tapes and any other manuals? > > Is there even a full accounting of what was in the box and what shipped afterwards (patches etc.)? > > -- Chris > > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-02-07 11:53 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2020-01-18 22:48 [TUHS] Atari System V media and books? Chris Hanson 2020-01-18 23:19 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-05 23:29 ` Chris Hanson 2020-02-06 3:44 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-06 3:54 ` Larry McVoy 2020-02-06 15:35 ` Chet Ramey 2020-02-06 15:50 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-06 17:58 ` Arno Griffioen 2020-02-06 23:15 ` Michael Parson 2020-02-07 11:53 ` Arno Griffioen 2020-02-06 4:02 ` Henry Bent 2020-02-06 5:05 ` Clem Cole 2020-01-18 23:27 ` Arthur Krewat
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).