[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Norman Wilson]

  This is also an RSX pack (I think), but when I tried to boot it, it said
  "THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM", and since I don't
  know how to mount disks under RSX-11 I left it at that.

There exists somewhere a UNIX program that reads an ODS-1 file-system
image and produces directory listings and extracts named files.

I know it exists because it was written by a friend (and probably hacked
around a little by me) almost 35 years ago, when we both worked in a
place that had some UNIX and some RSX-11.  That means `somewhere'
probably includes some place in my old files.  I'll see if I can
dig it out, upgrade it to work cleanly with modern C (it's just possible
I have an ODS-1 file system image lying around somewher too), and
post it either somewhere on the web or just to the list.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Norman Wilson scripsit:

>   This is also an RSX pack (I think), but when I tried to boot it, it said
>   "THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM", and since I don't
>   know how to mount disks under RSX-11 I left it at that.
> 
> There exists somewhere a UNIX program that reads an ODS-1 file-system
> image and produces directory listings and extracts named files.

I also found an ODS-2/ODS-5 driver for Linux at
<http://www.vms2linux.de/ods5fs.html>.  Whether it would handle ODS-1,
I don't know.

In any case, it would be worth transferring these two images to bitsavers
so that they can be found by people who want RSX-11M volumes.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
It's the old, old story.  Droid meets droid.  Droid becomes chameleon.
Droid loses chameleon, chameleon becomes blob, droid gets blob back
again.  It's a classic tale.  --Kryten, Red Dwarf

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[pechter]

The web page mentions files-11 which is ODS-1.



Bill




-----Original Message-----
From: John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>
To: Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org>
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:46
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

Norman Wilson scripsit:

>   This is also an RSX pack (I think), but when I tried to boot it, it said
>   "THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM", and since I don't
>   know how to mount disks under RSX-11 I left it at that.
> 
> There exists somewhere a UNIX program that reads an ODS-1 file-system
> image and produces directory listings and extracts named files.

I also found an ODS-2/ODS-5 driver for Linux at
<http://www.vms2linux.de/ods5fs.html>.  Whether it would handle ODS-1,
I don't know.

In any case, it would be worth transferring these two images to bitsavers
so that they can be found by people who want RSX-11M volumes.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
It's the old, old story.  Droid meets droid.  Droid becomes chameleon.
Droid loses chameleon, chameleon becomes blob, droid gets blob back
again.  It's a classic tale.  --Kryten, Red Dwarf
_______________________________________________
TUHS mailing list
TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[SPC]

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I'll do !

Thank you very much.

Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
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mobile: +34-699-996568
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
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No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo



2014-05-12 21:10 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:

>     > From: SPC <spedraja at gmail.com>
>
>     > I got one PDP-11/23-PLUS without any kind of disk (by now, I got one
>     > RL12 board plus one RL02 drive pending of cleaning and
> arrangement)...
>     > I guess if could be possible to run V6 in this machine. There's any
>     > kind of adaptation of this Unix version (or whatever) to run under ?
>
> As I mentioned in a previous message on this thread, when I took that root
> pack image from the Shoppa group, I could get it to boot to Unix right off.
> All it needs is a single RL02 drive (RL/0) (and the console terminal, of
> course).
>
> I looked at the 'unix' on it, and it's for an 11/40 type machine (which
> includes 11/23's); IIRC the README page for that set of disk images
> indicates
> that in fact they originally came off an 11/23, so they should run fine on
> yours.
>
> That Unix has a couple of other devices built into it (looks like an RX and
> some sort of A-D), but as long as you don't try and touch them, they will
> not
> be an issue.
>
> Let me know if you need any help getting it up (once you have a working
> RL02).
>
>         Noel
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Noel Chiappa scripsit:

> The C compiler is linked with the -n flag, which produces pure code. What
> the linker documentation doesn't say (and I never realized this 'back in the
> day') is that when this option is used, it rounds up the size of the text
> segment to the nearest click (0100).

Yeah, that makes sense.  Without -n, the .data segment starts right at
the top of .text, but you can't do that if you are going to share
.text but not .data.  So it's painless to round up the size of .text
so that .data starts at a memory protection boundary.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Historians aren't constantly confronted with people who carry on
self-confidently about the rule against adultery in the sixth amendment to
the Declamation of Independence, as written by Benjamin Hamilton. Computer
scientists aren't always having to correct people who make bold assertions
about the value of Objectivist Programming, as examplified in the HCNL
entities stored in Relaxational Databases.  --Mark Liberman

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: SPC <spedraja at gmail.com>

    > I got one PDP-11/23-PLUS without any kind of disk (by now, I got one
    > RL12 board plus one RL02 drive pending of cleaning and arrangement)...
    > I guess if could be possible to run V6 in this machine. There's any
    > kind of adaptation of this Unix version (or whatever) to run under ?

As I mentioned in a previous message on this thread, when I took that root
pack image from the Shoppa group, I could get it to boot to Unix right off.
All it needs is a single RL02 drive (RL/0) (and the console terminal, of
course).

I looked at the 'unix' on it, and it's for an 11/40 type machine (which
includes 11/23's); IIRC the README page for that set of disk images indicates
that in fact they originally came off an 11/23, so they should run fine on
yours.

That Unix has a couple of other devices built into it (looks like an RX and
some sort of A-D), but as long as you don't try and touch them, they will not
be an issue.

Let me know if you need any help getting it up (once you have a working RL02).

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[SPC]

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Mmm... clearly a marginal case (derive it to another thread if you consider
it opportune), but... I got one PDP-11/23-PLUS without any kind of disk (by
now, I got one RL12 board plus one RL02 drive pending of cleaning and
arrangement)... I guess if could be possible to run V6 in this machine.
There's any kind of adaptation of this Unix version (or whatever) to run
under ?

Kind regards

Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
-- 
mobile: +34-699-996568
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
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-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo



2014-05-12 19:06 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:

>     > From: John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org>
>
>     > Well, provided the compiler is honest, contra [Ken].
>
> A thought on this:
>
> The C compiler actually produces assembler, which can be (fairly easily)
> visually audited; yes, yes, I know about disassembly, but trust me, having
> done some recently (the RL bootstrap(s)), disassembled code is a lot harder
> to grok!
>
> So, really, to find the Thompson hack, we'd have to edit the binaries of
> the
> assembler!
>
> For real grins, we could write a program to convert .s format assembler to
> .mac syntax, run the results through Macro-11, and link it with the other
> linker... :-)
>
>
> Also, I found on what's going on here:
>
>     > What was wierd was that in the new one, the routine csv is one word
>     > shorter (and so is csv.o). So now I don't understand what made them
> the
>     > same sizes!? The new ones should have been one word shorter!? Still
>     > poking into this...
>
> The C compiler is linked with the -n flag, which produces pure code. What
> the linker documentation doesn't say (and I never realized this 'back in
> the
> day') is that when this option is used, it rounds up the size of the text
> segment to the nearest click (0100).
>
> So, in c2 (which is what I was looking at), the last instruction is at
> 015446, _etext is at 015450, but if you look at the executable header, it
> lists a text size of 015500 - i.e. 030 more bytes. And indeed there are 014
> words of '0' in the executable file before the data starts.
>
> And if you link c2 _without_ the -n flag, it shows 015450 in the header as
> the text size.
>
> So that's why the two versions of all the C compiler phases were the same
> size (as files); it rounded up to the same place in both, hiding the
> one-word
> difference in text size.
>
>         Noel
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org>

    > Well, provided the compiler is honest, contra [Ken].

A thought on this:

The C compiler actually produces assembler, which can be (fairly easily)
visually audited; yes, yes, I know about disassembly, but trust me, having
done some recently (the RL bootstrap(s)), disassembled code is a lot harder
to grok!

So, really, to find the Thompson hack, we'd have to edit the binaries of the
assembler!

For real grins, we could write a program to convert .s format assembler to
.mac syntax, run the results through Macro-11, and link it with the other
linker... :-)


Also, I found on what's going on here:

    > What was wierd was that in the new one, the routine csv is one word
    > shorter (and so is csv.o). So now I don't understand what made them the
    > same sizes!? The new ones should have been one word shorter!? Still
    > poking into this...

The C compiler is linked with the -n flag, which produces pure code. What
the linker documentation doesn't say (and I never realized this 'back in the
day') is that when this option is used, it rounds up the size of the text
segment to the nearest click (0100).

So, in c2 (which is what I was looking at), the last instruction is at
015446, _etext is at 015450, but if you look at the executable header, it
lists a text size of 015500 - i.e. 030 more bytes. And indeed there are 014
words of '0' in the executable file before the data starts.

And if you link c2 _without_ the -n flag, it shows 015450 in the header as
the text size.

So that's why the two versions of all the C compiler phases were the same
size (as files); it rounded up to the same place in both, hiding the one-word
difference in text size. 

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > To boot up the root pack (I don't think I did this at any point; I've
    > always mounted it as a subsidiary drive)
    > ...
    > The disk has a working RL bootstrap in block 0, it should boot OK. 

So I recently had to reboot my machine, and I took the opportunity to try
this; it worked right off, booted 'unix' OK. (I didn't try any of the other
Unixes in the root directory.) I had only that pack mounted on DL0, nothing
else.


    > So, just for grins, because I was curious (after your question), I did
    > try recompiling the C compiler, to see what I'd get.
    > What I got were three files (c0, c1 and c2) which were _the exact same
    > size_ (down to the byte) as the binaries on the V6 Research distro, but
    > had a number of differences when compared with 'cmp -l'. Odd!
    > ...
    > I'll take a gander tomorrow and try and work it out.

So, this turned out to be because I had replaced the csv.o in libc.a with a
new one, because the standard V6 one doesn't work with long returns (which
use R1 as well as R0, and the V6 cret bashed R1). I put the old csv.o back,
and re-linked them, and this time c? all turned out identical.

So the source in the distro really is the source for the running compiler on
it.

What was wierd was that in the new one, the routine csv is one word shorter
(and so is csv.o). So now I don't understand what made them the same sizes!?
The new ones should have been one word shorter!? Still poking into this...

I understand most of the differences between the versions of c? with the old
and new csv.o; in all the jumps to cret, the indirect word in the instruction
was off by two (because cret was one word lower because csv was one word
shorter); that, along with different contents in csv.o, created most of the
differences.

Why one word shorter? Because in csv:

	tst     -(sp)	/ creates a temporary on top of the stack
	jmp     (r0)

had been replaced with:

        jsr     pc,(r0)

(saving one instruction, and making it one word smaller).

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Norman Wilson scripsit:

> Certainly the directory entries were different between the two: ODS-1
> used RADIX-50-encoded file names with at most six characters plus an
> at-most-three- character `extension'

Ah, yes, of course.

> (a term which newbies sometimes improperly import into UNIX as well);

To be fair, there are programs, notably "make", which behave as if Unix
had extensions.

> I forget the exact filename rules in VMS, but filenames certainly
> could be longer than six characters.

39 characters of name and 39 characters of extension in ODS-2, no
definite limits (and Unicode to boot)imits in ODS-5.  ODS-5 is close to
NTFS.

> I'll spend some time in the next few days going over them and see if I
> can quickly get something workable.

Excellent!

> To speed that up, I taught uucico a new protocol, whereby control
> information still went over a serial line, but data blocks were
> transferred over a chunk of raw shared disk (with appropriate locks,
> of course).

Clever.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
I now introduce Professor Smullyan, who will prove to you that either
he doesn't exist or you don't exist, but you won't know which.
                               --Melvin Fitting

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Norman Wilson]

  The web page mentions files-11 which is ODS-1.

Technically (it is all coming back to me now):

FILES-11 is a family of file systems that started in RSX-11
(or perhaps before but that's the oldest instance I know).

ODS-1 is really FILES-11 ODS-1; ODS is `on-disk [something].'

RSX-11 used ODS-1.  VMS used ODS-2.  I'm not sure of all
the differences offhand, but they were substantial enough
that we ended up writing two different programs to fetch
files to UNIX from RSX and VMS volumes (we had the latter
to deal with too).  Certainly the directory entries were
different between the two: ODS-1 used RADIX-50-encoded
file names with at most six characters plus an at-most-three-
character `extension' (a term which newbies sometimes
improperly import into UNIX as well); I forget the exact
filename rules in VMS, but filenames certainly could be
longer than six characters.

I've found the early-1980s programs I remembered.  There
were two, getrsx.c and getvms.c; two programs, one for
each file-system format.  They are surely full of ancient
sloppiness that won't compile or won't work right under
a modern C compiler, and they make assumptions about byte
order.  I'll spend some time in the next few days going over
them and see if I can quickly get something workable.

A footnote as to their origin: in the world where we wrote
these programs, we had not only multiple systems, but
shared disk drives.  The disk drives themselves were
dual-ported; the controllers we used could connect to
multiple hosts as well.  Each system had its own dedicated
disk drives, but the UNIX systems could also see the drives
belonging to the RSX and VMS systems; hence the file-fetching
programs, since this was well before the sort of networking
we take for granted these days.

On the other hand, we had several UNIX systems which spoke
uucp to one another, and that was occasionally used for
large file transfers.  To speed that up, I taught uucico
a new protocol, whereby control information still went over
a serial line, but data blocks were transferred over a
chunk of raw shared disk (with appropriate locks, of course).

It was a simpler world back then, but that made it a lot more fun.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Ronald Natalie]

Yes, we got the typesetter C and the C version of nroff/troff well in advance of Version 7 coming out.
You can tell some of the vagaries of the typesetter C as it has some of the later things like += (rather than =+)
but not the full up language features.

There's a whole generation of people who won't recognize the concept

PS->integ

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Clem Cole]

one way to tell.   do you have the standard I/o lib or the portable I/O library.  the former was first released as part of typesetter C

> On May 11, 2014, at 1:21 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> Noel
> 
> I wonder if that is the so called "Typesetter C" compiler which was released independently of the system -  you needed it compile the new troff and support for other typesetters besides the CAT.   my memory which is hazy now was that typesetter C was what Mashey used for what would become PWB.   we should ask him
> 
> Clem
> 
> On May 10, 2014, at 10:06 PM, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:
> 
>>> From: Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com>
>> 
>>> have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
>>> your newly built stuff?
>> 
>> Well, I haven't tried to do that (it's not something that I'm that interested
>> in), but it _should_ be possible, since the 'vanilla' V6 distribution does
>> include the source for pretty much everything (including the C compiler,
>> assembler, loader, etc).
>> 
>> 
>> (This does not include the stuff from the Shoppa disk, like the new C
>> compiler, where I don't have the source. [The PWB distribution, which
>> includes a C compiler from 1977, is probably pretty close. Looking into
>> the PWB stuff is one of my next projects; we have 17 different versions
>> of that stuff, and I'd like to see what the differences among them are,
>> and maybe create a 'canonical' PWB.]
>> 
>> Also, per the 'Improvements' page, I have source for the Standard I/O
>> Library, but I'm using the binary library from the Shoppa disk, which may or
>> may not correspond to that source.)
>> 
>>   Noel
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Clem Cole]

Noel

I wonder if that is the so called "Typesetter C" compiler which was released independently of the system -  you needed it compile the new troff and support for other typesetters besides the CAT.   my memory which is hazy now was that typesetter C was what Mashey used for what would become PWB.   we should ask him

Clem

On May 10, 2014, at 10:06 PM, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:

>> From: Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com>
> 
>> have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
>> your newly built stuff?
> 
> Well, I haven't tried to do that (it's not something that I'm that interested
> in), but it _should_ be possible, since the 'vanilla' V6 distribution does
> include the source for pretty much everything (including the C compiler,
> assembler, loader, etc).
> 
> 
> (This does not include the stuff from the Shoppa disk, like the new C
> compiler, where I don't have the source. [The PWB distribution, which
> includes a C compiler from 1977, is probably pretty close. Looking into
> the PWB stuff is one of my next projects; we have 17 different versions
> of that stuff, and I'd like to see what the differences among them are,
> and maybe create a 'canonical' PWB.]
> 
> Also, per the 'Improvements' page, I have source for the Standard I/O
> Library, but I'm using the binary library from the Shoppa disk, which may or
> may not correspond to that source.)
> 
>    Noel
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Noel Chiappa scripsit:

>  junk:
> 
> An RL01 pack (the others are all RL02's); it has a boot block with PDP-11
> code in it; I mounted it on a simulator and booted it, and it says it's an
> RSX-11M V3.2 disk.
> 
>  user01.rl02:
> 
> This is also an RSX pack (I think), but when I tried to boot it, it said
> "THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM", and since I don't
> know how to mount disks under RSX-11 I left it at that.

If it's ODS-1 (aka FILES-11) format, it should be possible to mount it
on a Vax or Alpha system, as it is a down-level version of the OpenVMS
format ODS-2.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Let's face it: software is crap. Feature-laden and bloated, written under
tremendous time-pressure, often by incapable coders, using dangerous
languages and inadequate tools, trying to connect to heaps of broken or
obsolete protocols, implemented equally insufficiently, running on
unpredictable hardware -- we are all more than used to brokenness.
                   --Felix Winkelmann

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    >> From: Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com>

    >> have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
    >> your newly built stuff?

    > Well, I haven't tried to do that (it's not something that I'm that
    > interested in), but it _should_ be possible, since the 'vanilla' V6
    > distribution does include the source for pretty much everything
    > (including the C compiler, assembler, loader, etc).

So, just for grins, because I was curious (after your question), I did try
recompiling the C compiler, to see what I'd get.

What I got were three files (c0, c1 and c2) which were _the exact same size_
(down to the byte) as the binaries on the V6 Research distro, but had a
number of differences when compared with 'cmp -l'. Odd!

I don't know what the differences result from (and it's too late now to dig
into why, I'm fading). I'll take a gander tomorrow and try and work it out.
Too bad the binaries in the Research distro have had their symbol tables
stripped! That would have made it much easier...

My guess is something like 'libraries in different order, so two library
routines are swapped around in the linked binary', or something like that
(given that the size is an exact match). But I'll need to dig a bit...

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>

    > By Shoppa disk do you mean, Shoppe disk

The root pack (linked to from my page):

  http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/other/Tim_Shoppa_v6/unix_v6.rl02.gz

It contains lots of V6 goodies - but not, alas, source for most of them. (E.g.
I had to disassemble the RL bootstrap(s) from it.)


    > I've been trying to figure out how to attach them to the E11 one to
    > bring the whole thing up.

The others are junk (see below). To boot up the root pack (I don't think I
did this at any point; I've always mounted it as a subsidiary drive) you'd
need to say:

  mount dl0: unix_v6.rl02 /RL02

and then:

  boot dl0:

The disk has a working RL bootstrap in block 0, it should boot OK. Then you
get to take your pick of which unix to boot! There are 7 to chose from:

  77 -rwxrwxr-x  1 root    38598 Aug 22  1984 oldunix
  77 -rwxrwxr-x  1 root    38504 Jul 19  1984 oldunix.25.7
  77 -rwxrwxr-x  1 root    38568 Feb 20  1985 unix
  74 -rwxrwxr-x  1 4       36956 Mar  9  1983 unix.jones
  69 -rwxrwxr-x  1 root    34408 Aug 16  1983 unix.mlab
  76 -rwxrwxr-x  1 4       38316 Sep  3  1982 unix.rxrl
  68 -rwxrwxr-x  1 root    33958 Jun  6  1983 unix.tmp        

and I have no idea how they all differ - or what each one expects to use for
a root device and swap device.

Looking at 'unix', it gives both rootdev and swapdev as '01000' (which is
probably the RL, I'm too lazy to grovel around in bdevsw and make sure). The
super block reports 19000 as the size of the file system, and sure enough,
swplo is reported as 045070 (19000), and nswap as 02710 (1480). So it's
probably set up to run and swap on RL/0.


    > and any of the set of disks that are in the distributions portion of
    > the site with his name on them?

All of the other disks in the V6 folder with his name on it:

  http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/other/Tim_Shoppa_v6

are junk; here's a brief rundown on each one:

 copy_num1_user.rl02:
 user0_backup.rl02:
 user_backup2.rl02:

All very similar to the 'unlabeled' disk (below) - lots of random user files
for biology stuff, little if anything of any use/interest.

There is a file which isn't listed in the README:

 unlabeled.rl02:

It looks like another /user disk, full of random biology stuff; nothing
interesting except a copy of a nice-looking Kermit written in C (by someone
at Columbia, IIRC).

 junk:

An RL01 pack (the others are all RL02's); it has a boot block with PDP-11
code in it; I mounted it on a simulator and booted it, and it says it's an
RSX-11M V3.2 disk.

 user01.rl02:

This is also an RSX pack (I think), but when I tried to boot it, it said
"THIS VOLUME DOES NOT CONTAIN A HARDWARE BOOTABLE SYSTEM", and since I don't
know how to mount disks under RSX-11 I left it at that.

 scratch_disk_1123.rl02: 

This does indeed seem to be something that was used for disk diagnostics: the
boot block contains gubble, including (in the first RL11 block) lots of words
with all ones, and a lot of 52525's.

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Larry McVoy scripsit:

> With all due respect (and I'm not trolling John, I've got respect for
> you) I think it was Ken.

It was indeed.  As I age, brain farts are multiplying in what I am
pleased to call my mind.  To make it worse, I'll probably say "Dennis"
a few more times before I get it fixed.  Google helps compensate, and
I'm getting better about verifying things, but not always.

> /me misses the days where it was all about what the bell labs guys
> would do next.  Those were fun.  These days it seems like we all have
> to try and hope google isn't going to be really evil.  Wasn't it more
> fun when it was about science?

I postdate that era, alas.  Still, I'm sure they had their politics too.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Is a chair finely made tragic or comic? Is the portrait of Mona Lisa
good if I desire to see it? Is the bust of Sir Philip Crampton lyrical,
epical or dramatic?  If a man hacking in fury at a block of wood make
there an image of a cow, is that image a work of art? If not, why not?
                --Stephen Dedalus

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
My mistake, you did mean Shoppa disk.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello!
> By Shoppa disk do you mean, Shoppe disk, and any of the set of disks
> that are in the distributions portion of the site with his name on
> them? I've been trying to figure out how to attach them to the E11 one
> to bring the whole thing up.
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>
>
> On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>>     > From: Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com>
>>
>>     > have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
>>     > your newly built stuff?
>>
>> Well, I haven't tried to do that (it's not something that I'm that interested
>> in), but it _should_ be possible, since the 'vanilla' V6 distribution does
>> include the source for pretty much everything (including the C compiler,
>> assembler, loader, etc).
>>
>>
>> (This does not include the stuff from the Shoppa disk, like the new C
>> compiler, where I don't have the source. [The PWB distribution, which
>> includes a C compiler from 1977, is probably pretty close. Looking into
>> the PWB stuff is one of my next projects; we have 17 different versions
>> of that stuff, and I'd like to see what the differences among them are,
>> and maybe create a 'canonical' PWB.]
>>
>> Also, per the 'Improvements' page, I have source for the Standard I/O
>> Library, but I'm using the binary library from the Shoppa disk, which may or
>> may not correspond to that source.)
>>
>>         Noel
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Gregg Levine]

Hello!
By Shoppa disk do you mean, Shoppe disk, and any of the set of disks
that are in the distributions portion of the site with his name on
them? I've been trying to figure out how to attach them to the E11 one
to bring the whole thing up.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > From: Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com>
>
>     > have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
>     > your newly built stuff?
>
> Well, I haven't tried to do that (it's not something that I'm that interested
> in), but it _should_ be possible, since the 'vanilla' V6 distribution does
> include the source for pretty much everything (including the C compiler,
> assembler, loader, etc).
>
>
> (This does not include the stuff from the Shoppa disk, like the new C
> compiler, where I don't have the source. [The PWB distribution, which
> includes a C compiler from 1977, is probably pretty close. Looking into
> the PWB stuff is one of my next projects; we have 17 different versions
> of that stuff, and I'd like to see what the differences among them are,
> and maybe create a 'canonical' PWB.]
>
> Also, per the 'Improvements' page, I have source for the Standard I/O
> Library, but I'm using the binary library from the Shoppa disk, which may or
> may not correspond to that source.)
>
>         Noel
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Larry McVoy <lm at bitmover.com>

    > have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
    > your newly built stuff?

Well, I haven't tried to do that (it's not something that I'm that interested
in), but it _should_ be possible, since the 'vanilla' V6 distribution does
include the source for pretty much everything (including the C compiler,
assembler, loader, etc).


(This does not include the stuff from the Shoppa disk, like the new C
compiler, where I don't have the source. [The PWB distribution, which
includes a C compiler from 1977, is probably pretty close. Looking into
the PWB stuff is one of my next projects; we have 17 different versions
of that stuff, and I'd like to see what the differences among them are,
and maybe create a 'canonical' PWB.]

Also, per the 'Improvements' page, I have source for the Standard I/O
Library, but I'm using the binary library from the Shoppa disk, which may or
may not correspond to that source.)

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 09:27:56PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> Larry McVoy scripsit:
> 
> > At Sun this was called "make bootstrap" but I bet that predates Sun.  The
> > bootstrap process, as I remember it, had the compiler build the compiler,
> > then the new compiler built the kernel and userland, then there was an
> > install step, and presto, you were running on bits you had built yourself.
> > All of them.
> 
> Well, provided the compiler is honest, contra Dennis.

With all due respect (and I'm not trolling John, I've got respect for you)
I think it was Ken.

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html

/me misses the days where it was all about what the bell labs guys would do
next.  Those were fun.  These days it seems like we all have to try and hope
google isn't going to be really evil.  Wasn't it more fun when it was about
science?

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Larry McVoy scripsit:

> At Sun this was called "make bootstrap" but I bet that predates Sun.  The
> bootstrap process, as I remember it, had the compiler build the compiler,
> then the new compiler built the kernel and userland, then there was an
> install step, and presto, you were running on bits you had built yourself.
> All of them.

Well, provided the compiler is honest, contra Dennis.

An interesting fact about the Squeak Smalltalk image (which runs on the
Squeak VM as well as other VMs) is that there are bits in it which were
set prior to 1980, and consequently are not the consequence of any of
the source code provided with it.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound   John Cowan <cowan at ccil.org>
free-range chickens (except they have   http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
teeth, arms instead of wings, and
dinosaurlike tails).                        --Elyse Grasso

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Larry McVoy]

This may have been answered and I missed it while I was out weedwacking
but have you gotten to a point where you can rebuild the world and install
your newly built stuff?

At Sun this was called "make bootstrap" but I bet that predates Sun.  The
bootstrap process, as I remember it, had the compiler build the compiler,
then the new compiler built the kernel and userland, then there was an
install step, and presto, you were running on bits you had built yourself.
All of them.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > OK, I have whipped up some material on how to bring V6 up under
    > Ersatz-11. See here:
    >   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/V6Unix.html

New location (although the old one still works):

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html

So it turns out there was a bogon on the old version of this page: it claimed
the Windoze version of 'tar' needed Unix system mods (which is incorrect, it
was the version for V6 which needed the mods - cut and paste error). Fixed now
(it's useful to have a Windoze 'tar' because some of the old TAR files in the
archive can't be read by modern tools), and a certain amount of new material
added to the page overall.


    > There is more content/pages coming: the start of an 'advanced things
    > you can do to improve your V6 Unix' page

I've upgraded that somewhat to a complete page (although I'll probably add
more at some point in the future, e.g. I have a version of 'ps' which shows
sleep channels symbolically, text slots as ordinals, etc but I need to tweak
it a bit before I bring it out). The page is here:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/ImprovingV6.html

now, although the main page links to it too.

And I have another page coming, e.g. a 'what to look out for when you're
porting stuff to and from V6' guide. Etc, etc.

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org>

    > If you haven't already, see
    > <http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2004/homework/hw5.html> et seqq.

I had seen a later variant of that course; I wasn't aware that an earlier one
used Unix; thanks for the pointer.

It's a bit unfortunate (from my PoV) that in the Unix coverage they seemed to
mostly focus on the low-level mechanics (e.g. how stacks are switched, etc,
etc), and not on the (to me) more interesting lessons to be learned from V6 -
most notably, how to get so much bang for so little buck! (I am convinced
that one of the primary challenges facing computer science these days is
control of complexity, but I don't want to get way off-topic, so I'll stop
there.)

Although I suppose things like that have to be covered at some point, and
they might as well do it in V6 as in anything else!

	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Kurt H Maier]

A related fun thing to play with is aiju's in-browser pdp-11 emulator, which
is a huge javascript program found here: http://pdp11.aiju.de/

It also runs V6.

klhm

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[SPC]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1334 bytes --]

Absolutely pretty works. Thanks !

​​--
Gracias | Regards
Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Grüße - Salutations
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*

twitter: @sergio_pedraja
skype: Sergio Pedraja
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
http://spedraja.wordpress.com
https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja <http://spedraja.wordpress.com/>
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo​


2014-05-05 3:53 GMT+02:00 John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org>:

> Noel Chiappa scripsit:
>
> > OK, I have whipped up some material on how to bring V6 up under
> Ersatz-11.
> > See here:
> >
> >   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/V6Unix.html
>
> If you haven't already, see
> <http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2004/homework/hw5.html> et seqq.
>
> --
> John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
> Where the wombat has walked, it will inevitably walk again.
>    (even through brick walls!)
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>


​
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[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[John Cowan]

Noel Chiappa scripsit:

> OK, I have whipped up some material on how to bring V6 up under Ersatz-11.
> See here:
> 
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/V6Unix.html

If you haven't already, see
<http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/6.828/2004/homework/hw5.html> et seqq.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Where the wombat has walked, it will inevitably walk again.
   (even through brick walls!)

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

    > On Sat, May 03, 2014 at 06:20:55PM -0400, Gregg Levine wrote:

    > What he said. I believe we all are interested.

OK, I have whipped up some material on how to bring V6 up under Ersatz-11.
See here:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/V6Unix.html

That page covers i) how to get the emulator, V6 Unix disks, and what you need
to do start it running, and then ii) some of the initial steps to take past
that to improve to working environment. Included in that are a couple of
things I tripped over, and how to avoid them.

The latter part assumes you want to do something more than just start it, so
you can see it start up; it includes coverage of the commands that work with
the emulator's "DOS device" to do things like read files off the host machine
into the Unix; a serious problem on V6 Unix having to do with 21st Century
dates; a 'more' command for V6 Unix (Vanilla V6 was back before the days of
video terminals... :-); the ability to TELNET into the emulator; and some
useful Windows commands (e.g. to read files out of the Unix into the host
machine, and create blank disk pack files); and finally configuration file
for the E11 emulator.


There is more content/pages coming: the start of an 'advanced things you can
do to improve your V6 Unix' page, which includes the new C compiler [the
'vanilla' V6 C compiler does not handle longs, unsigned, casts, and a bunch
of other things]; tar; the Standard I/O library; etc is already there, but
unfinished. And I have some material on things you can trip over in porting
stuff back and forth (I found some doozies trying to make V6 commands run
under Windoze), etc. But that will be later.


For now, I'm interested in hearing: of any errors or issues with the first
page; whether people find it completely incomprensible, or totally fantastic
(or whereever on the axis between them it lies); what additional topics I
should cover; etc, etc.

Let me know! And enjoy your V6 experience!
	
	Noel

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Larry McVoy]

On Sat, May 03, 2014 at 06:20:55PM -0400, Gregg Levine wrote:
> Hello!
> What he said. I believe we all are interested.

11/70 was my favorite assembly, so pleasant.  I'd play with it :)
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Gregg Levine]

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Hello!
What he said. I believe we all are interested.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 6:14 PM, SPC <spedraja at gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course I am :-)
>
> Kind Regards
> SPc.
>
>
> 2014-04-30 4:19 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:
>
>> Hello, all: I'm working (long-term) on a project to bring back to life the
>> V6+ Unix system (it wasn't vanilla V6 - it looks like it had some PWB
>> stuff
>> added) that was used on a number of machines at the Laboratory for
>> Computer
>> Science at MIT in the late 70s - early 80s.
>>
>>
>> As part of that, I've been playing with bringing up V6 on a PDP11
>> simulator,
>> and have written some stuff that would probably be useful to anyone who's
>> interested in bringing up Unix on a PDP-11 simulator.
>>
>> I used the Ersatz-11 simulator from D-Bit (for no particularly good
>> reason,
>> except it runs under Windoze, and the "FAQ on the Unix Archive and Unix on
>> the PDP-11" page said it was the fastest).
>>
>> I have been very pleased with this simulator; it is indeed fast (my
>> simulated
>> 11/70 runs at about 100 MIPS on a relatively elderly Athlon, which is
>> about
>> 30 times as fast as a real one used to :-), and it has lots of nice
>> features
>> (e.g. you can TELNET in to a terminal port on the simulated PDP-11).
>>
>> It also has this nice virtual device that allows a program running on the
>> simulated PDP-11 i) access to files in the Windows file system, and ii) to
>> issue commands to the emulator. I have written a V6 driver for it (should
>> be
>> fairly easy to adapt to V7 or later), and a suite of Unix commands to grab
>> a
>> file off the Windows file system (both binary and text mode), and issue
>> various commands to the simulator.
>>
>> Finally, I have a number of Windows commands to do various useful things,
>> such as read a file off a simulated Unix V6 file system (hosted in a
>> Windows
>> file), including ports of a number of Unix commands (e.g. ncheck, nm,
>> etc); I
>> don't detail them all here as I don't want this email to get too long (and
>> boring).
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if anyone's interested in any of this; if so, I can send
>> in more info (or whip up a Web page, whichever would be better).
>>
>> I also ran into a number of pitfalls on the way to getting V6 running,
>> using
>> RK05 disk images from the TUHS archive, and I can do a short writeup on
>> 'How
>> to bring up V6 under Ersatz-11' if anyone's interested.
>>
>>         Noel
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gracias | Regards
>
> Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Grüße - Salutations
> --
> Sergio Pedraja
>
> twitter: @sergio_pedraja
> skype: Sergio Pedraja
> http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
> http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
> http://spedraja.wordpress.com
> https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja
> http://www.viadeo.com
> http://www.avalonred.com/
> -----
> No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[SPC]

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[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3069 bytes --]

Of course I am :-)

Kind Regards
SPc.


2014-04-30 4:19 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:

> Hello, all: I'm working (long-term) on a project to bring back to life the
> V6+ Unix system (it wasn't vanilla V6 - it looks like it had some PWB stuff
> added) that was used on a number of machines at the Laboratory for Computer
> Science at MIT in the late 70s - early 80s.
>
>
> As part of that, I've been playing with bringing up V6 on a PDP11
> simulator,
> and have written some stuff that would probably be useful to anyone who's
> interested in bringing up Unix on a PDP-11 simulator.
>
> I used the Ersatz-11 simulator from D-Bit (for no particularly good reason,
> except it runs under Windoze, and the "FAQ on the Unix Archive and Unix on
> the PDP-11" page said it was the fastest).
>
> I have been very pleased with this simulator; it is indeed fast (my
> simulated
> 11/70 runs at about 100 MIPS on a relatively elderly Athlon, which is about
> 30 times as fast as a real one used to :-), and it has lots of nice
> features
> (e.g. you can TELNET in to a terminal port on the simulated PDP-11).
>
> It also has this nice virtual device that allows a program running on the
> simulated PDP-11 i) access to files in the Windows file system, and ii) to
> issue commands to the emulator. I have written a V6 driver for it (should
> be
> fairly easy to adapt to V7 or later), and a suite of Unix commands to grab
> a
> file off the Windows file system (both binary and text mode), and issue
> various commands to the simulator.
>
> Finally, I have a number of Windows commands to do various useful things,
> such as read a file off a simulated Unix V6 file system (hosted in a
> Windows
> file), including ports of a number of Unix commands (e.g. ncheck, nm,
> etc); I
> don't detail them all here as I don't want this email to get too long (and
> boring).
>
>
> I'm not sure if anyone's interested in any of this; if so, I can send
> in more info (or whip up a Web page, whichever would be better).
>
> I also ran into a number of pitfalls on the way to getting V6 running,
> using
> RK05 disk images from the TUHS archive, and I can do a short writeup on
> 'How
> to bring up V6 under Ersatz-11' if anyone's interested.
>
>         Noel
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>



-- 
Gracias | Regards

Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Grüße - Salutations
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*

twitter: @sergio_pedraja
skype: Sergio Pedraja
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
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http://www.viadeo.com
http://www.avalonred.com/
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo
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[TUHS] Work I've done with a PDP-11 simulator

[Noel Chiappa]

Hello, all: I'm working (long-term) on a project to bring back to life the
V6+ Unix system (it wasn't vanilla V6 - it looks like it had some PWB stuff
added) that was used on a number of machines at the Laboratory for Computer
Science at MIT in the late 70s - early 80s.


As part of that, I've been playing with bringing up V6 on a PDP11 simulator,
and have written some stuff that would probably be useful to anyone who's
interested in bringing up Unix on a PDP-11 simulator.

I used the Ersatz-11 simulator from D-Bit (for no particularly good reason,
except it runs under Windoze, and the "FAQ on the Unix Archive and Unix on
the PDP-11" page said it was the fastest).

I have been very pleased with this simulator; it is indeed fast (my simulated
11/70 runs at about 100 MIPS on a relatively elderly Athlon, which is about
30 times as fast as a real one used to :-), and it has lots of nice features
(e.g. you can TELNET in to a terminal port on the simulated PDP-11).

It also has this nice virtual device that allows a program running on the
simulated PDP-11 i) access to files in the Windows file system, and ii) to
issue commands to the emulator. I have written a V6 driver for it (should be
fairly easy to adapt to V7 or later), and a suite of Unix commands to grab a
file off the Windows file system (both binary and text mode), and issue
various commands to the simulator.

Finally, I have a number of Windows commands to do various useful things,
such as read a file off a simulated Unix V6 file system (hosted in a Windows
file), including ports of a number of Unix commands (e.g. ncheck, nm, etc); I
don't detail them all here as I don't want this email to get too long (and
boring).


I'm not sure if anyone's interested in any of this; if so, I can send
in more info (or whip up a Web page, whichever would be better).

I also ran into a number of pitfalls on the way to getting V6 running, using
RK05 disk images from the TUHS archive, and I can do a short writeup on 'How
to bring up V6 under Ersatz-11' if anyone's interested.

	Noel