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* [TUHS] The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
@ 2022-09-08 22:19 Clem Cole
  2022-09-15  1:01 ` [TUHS] " Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-09-15  5:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-09-08 22:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS

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Mike Haertel's quest for the 5620 tools got me thinking.    Does anyone
know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?  It would be cool if
someone had the whole thing on a single tape.  But, I suspect many of us
have pieces of it. I'm not sure I know all the pieces that made it up.  But
I would like to see the USDL section of Warren's Archive include a sub
directory Toolchest with the collected parts - from Korn shell, the final
version of Writer workbench, to DMD tools and the like.  IIRC the final
edition of PCC2 was released as part of it.

thoughts?
Clem

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-08 22:19 [TUHS] The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s Clem Cole
@ 2022-09-15  1:01 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2022-09-15  5:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2022-09-15  1:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS

Clem Cole writes:
> --000000000000a07c7c05e831d57d
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Mike Haertel's quest for the 5620 tools got me thinking.    Does anyone
> know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?
[...]
>  IIRC the final
> edition of PCC2 was released as part of it.

And wasn't there a version of rogue lurking there as well?  I have
memories of sneaking that past Accounting on an invoice that included
a couple of other, more legit, things we downloaded.

--lyndon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  1:01 ` [TUHS] " Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
@ 2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
  2022-09-15  6:11     ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-09-15 17:09     ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-09-18 18:27   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
  2022-09-19 14:34   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-09-15  4:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lyndon, clemc; +Cc: tuhs

"Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)" <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Clem Cole writes:
> > --000000000000a07c7c05e831d57d
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> > Mike Haertel's quest for the 5620 tools got me thinking.    Does anyone
> > know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?
> [...]
> >  IIRC the final
> > edition of PCC2 was released as part of it.
>
> And wasn't there a version of rogue lurking there as well?  I have
> memories of sneaking that past Accounting on an invoice that included
> a couple of other, more legit, things we downloaded.
>
> --lyndon

"new" awk was available there, as was Chris Ramming's awkcc, and ksh88.
The awk book from 1987 has instructions and the phone number for logging
into the toolchest. IIRC you set up a UUCP account in order to get
the software transferred.

I think Emacs for Unix (not GNU Emacs) was also available. I don't
remember too much more.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-08 22:19 [TUHS] The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s Clem Cole
  2022-09-15  1:01 ` [TUHS] " Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
@ 2022-09-15  5:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-09-15  6:40   ` arnold
  2022-09-15 13:26   ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-09-15  5:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS

Clem Cole wrote:
> Does anyone know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?

Is this related?

http://unixpc.taronga.com/STORE/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
@ 2022-09-15  6:11     ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-09-15 17:09     ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lars Brinkhoff @ 2022-09-15  6:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

arnold@skeeve.com writes:
> I think Emacs for Unix (not GNU Emacs) was also available. I don't
> remember too much more.

Someone tipped me off this is Montgomery's "BTL" Emacs:
http://unixpc.taronga.com/STORE/EMACS+IN.gz

It's a cpio archive, and the Name file says:
"UNIX PC EMACS Version 4.9c 9/5/85 - from THE STORE!"

No source code, unfortunately.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  5:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-09-15  6:40   ` arnold
  2022-09-16  9:31     ` arnold
  2022-09-15 13:26   ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-09-15  6:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lars, clemc; +Cc: tuhs

Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:

> Clem Cole wrote:
> > Does anyone know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?
>
> Is this related?
>
> http://unixpc.taronga.com/STORE/

No. THE STORE! was an archive of binary installable packages for the
Unix PC / 3B1. According to that site, AT&T ran it. You could
download stuff via public UUCP.  There were a lot of nice precompiled
bits of software available. The SE+IN.gz is the Georgia Tech 'se'
screen editor that I contributed. (See se-editor.org for a modern
incarnation.)

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  5:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
  2022-09-15  6:40   ` arnold
@ 2022-09-15 13:26   ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-09-15 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Brinkhoff; +Cc: TUHS

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 437 bytes --]

Sadly, I do not think so - although there are things from the Toolchest in
that archive.  My guess is somebody was porting code to the UNIX PC and the
Toolchest is where they got some of the sources.
ᐧ

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 1:59 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:

> Clem Cole wrote:
> > Does anyone know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?
>
> Is this related?
>
> http://unixpc.taronga.com/STORE/
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
  2022-09-15  6:11     ` Lars Brinkhoff
@ 2022-09-15 17:09     ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-09-15 17:59       ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) @ 2022-09-15 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: arnold; +Cc: tuhs

arnold@skeeve.com writes:

> "new" awk was available there, as was Chris Ramming's awkcc, and ksh88.

There were all sorts of goodies. Honey Dan-Ber UUCP, and (I think)
Device Independent Troff were there.  But I cannot for the life of
me remember what the non-rogue software was that we bought.  HDB
is a likely suspect, as we ran a pretty busy UUCP/Usenet relay
at the time.

> The awk book from 1987 has instructions and the phone number for logging
> into the toolchest. IIRC you set up a UUCP account in order to get
> the software transferred.

I forget the exact registration steps, now.  But for delivery you
set up a UUCP login for the toolchest site on your host, then they
would call you and transfer the files over.  And bill you some
outrageous amount of money for the "long distance" charges they
incurred.  It was quite the scam.  If we had polled them instead
the LD costs would have been about 30% less.

--lyndon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15 17:09     ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
@ 2022-09-15 17:59       ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2022-09-15 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM); +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3136 bytes --]

On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 1:09 PM Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) <
lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

>
> I forget the exact registration steps, now.  But for delivery you
> set up a UUCP login for the toolchest site on your host, then they
> would call you and transfer the files over.  And bill you some
> outrageous amount of money for the "long distance" charges they
> incurred.  It was quite the scam.  If we had polled them instead
> the LD costs would have been about 30% less.
>
IIRC there were a bunch of other charges too.   It was not well thought out
and was all part of what ultimately killed the core AT&T IP against the
FOSS world.  The harder the AT&T folks tried to force their way as the
'standard' the more allusive it became.  The problem was that their
monetization model for SW was broken (although to be fair this was true for
a number of folks also).  It  was fine for some very specific things - like
CAD/CAM where the higher effectiveness of an engineer / better accuracy
etc.. could be measured.   But the 'value' of H-D-B UUCP or KSH88 could
never be directly calculated.   So charging thousands of dollars just made
little sense.  Hey even if they had put a single 'Toolchest' source tape
for say $5K they >>might<< have been able to sell it.   But trying to do it
piece meal and each program was hundreds to as I recall H-D-B and KS88 were
close to 1K.

So with the PC business where SW was priced 'high enough' so that people
did not want to steal it, but you got the volume up, you could be successful
  -  $29.99 for Turbo Pascal is probably the best example I can think.

As I have reported a couple of times.   When what would end up becoming the
Sys III license was being negotiated ~Winter 1980 was the one time I was in
a smallish meeting with Bill Gates.  Gates in complete exasperation with
the AT&T 'suits' looked at them and said something I have never forgotten.
 Bill wanted to pay no more $25/copy for UNIX period.   AT&T said if the
volumes made it to millions they would drop to $1000/CPU (for a then $5-7K
PC/AT).  Mind you AT&T had just released its 3B20 and was sure the 3B would
go up against IBM and DEC and take them on --  No more 370s or Vaxen!!!

Anyway, Gates shook his head and said: *"You guys don't get it.    The only
thing that matters in the SW business is volume.  The cost of goods is
zero." * He was trying to help them understand that with SW you have to eat
your development cost and either make the SW completely free (FOSS model)
so close to it (Microsoft/Borland) model.

BTW: for this list, I suppose we should be thankful. DEC never got it.
They wanted $5K/CPU for the BLISS compiler AFTER you already bought your
Vax.    Imagine if they had given their tools away.

PS Minor ... note after 40+ years I'm only starting to be heard at work.
For those that know the Intel compilers are the same DNA as the DEC
compilers and a lot of the same people.   It's only been in the last year
we >>finally<< won that the tools are free.  Yes, we charge the commercial
folks for support that care.  But anyone can use them.
ᐧ

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  6:40   ` arnold
@ 2022-09-16  9:31     ` arnold
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: arnold @ 2022-09-16  9:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lars, clemc, arnold; +Cc: tuhs

arnold@skeeve.com wrote:

> The SE+IN.gz is the Georgia Tech 'se' screen editor that I
> contributed. (See se-editor.org for a modern incarnation.)

I'm informed that that website is no longer available. See
https://github.com/screen-editor/se instead.

I just now opened an issue on the Github repo.

Arnold

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  1:01 ` [TUHS] " Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
@ 2022-09-18 18:27   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
  2022-09-19 14:34   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS @ 2022-09-18 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Le 15/09/2022 à 03:01, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) a écrit :
> Clem Cole writes:
>> --000000000000a07c7c05e831d57d
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Mike Haertel's quest for the 5620 tools got me thinking.    Does anyone
>> know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?
> [...]
>>   IIRC the final
>> edition of PCC2 was released as part of it.
> 
> And wasn't there a version of rogue lurking there as well?  I have
> memories of sneaking that past Accounting on an invoice that included
> a couple of other, more legit, things we downloaded.
> 
> --lyndon

Hi,

the only toolchest I known are the one in 
csrg/bsd-4.4-lite2-source+1hour/local/toolchest# ll
total 28K
drwxr-xr-x 2 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 asd
drwxr-xr-x 6 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 ksh
drwxr-xr-x 5 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 ksh.2
drwxr-xr-x 2 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 mkutl
drwxr-xr-x 7 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 nawk
drwxr-xr-x 5 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 nmake
drwxr-xr-x 7 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 tabs


the ksh things in the toolchest is here http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/ksh/
I've just put the toolchest as bsd-4.4-lite2-toolchest.tar.bz2
the Document Work Bench (DWB) is here http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/dwb/

Regards,

/me
-- 
mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre-lists@laposte.net


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s
  2022-09-15  1:01 ` [TUHS] " Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
  2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
  2022-09-18 18:27   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
@ 2022-09-19 14:34   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS @ 2022-09-19 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Le 15/09/2022 à 03:01, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) a écrit :
> Clem Cole writes:
>> --000000000000a07c7c05e831d57d
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Mike Haertel's quest for the 5620 tools got me thinking.    Does anyone
>> know of an archive of the USL Toolchest at large?
> [...]
>>   IIRC the final
>> edition of PCC2 was released as part of it.
> 
> And wasn't there a version of rogue lurking there as well?  I have
> memories of sneaking that past Accounting on an invoice that included
> a couple of other, more legit, things we downloaded.
> 
> --lyndon

Hi,

the only toolchest I known are the one in 
csrg/bsd-4.4-lite2-source+1hour/local/toolchest# ll
total 28K
drwxr-xr-x 2 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 asd
drwxr-xr-x 6 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 ksh
drwxr-xr-x 5 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 ksh.2
drwxr-xr-x 2 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 mkutl
drwxr-xr-x 7 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 nawk
drwxr-xr-x 5 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 nmake
drwxr-xr-x 7 admin 41 4.0K May 23  2002 tabs


the ksh things in the toolchest is here http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/ksh/
I've just put the toolchest as bsd-4.4-lite2-toolchest.tar.bz2
the Document Work Bench (DWB) is here http://cyrillelefevre.free.fr/dwb/

Regards,

/me
-- 
mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre-lists@laposte.net


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-09-19 14:35 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 12+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-09-08 22:19 [TUHS] The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s Clem Cole
2022-09-15  1:01 ` [TUHS] " Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2022-09-15  4:23   ` arnold
2022-09-15  6:11     ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-09-15 17:09     ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)
2022-09-15 17:59       ` Clem Cole
2022-09-18 18:27   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
2022-09-19 14:34   ` Cyrille Lefevre via TUHS
2022-09-15  5:59 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2022-09-15  6:40   ` arnold
2022-09-16  9:31     ` arnold
2022-09-15 13:26   ` Clem Cole

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