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From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 09:42:21 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <bea278-3b10-9791-d4cb-9ff780c5f491@dotat.at> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6LNPeE69TQKcr8v=8s17usj0c5BQWGFcLQ5nj9GKLEsg@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1583 bytes --]

Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm curious about other peoples' thoughts on the talk and the overall topic?

I saw this talk yesterday and I twote some off-the-cuff thoughts
(https://twitter.com/fanf/status/1433004863818960898):

I wanted to hear more about the problem of closed firmware (Roscoe's
research platform uses OpenBMC). I hope the gradual rise of open firmware
will help to fix the problem of platform management controllers treating
the OS as the enemy.

The talk focuses on Linux because ~everything runs Linux, but Linux was
designed for a platform that was defined by Intel and Microsoft, and the
disfunctional split that Roscoe points out is exactly the split in design
responsibilities between Intel and Microsoft. In the Arm world the split
has been reproduced, but with Arm and the SoC manufacturers instead of
Intel and the PC clones, and Linux instead of Windows.

There’s also Conway’s law, “you ship your org chart”, and in this case
Roscoe is talking about the organisation of the computer industry as a
whole. So if someone comes up with a better OS architecture, is the
implied org chart also successful under capitalism?

(end paste)

I suppose the historical perspective would be to ask if the way that OS
and driver software was developed in the past in vertically-integratewd
companies can provide insight into the hardware complexity of today's
systems...

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot@dotat.at>  https://dotat.at/
Bailey: South or southwest, becoming variable, 2 to 4. Slight.
Showers. Good.

  reply	other threads:[~2021-09-02  9:01 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 52+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-09-01 21:58 Dan Cross
2021-09-02  8:42 ` Tony Finch [this message]
2021-09-03  0:19   ` John Cowan
2021-09-03  3:24     ` Douglas McIlroy
2021-09-03 13:21       ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-09-08 11:14         ` Tony Finch
2021-09-16 19:27         ` Dan Cross
2021-09-17  0:34           ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-09-17  0:44             ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-17 17:07               ` Bakul Shah
2021-09-17  1:33             ` Dan Cross
2021-09-02 15:41 ` Kevin Bowling
2021-09-02 20:12   ` Marshall Conover
2021-09-03 15:56 ` Warner Losh
2021-09-03 17:10   ` Adam Thornton
2021-09-03 17:28     ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-03 17:42       ` John Floren
2021-09-03 19:02       ` Lawrence Stewart
2021-09-03 19:11       ` Clem Cole
2021-09-03 17:46     ` [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware [ really a comment on SoCs ] Jon Steinhart
2021-09-16 18:38 ` [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) Dan Cross
2021-09-16 19:34   ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-16 19:41     ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-16 23:14       ` Marshall Conover
2021-09-16 23:44         ` Rob Pike
2021-09-17  0:37           ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-17  1:38         ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17  3:54         ` John Cowan
2021-09-16 23:45       ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17  0:06         ` Al Kossow
2021-09-17  4:06           ` John Cowan
2021-09-17  4:18             ` Al Kossow
2021-09-17  0:32         ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-16 23:54       ` David Arnold
2021-09-17  1:10         ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17  1:28           ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-17  1:40             ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17  2:04               ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-17  2:21                 ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17  2:48           ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-09-17 17:39         ` Bakul Shah
2021-09-17 17:51           ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17 18:07             ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-17 21:03               ` Derek Fawcus
2021-09-17 22:11                 ` Larry McVoy
2021-09-19  4:05                   ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-09-17 18:34             ` Bakul Shah
2021-09-17 18:56               ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17 19:16                 ` Bakul Shah
2021-09-17 19:35                   ` Jon Steinhart
2021-09-17 15:56     ` Bakul Shah
2021-09-17 18:24       ` ron minnich

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