From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23936 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2021 09:01:31 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 2 Sep 2021 09:01:31 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 539AE9D541; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:01:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6C89BA1D; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:00:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C100A9BA1D; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:00:44 +1000 (AEST) X-Greylist: delayed 1100 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at minnie.tuhs.org; Thu, 02 Sep 2021 19:00:43 AEST Received: from ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.131]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 414AF9B9F9 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 2021 19:00:43 +1000 (AEST) X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-ScannerInfo: https://help.uis.cam.ac.uk/email-scanner-virus Received: from [90.251.237.25] (port=63610 helo=milebook.lan) by ppsw-31.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.157]:25) with esmtpsa (PLAIN:fanf2) (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) id 1mLiIf-000XkX-Ky (Exim 4.94.2) (return-path ); Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:42:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2021 09:42:21 +0100 From: Tony Finch To: Dan Cross In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0-51542600-1630572141=:30393" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ATC/OSDI'21 joint keynote: It's Time for Operating Systems to Rediscover Hardware (Timothy Roscoe) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-51542600-1630572141=:30393 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Dan Cross wrote: > > I'm curious about other peoples' thoughts on the talk and the overall top= ic? I saw this talk yesterday and I twote some off-the-cuff thoughts (https://twitter.com/fanf/status/1433004863818960898): I wanted to hear more about the problem of closed firmware (Roscoe's research platform uses OpenBMC). I hope the gradual rise of open firmware will help to fix the problem of platform management controllers treating the OS as the enemy. The talk focuses on Linux because ~everything runs Linux, but Linux was designed for a platform that was defined by Intel and Microsoft, and the disfunctional split that Roscoe points out is exactly the split in design responsibilities between Intel and Microsoft. In the Arm world the split has been reproduced, but with Arm and the SoC manufacturers instead of Intel and the PC clones, and Linux instead of Windows. There=E2=80=99s also Conway=E2=80=99s law, =E2=80=9Cyou ship your org chart= =E2=80=9D, and in this case Roscoe is talking about the organisation of the computer industry as a whole. So if someone comes up with a better OS architecture, is the implied org chart also successful under capitalism? (end paste) I suppose the historical perspective would be to ask if the way that OS and driver software was developed in the past in vertically-integratewd companies can provide insight into the hardware complexity of today's systems... Tony. --=20 f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ Bailey: South or southwest, becoming variable, 2 to 4. Slight. Showers. Good. --0-51542600-1630572141=:30393--