From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCF928327 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 15:51:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C691943EE2; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 00:51:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from vmail-relay.servers.aueb.gr (relay3.servers.aueb.gr [195.251.255.93]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D72143ED5 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 2025 00:51:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from vmail-mta.servers.aueb.gr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vmail-relay.servers.aueb.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBADD80A8A; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:51:16 +0200 (EET) ARC-Filter: OpenARC Filter v0.1.0 vmail-relay.servers.aueb.gr 6DBADD80A8A ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=aueb.gr; s=arc201901; t=1737211876; cv=none; b=E1qq64i70L4knwWaVf1VoFovoMzGinY/ztnMT40MmnuJz3fYPrtC671Jp3jcZDKvOBkQcOCmAz9IUeOeY3dbjlsbzXlJOFvEYYWuodIhXk7Qkb3rahorq8PM3rsUyYaluURUOVkph9ltjvpkBBO0ugMi8Yaxe71UL0ncHiMpib4rCKErOwoCOUlccHvYfUj5BDAOENXJy800ZETUXgiknXMTMYFeGoNNsw3hPYCqsh3Il6CyjVeyGX94KvlOyEqIJQlJAWXgyENAKRBzj6ejCYbHjPSJd3xMkkcowb2QjGMgPPAFDuD5VGcyRc2Im0n3UkHgVnw8fAHljLolnqGtpg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=aueb.gr; s=arc201901; t=1737211876; c=relaxed/simple; bh=Q/i5OxBa9Dx94QIcODsl96MCdRXEAFpKNahjbL8V09s=; h=DKIM-Signature:Received:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:User-Agent: Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Content-Language:Organization:Phone: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=yCP0l7sjmXxStTzi88AdfAzS0Ohq2vBLjhBkdzFwD4OVOF+wNmYJtliR2WExpY6xPYkMCxX9J+5jSQrytT+hZCSSoSBjomMFQGAeFaLoBxlPdOQVF1Lpm+qqDvBnk3F3h+1VPoDNuRjmO2GW4VErJBnOrDBuiDTSXYZBokmos6X2cMAPsQhbR+m0Fk+yWX0uH/wXwFsad9rIDvxWolRrtzZtcgZBtmK1sYHbTpR4auFdkVDuAnTnjmF2NNAeRaqLwcPhZchC13+xZ1w4xgXtD6faqzrGobsCNE9z5VW65cO/U74nPjxsLj/I40a9TzOxlZUuzeNql4MhxBmZOQAegw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aueb.gr; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=aueb.gr; s=201901; t=1737211876; bh=Q/i5OxBa9Dx94QIcODsl96MCdRXEAFpKNahjbL8V09s=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=sUqTnSPaNgixe/lJaY/5glN2bRBD4p6SNU5jRGFYn53kXW0OQfGfVF5nIuTFy9M/p Xz5Cs6/Gne+3ipnUKN/flNK1wWRGIwGzN6FWk2SLFkJFm0SH0r5Tgt71gkiShrfApA FklCYcA7rWigsqIO8q/3IiLbX6ACS5M7e/BqIw/czAYvqxG3YLFPa5dss/hjgX6LKz VX2saNcVloZaX8qNB0hI/b6MjuBzagXJ3B0SizDu6XJwBpB8+bUaWJOA/U9255eMhf GKcYdiIV6IM3A+trZzJFr1nxuNaOkPC7fROOU10rTRzbAQHKa9gJMIlBY7gZm0hhKk Y5nUg+PUVRnUA== Received: from [192.168.136.3] (ppp-2-86-96-145.home.otenet.gr [2.86.96.145]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: dds) by vmail-mta.servers.aueb.gr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F006D8087E; Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:51:16 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 16:51:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: Marc Rochkind , Bakul Shah References: <28a16508-9ee5-41f1-af02-2f8cd7371de8@aueb.gr> <67F7FAEB-551F-47AA-9E09-2D8948E4CCCF@iitbombay.org> From: Diomidis Spinellis Content-Language: el-en Organization: Athens University of Economics and Business Phone: +30 210 8203621 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID-Hash: SWVOK5SDUCQE5CYVHZCNLLP36A4FJKNL X-Message-ID-Hash: SWVOK5SDUCQE5CYVHZCNLLP36A4FJKNL X-MailFrom: dds@aueb.gr X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS main list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Perkin-Elmer Sort/Merge II vs Unix sort(1) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: I gave specific examples of facilities offered by the Perkin-Elmer Sort/Merge, (file allocation, blocking, interactive and batch modes) that on Unix systems are handled in a way that allows all programs to benefit from them. The Unix way reduces duplication and makes the system more versatile by offering the facilities to all programs. I based my comparison on the documented facilities of the two programs. I also have some first hand experience with Perkin-Elmer's OS/32. In the 1990s I was involved in servicing and transferring some record-keeping applications from a Perkin-Elmer running OS/32 and RELIANCE to a Unix system running Ingres. I found I was a lot more productive in Unix's shell than in Perkin-Elmer's MTM. (Admittedly, this could also be a matter of experience.) In 2018 I used the Unix sort and join commands to speed up a MariaDB relational join of a five billion row table with a 847 million row table (108 GB in total) from 380 hours to 12 hours [1], so I'm very happy with how Unix sort can handle moderately large data sets. The GNU version will even recursively merge intermediate files when it runs out of file descriptors. Even the Seventh Edition sort would overflow to temporary files and merge them [2]. I'm sure the mainframe sort programs did some pretty amazing things and could run circles around the puny 830 line Unix Seventh Edition sort program. The 215 page IBM DOS VS sort documentation that John Levine posted here is particularly impressive. But I can't stop thinking that, in common with the mainframes these programs were running on, they represent a mindset that has been surpassed by superior ideas. [1] https://www.spinellis.gr/blog/20180805/ [2] https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/Research-V7/usr/src/cmd/sort.c#L350 Diomidis On 17-Jan-25 21:35, Marc Rochkind wrote: > Why did you say "thoughtless agglomeration of features?" > > Do you know anything about the design of the P-E S/M, or is just a > biased guess? Have you ever tried a large external sort with UNIX commands? > > Marc