From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,NICE_REPLY_A autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 30311 invoked from network); 16 Nov 2021 17:06:23 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Nov 2021 17:06:23 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CEFBD9C29E; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 03:06:22 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1FB9C641; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 03:04:49 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="dDXkcqxG"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4ABE09C209; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 03:03:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com (mail-ot1-f51.google.com [209.85.210.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFA859C1E1 for ; Wed, 17 Nov 2021 03:03:00 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id b5-20020a9d60c5000000b0055c6349ff22so34587939otk.13 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:03:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject:content-language:to :references:from:in-reply-to; bh=iPceQGL8CmTyQ5g9bfG33T6302OO+WAAv9PP7MHqofo=; b=dDXkcqxGEE7vPI27dAormpWgJdNkq7838xmo1eeWdhj44FuoE9EwTNBzoDPcSoRumN vEDF0FKPPbwxDCh6WLBFfP1FUOpaZyXGDdBxtYucMQsFOKNeR19rgDqsnK9Bqi73E5ZW uOn5stxu8qsQynFT8dF6ka+OI/LN12XVJAfL5LBr3uSnBcmlwV94avXDyNOqA+MZBK8k VfVboh5XRc2OpglUCPV1qWBlPgzbtNTgBQk55C5LsEJPlQRNNbVfJpxv1AzQjdLkKpOE p+ANTtgX3RVt+jkXeBVYLesFpLF4oKfXpUzhw7Ria+kRO1qouSQ/T+1daVG0CtSHR3aF 45Gw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:mime-version:user-agent:subject :content-language:to:references:from:in-reply-to; bh=iPceQGL8CmTyQ5g9bfG33T6302OO+WAAv9PP7MHqofo=; b=Hqt9Du85x3ElhKWLmkDtH6bDIJY4wKmqk8TbQRn2oVussHiQYhvBtC0bBN1EhtIFNX obwSU4UpcjKOcawjFMJYWHQ+uV6QWKoJ2seRNj3MFlGq7MQqr66yasNjzc6Ksp8w0HkP 0W7fQ9G/TgKnSy9efLSR/bepdoN5R5RYIzCpKKBcmt5Fh+xrYiq5VJjakkwI4nvlUlqh D8Er7SCMDLIi0vEkCvczFwQV1PElIZa8E0eyJKHFAXcsziOLtkTmvhUjUOf6O6TpSfgq 0DeRl1h0V0JdXOmHXq2DbLfbn+lh9WmXCFvW71HiLY7dNOUA9A7jcXKh+FU3kLis/rw+ Kn1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532hz9wtYuntL6T+5HX+8qf+TfjtPHzq6R7f5fIJZ40s6aLRPG38 /J/jgFeJmBpegFd51mSxCWESfJNuslE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxhIqbb3yCIXKcw6UAWZHIjgLjTE2IJsNrsvcbvY8xnWIJMQeriggXINBRRuveNr2C32hUlsA== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:222f:: with SMTP id o44mr7442113ota.131.1637082179415; Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:02:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.0.2] ([2.56.190.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t18sm3579793ott.2.2021.11.16.09.02.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:02:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BRzUKgbBGuJspR1kg50C9CSC" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 11:02:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.0 Content-Language: en-US To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org References: <20211116040858.se3ygq2butxqopcx@localhost.localdomain> From: Will Senn In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BRzUKgbBGuJspR1kg50C9CSC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I still heart BASIC. I enjoy it's simplicity. I started out on BASIC with a Commodore Pet ca. 1978. I still like to fire it up every now and then - Chipmunk on my Macbook, BAS/BAS2 on RSTS/11, RSX-11, BBC basic? on RISC OS, doesn't matter, they all do a fair job of BASIC. I especially like firing up  Berhard's pdp 8 simulator with teletype emulation and coding on the teletype - https://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/pdp8e.html. Unix... well, I've not been real successful in getting it to work on v6, other folks maybe, but not me. By work, I mean, I type in reasonable BASIC and it runs reasonably :). The bas executable work fine, it's the human-computer interface that doesn't seem to wanna work, nothing I type in as a program more complex than 'hello, world' will run with any reliability. On another note, I remember the days when people bad mouthed lovers of BASIC (in industry) and acted as though they were simpletons, later they became haters on VB folks. When I learned C, in my twenties, I felt empowered, but at the same time hamstrung, some of the simplest things in BASIC became an odyssey in C. Nowadays, I use Python more than anything else these (boring data sciency stuff). What I like about Python is that it reminds me of BASIC in its simplicity of expression, but to be fair, it goes far, far beyond it in power... I just wish it were as free form as Ruby in how you say, what you say... any, I digress... My favorite BASIC book: My Computer Likes Me* *when I speak in BASIC by Bob Albrecht Written in 1972 (for a teletype interface) On a less positive note. The professors who originally developed it at Dartmouth could never quite see there way clear to open source it. True BASIC? pshaw :). There was a time when I would have loved to run BASIC on linux, bsd, then Mac and have it be consistent across the platforms, other than as a curiosity, that time has gone. My question for the group is what's BASIC's history in the unices? I know it's in v6, cuz I struggled with it there, but I'm curious what the backstory is? I have the impression that the marriage of bas and v6 was one of convenience, maybe there was a thought to draw in the hobbiest? Were Kemeny and Kurtz characters in the same circles as the unix folks? Later, Will On 11/16/21 8:56 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:09 PM G. Branden Robinson > wrote: > > It's hard to overstate the impact of BASIC on the first generation of > people who grew up with computers in the home instead of encountering > them only later in a time-sharing environment with professional > operators and administrators. > > FWIW:   A number of us learned BASIC in the late 1960s/early 1970s > (/i.e./ before the microprocessor versions ever appeared as they did > not yet exist).  Gates & Allen used it in HS on a PDP-10 with an > ASR-33, and I'm their same age.   I did the same thing in JHS and HS > on a GE-635 [Mark-II DTSS] and then later HP2000 [Community Computer > Services] - 10 cps baby, upper case only. > > What I don't know is if the PDP-8 BASIC came before the PDP-10 > version.   But the point is that most of the mini's (nomatter the > manufacturer) had an implementation of BASICin the late 60s and early > 1970s, long before the micro's came on the scene.  I would later get > to know/work with a number of the people in DEC languages groups and I > do know that the syntax and semantics of the BASIC for RSTS > implementation originally was based on the PDP-10 BASIC (although they > did have some differences). > > In fact, DEC's RSTS/11 and the HP/2100 running BASIC were the two > systems that ended up being used by a lot of small timesharing shops > and eventually on-site at the high schools that could afford the HW. > The reason being that BASIC became popular on the small system was it > required fewer resources and because it was primarily interpreted > matched.  An urban legend is that when Gates opened in Microsoft in > AZ, he bartered time from the local high school running their RSTS > system for them in return for being able to use it as their > development system [I definitely know that he used their system, I'm > just now sure how he renumerated them for the computer time]. > > > This is not because BASIC was a high quality language, especially as > stripped down by Microsoft and other implementors. > > It made perfect sense when Gates decided to implement it for the > Altair.   And he modeled his version on the DEC syntax and semantics - > because that was what he knew was used to from the PDP-10, and what he > and Paul had learned first. > > Everybody knew there were bigger, better, or faster languages out > there, > but they were priced commercially and marketed at professionals. > > And more importantly, /requires many more resources/.  > Consider UCSD-Pascal, you needed a disk-based system to run it, be an > LSI-11, Apple-IIe, or CP/M box.  The BASIC's often worked out of ROM. >  Hey, I can think of implementations of other languages such as > FORTRAN's, C, Cobol, PL/M, PL/1, and eventually many Pascals for the > different micro's, but they all took more HW to support the > edit/compile/link cycle. > > The point is that for a >>hobbyist<<, running BASIC was 'good > enough.'  The only HS in the late 1970s that I knew that could afford > a PDP 11/45 and actually ran UNIX on it, was Lincoln-Sudbury - which > is in a high-end suburban Boston.  They also had a lot of help from > parents who per professionals here in Boston working for places like > DEC, DG, Pr1me, Honeywell, and the like.   At that time, I was long > gone, but I now my father at my own prep school in > suburban Philadelphia dreamed of an 11/40 class system to run RSTS, > but they could not afford it. So if they wanted off a timesharing > service like the HP/21000, they bought small microprocessor (CP/M or > Apple-II) gear and ran them as a hobbyist would. > > > At one time, it was considered good sport to ridicule people whose > firstprogramming language was BASIC; > > I'm not so much sure it was that their first language was BASIC, as > much as they did not go beyond it.   I will say that once the HW > started to be able to support more complete languages (such as > Pascal), there was some of that.  I used to say the problem was that > they probably learned it in HS and their teachers did know more. > > My own father (who taught me BASIC on the GE-635 when I was in JHS), > knew only BASIC and FORTRAN because that was what he had learned > working part-time as a 'computer' at Rocketdyne in the late > 1950s/early 1960s.   By the late 60s, he was the first 'computer > teacher' at the prep school when I went (in Philadelphia, but not that > dissimilar to Bill Gates's experiences in Seattle at a local prep > school there). He taught us what he knew and /what he had access to/. > Eventually, I outpaced him a bit, and I started to learn a little > assembler for the HP because I was curious. But I came to a point > where I knew way more than he did before I left HS [BTW: Gates and > Allen tell a similar story - of learning PDP-10 assembler at some > point -- advancing ahead of their teachers].  The truth is I think my > Dad was a bit ahead of his time, /but he did not know what he did not > know /and did know to try to teach others anything other than BASIC > and FORTRAN/./ > > FWIW: I went to CMU and had to be re-taught - being introduced to > Algol, real FORTRAN, IBM Assembler, APL (and eventually many of other > wonders). BTW: By the mid/late '70s, I had taught my Dad Pascal so he > could use it with USCD-Pascal with his 'advanced students' now that he > had a few Apple-IIe's that could run it. > > after a while I figured out that thiswas a form of hazing, similar > to the snotty attitudes adopted by a > subset of student employees > > Point taken... and I there probably was a lot of those, particularly > later once the HW ability and cost available made it possible to have > a choice. But the problem was that most of the young people had come > from places where the educators that taught them BASIC did not know > better even if they had had enough HW to do it. > > Unfortunately, because the hobbyist and much of the press for > entry-level of the same, touted BASIC, many did not know better.   The > fact is I'm still now sure the HS and JHS are a lot better than they were. > > I'll let Steinhart reply, but he wrote an excellent book recently > targeted to just those same students that what to know more, but > frankly their HS teachers really are not in a position to teach them > properly. > > Clem > ᐧ --------------BRzUKgbBGuJspR1kg50C9CSC Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I still heart BASIC. I enjoy it's simplicity. I started out on BASIC with a Commodore Pet ca. 1978. I still like to fire it up every now and then - Chipmunk on my Macbook, BAS/BAS2 on RSTS/11, RSX-11, BBC basic? on RISC OS, doesn't matter, they all do a fair job of BASIC. I especially like firing up  Berhard's pdp 8 simulator with teletype emulation and coding on the teletype - https://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/pdp8e.html. Unix... well, I've not been real successful in getting it to work on v6, other folks maybe, but not me. By work, I mean, I type in reasonable BASIC and it runs reasonably :). The bas executable work fine, it's the human-computer interface that doesn't seem to wanna work, nothing I type in as a program more complex than 'hello, world' will run with any reliability.

On another note, I remember the days when people bad mouthed lovers of BASIC (in industry) and acted as though they were simpletons, later they became haters on VB folks. When I learned C, in my twenties, I felt empowered, but at the same time hamstrung, some of the simplest things in BASIC became an odyssey in C. Nowadays, I use Python more than anything else these (boring data sciency stuff). What I like about Python is that it reminds me of BASIC in its simplicity of expression, but to be fair, it goes far, far beyond it in power... I just wish it were as free form as Ruby in how you say, what you say... any, I digress...

My favorite BASIC book:

My Computer Likes Me*
*when I speak in BASIC

by Bob Albrecht

Written in 1972 (for a teletype interface)

On a less positive note. The professors who originally developed it at Dartmouth could never quite see there way clear to open source it. True BASIC? pshaw :). There was a time when I would have loved to run BASIC on linux, bsd, then Mac and have it be consistent across the platforms, other than as a curiosity, that time has gone.

My question for the group is what's BASIC's history in the unices? I know it's in v6, cuz I struggled with it there, but I'm curious what the backstory is? I have the impression that the marriage of bas and v6 was one of convenience, maybe there was a thought to draw in the hobbiest? Were Kemeny and Kurtz characters in the same circles as the unix folks?


Later,

Will

On 11/16/21 8:56 AM, Clem Cole wrote:


On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:09 PM G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
It's hard to overstate the impact of BASIC on the first generation of
people who grew up with computers in the home instead of encountering
them only later in a time-sharing environment with professional
operators and administrators.
FWIW:   A number of us learned BASIC in the late 1960s/early 1970s (i.e. before the microprocessor versions ever appeared as they did not yet exist).  Gates & Allen used it in HS on a PDP-10 with an ASR-33, and I'm their same age.   I did the same thing in JHS and HS on a GE-635 [Mark-II DTSS] and then later HP2000 [Community Computer Services] - 10 cps baby, upper case only.  

What I don't know is if the PDP-8 BASIC came before the PDP-10 version.   But the point is that most of the mini's (no matter the manufacturer) had an implementation of BASIC in the late 60s and early 1970s, long before the micro's came on the scene.  I would later get to know/work with a number of the people in DEC languages groups and I do know that the syntax and semantics of the BASIC for RSTS implementation originally was based on the PDP-10 BASIC (although they did have some differences).  

In fact, DEC's RSTS/11 and the HP/2100 running BASIC were the two systems that ended up being used by a lot of small timesharing shops and eventually on-site at the high schools that could afford the HW. The reason being that BASIC became popular on the small system was it required fewer resources and because it was primarily interpreted matched.  An urban legend is that when Gates opened in Microsoft in AZ, he bartered time from the local high school running their RSTS system for them in return for being able to use it as their development system [I definitely know that he used their system, I'm just now sure how he renumerated them for the computer time].


This is not because BASIC was a high quality language, especially as
stripped down by Microsoft and other implementors.
It made perfect sense when Gates decided to implement it for the Altair.   And he modeled his version on the DEC syntax and semantics - because that was what he knew was used to from the PDP-10, and what he and Paul had learned first.

 
Everybody knew there were bigger, better, or faster languages out there,
but they were priced commercially and marketed at professionals.
And more importantly, requires many more resources.  Consider UCSD-Pascal, you needed a disk-based system to run it, be an LSI-11, Apple-IIe, or CP/M box.  The BASIC's often worked out of ROM.   Hey, I can think of implementations of other languages such as FORTRAN's, C, Cobol, PL/M, PL/1, and eventually many Pascals for the different micro's, but they all took more HW to support the edit/compile/link cycle.

The point is that for a >>hobbyist<<, running BASIC was 'good enough.'  The only HS in the late 1970s that I knew that could afford a PDP 11/45 and actually ran UNIX on it, was Lincoln-Sudbury - which is in a high-end suburban Boston.  They also had a lot of help from parents who per professionals here in Boston working for places like DEC, DG, Pr1me, Honeywell, and the like.   At that time, I was long gone, but I now my father at my own prep school in suburban Philadelphia dreamed of an 11/40 class system to run RSTS, but they could not afford it.  So if they wanted off a timesharing service like the HP/21000, they bought small microprocessor (CP/M or Apple-II) gear and ran them as a hobbyist would.


 
At one time, it was considered good sport to ridicule people whose first programming language was BASIC;
I'm not so much sure it was that their first language was BASIC, as much as they did not go beyond it.   I will say that once the HW started to be able to support more complete languages (such as Pascal), there was some of that.  I used to say the problem was that they probably learned it in HS and their teachers did know more.

My own father (who taught me BASIC on the GE-635 when I was in JHS), knew only BASIC and FORTRAN because that was what he had learned working part-time as a 'computer' at Rocketdyne in the late 1950s/early 1960s.   By the late 60s, he was the first 'computer teacher' at the prep school when I went (in Philadelphia, but not that dissimilar to Bill Gates's experiences in Seattle at a local prep school there).  He taught us what he knew and what he had access to. Eventually, I outpaced him a bit, and I started to learn a little assembler for the HP because I was curious.  But I came to a point where I knew way more than he did before I left HS [BTW: Gates and Allen tell a similar story - of learning PDP-10 assembler at some point -- advancing ahead of their teachers].  The truth is I think my Dad was a bit ahead of his time, but he did not know what he did not know and did know to try to teach others anything other than BASIC and FORTRAN.

FWIW: I went to CMU and had to be re-taught - being introduced to Algol, real FORTRAN, IBM Assembler, APL (and eventually many of other wonders).  BTW: By the mid/late '70s, I had taught my Dad Pascal so he could use it with USCD-Pascal with his 'advanced students' now that he had a few Apple-IIe's that could run it.   

 
after a while I figured out that this was a form of hazing, similar to the snotty attitudes adopted by a
subset of student employees
Point taken... and I there probably was a lot of those, particularly later once the HW ability and cost available made it possible to have a choice.  But the problem was that most of the young people had come from places where the educators that taught them BASIC did not know better even if they had had enough HW to do it.   

Unfortunately, because the hobbyist and much of the press for entry-level of the same, touted BASIC, many did not know better.   The fact is I'm still now sure the HS and JHS are a lot better than they were.

I'll let Steinhart reply, but he wrote an excellent book recently targeted to just those same students that what to know more, but frankly their HS teachers really are not in a position to teach them properly.

Clem
ᐧ

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