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* [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
@ 2017-04-06  2:15 Jason Stevens
  2017-04-06  2:20 ` Noel Hunt
  2017-04-06  6:57 ` [TUHS] Unix emacs at Bell Labs and elsewhere Erik E. Fair
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2017-04-06  2:15 UTC (permalink / raw)


I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge projects would use research Unix.  I've always heard of the original C++ to C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.

It doesn't look like it had the wide scale following that C or Fortan had at this point.

Sadly my experience with C++ was mostly tied to Borland on the micro in early 90's, which makes it look mature compared to these early versions.

It's great finding stuff like this in the tree hiding in plain sight, if only you know what to look for. (http://unix.superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/cfront/?cvsroot=rv9)

Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars I always imagined NJ being more vi.  

Thanks again for making this release happen!

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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* [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
  2017-04-06  2:15 [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research Jason Stevens
@ 2017-04-06  2:20 ` Noel Hunt
  2017-04-06  2:21   ` Jason Stevens
  2017-04-06  6:57 ` [TUHS] Unix emacs at Bell Labs and elsewhere Erik E. Fair
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Noel Hunt @ 2017-04-06  2:20 UTC (permalink / raw)


> Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars
> I always imagined NJ being more vi.

I would be very much surprised if jim/sam was not the editor
of choice (apart from Ken Thompson who seemed content with
'ed').


On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Jason Stevens <
jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge
> projects would use research Unix. I've always heard of the original C++ to
> C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.
>
> It doesn't look like it had the wide scale following that C or Fortan had
> at this point.
>
> Sadly my experience with C++ was mostly tied to Borland on the micro in
> early 90's, which makes it look mature compared to these early versions.
>
> It's great finding stuff like this in the tree hiding in plain sight, if
> only you know what to look for. (http://unix.superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-
> bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/cfront/?cvsroot=rv9)
>
> Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars I always imagined
> NJ being more vi.
>
> Thanks again for making this release happen!
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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* [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research
  2017-04-06  2:20 ` Noel Hunt
@ 2017-04-06  2:21   ` Jason Stevens
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Jason Stevens @ 2017-04-06  2:21 UTC (permalink / raw)


I need to get one of those new fangled graphical terminals working!

On April 6, 2017 10:20:26 AM GMT+08:00, Noel Hunt <noel.hunt at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars
>> I always imagined NJ being more vi.
>
>
>I would be very much surprised if jim/sam was not the editor
>of choice (apart from Ken Thompson who seemed content with
>'ed').
>
>
>
>On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:15 PM, Jason Stevens <
>jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com <mailto:jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com>
>>
>wrote:
>
>
>I suppose that it would make sense that all of AT&T's leading edge
>projects would use research Unix. I've always heard of the original C++
>to C translator but this is the first time I've actually seen it.
>
>It doesn't look like it had the wide scale following that C or Fortan
>had at this point.
>
>Sadly my experience with C++ was mostly tied to Borland on the micro in
>early 90's, which makes it look mature compared to these early
>versions.
>
>It's great finding stuff like this in the tree hiding in plain sight,
>if
>only you know what to look for. ( http://unix.
><http://unix.superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/c
>front/?cvsroot=rv9>
>superglobalmegacorp.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/researchv9/cmd/cfront/?cvsroo
>t=rv9)
>
>Or that emacs was in the v9 tree, in the religious wars I always
>imagined NJ being more vi. 
>
>Thanks again for making this release happen!
>
>-- 
>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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* [TUHS] Unix emacs at Bell Labs and elsewhere
  2017-04-06  2:15 [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research Jason Stevens
  2017-04-06  2:20 ` Noel Hunt
@ 2017-04-06  6:57 ` Erik E. Fair
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Erik E. Fair @ 2017-04-06  6:57 UTC (permalink / raw)


Jason,
	There was a Unix-based emacs from the Labs, back in the day: Warren Montgomery's emacs.

	https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.emacs/f7L4OYbJT5U

It was installed on the UCB Cory Hall PDP-11/70 running 2.8 BSD when I gained access (an account) to it in January 1981. I used Montgomery emacs as my transition aid to Unix because TECO-based EMACS was the first screen-oriented editor I had learned to use on the CERAS DECsystem-20/60 running TOPS-20, during a 1978 summer school session at Stanford.

I switched to vi relatively rapidly that winter - it faster, and I disliked having one finger on the "control" key all day long. However, I've never forgotten a series of emacs key bindings, and that's been ... useful in a wide range of circumstances where I've encountered other systems put together by people from that "culture" (e.g. Cisco IOS). I also claim to have made an informed choice of text editor: I use vi and prefer it, despite having learned emacs first.

Perhaps someone else here can speak to how widely Montgomery emacs was used at Bell Labs or elsewhere.

	Erik Fair


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* [TUHS] Typing tutors
@ 2021-02-06  2:57 Will Senn
  2021-02-06 16:55 ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2021-02-06  2:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

Hi all,

On a completely different note... I’ve been delving into typing tutor programs of late. Quite a mishmash of approaches out there. Not at all like what I remember from junior high - The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog, kinda stuff. Best of breed may be Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing on the gui front, and I hate to admit it, gnu typist, on the console front.

I’m wondering if there are some well considered unix programs, historically, for learning typing? Or did everyone spring into the unix world accomplished typists straight outta school? I did see mention a while back about a TOPS-10 typing tutor, not unix, but in the spirit - surely there's some unix history around typing tutors.

Thanks,

Will


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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06  2:57 [TUHS] Typing tutors Will Senn
@ 2021-02-06 16:55 ` Clem Cole
  2021-02-06 17:22   ` Ron Natalie
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-02-06 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:57 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:

> I did see mention a while back about a TOPS-10 typing tutor, not unix, but
> in the spirit - surely there's some unix history around typing tutors.
>
Nah   I just learned to push harder on the ASR-33 keys ;-)

Funny, back-in-the-day, the local public HS had a typing class for the
girls, which two of my sisters took.   The all-male prep-school where my
dad taught and my brothers and I all went, had nothing. But I had access to
an ASR-33 and just migrated to it.

To this day, my wife (who is a concert pianist/organist) can touch type but
she is amazed at watching me with my 2, 3 or 4 finger style.

Clem
ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 16:55 ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-02-06 17:22   ` Ron Natalie
  2021-02-06 17:29     ` Clem Cole
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2021-02-06 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole, Will Senn; +Cc: TUHS main list

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One of the smartest things my mother did was make me take typing in 
summer school one year.    Little did she or I knew that being able to 
type 60WPM was going to become a very important asset in my eventual 
career.


------ Original Message ------
From: "Clem Cole" <clemc@ccc.com>
To: "Will Senn" <will.senn@gmail.com>
Cc: "TUHS main list" <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: 2/6/2021 11:55:08 AM
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors

>
>
>On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:57 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I did see mention a while back about a TOPS-10 typing tutor, not unix, 
>>but in the spirit - surely there's some unix history around typing 
>>tutors.
>Nah   I just learned to push harder on the ASR-33 keys ;-)
>
>Funny, back-in-the-day, the local public HS had a typing class for the 
>girls, which two of my sisters took.   The all-male prep-school where 
>my dad taught and my brothers and I all went, had nothing. But I had 
>access to an ASR-33 and just migrated to it.
>
>To this day, my wife (who is a concert pianist/organist) can touch type 
>but she is amazed at watching me with my 2, 3 or 4 finger style.
>
>Clem
>ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 17:22   ` Ron Natalie
@ 2021-02-06 17:29     ` Clem Cole
  2021-02-06 17:33     ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-02-06 18:56     ` David Barto
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-02-06 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: TUHS main list

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Which, is why we made both of my adult kids learn to touch type.
ᐧ

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 12:22 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> One of the smartest things my mother did was make me take typing in summer
> school one year.    Little did she or I knew that being able to type 60WPM
> was going to become a very important asset in my eventual career.
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Clem Cole" <clemc@ccc.com>
> To: "Will Senn" <will.senn@gmail.com>
> Cc: "TUHS main list" <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
> Sent: 2/6/2021 11:55:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:57 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I did see mention a while back about a TOPS-10 typing tutor, not unix,
>> but in the spirit - surely there's some unix history around typing tutors.
>>
> Nah   I just learned to push harder on the ASR-33 keys ;-)
>
> Funny, back-in-the-day, the local public HS had a typing class for the
> girls, which two of my sisters took.   The all-male prep-school where my
> dad taught and my brothers and I all went, had nothing. But I had access to
> an ASR-33 and just migrated to it.
>
> To this day, my wife (who is a concert pianist/organist) can touch type
> but she is amazed at watching me with my 2, 3 or 4 finger style.
>
> Clem
> ᐧ
>
>

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 17:22   ` Ron Natalie
  2021-02-06 17:29     ` Clem Cole
@ 2021-02-06 17:33     ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-02-06 17:47       ` Ron Natalie
  2021-02-06 22:38       ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-02-06 18:56     ` David Barto
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-02-06 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

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I learned on a manual typewriter in 7th grade, but I got fast on a 
keypunch. To this day i don't use the right shift key, because it didn't 
work on a keypunch.

At Berkeley, everybody was already a touch typist. That's why vi 
commands emphasize lower case letters, especially hjkl which are right 
under the home position. The original reason for hjkl was the ADM3A, but 
when I added arrow key support to vi and disabled the hardcoded hjkl, a 
line of grad students made me put it back.

     Mary Ann

On 2/6/21 9:22 AM, Ron Natalie wrote:
> One of the smartest things my mother did was make me take typing in 
> summer school one year.    Little did she or I knew that being able to 
> type 60WPM was going to become a very important asset in my eventual 
> career.
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Clem Cole" <clemc@ccc.com <mailto:clemc@ccc.com>>
> To: "Will Senn" <will.senn@gmail.com <mailto:will.senn@gmail.com>>
> Cc: "TUHS main list" <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>>
> Sent: 2/6/2021 11:55:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 9:57 PM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:will.senn@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     I did see mention a while back about a TOPS-10 typing tutor, not
>>     unix, but in the spirit - surely there's some unix history around
>>     typing tutors.
>>
>> Nah   I just learned to push harder on the ASR-33 keys ;-)
>> Funny, back-in-the-day, the local public HS had a typing class for 
>> the girls, which two of my sisters took.  The all-male prep-school 
>> where my dad taught and my brothers and I all went, had nothing. But 
>> I had access to an ASR-33 and just migrated to it.
>>
>> To this day, my wife (who is a concert pianist/organist) can touch 
>> type but she is amazed at watching me with my 2, 3 or 4 finger style.
>>
>> Clem
>> ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 17:33     ` Mary Ann Horton
@ 2021-02-06 17:47       ` Ron Natalie
  2021-02-06 18:06         ` Clem Cole
  2021-02-06 22:38       ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Ron Natalie @ 2021-02-06 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton, tuhs

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Yep.   The problem with keypunches and teletypes is that they had a 
limit to how fast you could type on them and you could easily outtype 
them.  The key to being efficient on them was to get into the rhythm of 
the maximum speed the machine could accept.

My first terminal I got to use was actually an ADM1.   It had the same 
arrow keys printed on HJKL as the ADM3.   The H and J made sense 
(backspace and linefeed for left and down).   The others were just 
convenient as they were physically adjacent.

To this day, it galls me that emacs uses ^H for help.   It's the first 
thing I change when I install it.

By the time vi rolled around I had already learned one of the emacs 
variants (after a brief stint with a Rand-editor flavored thing called 
INed).    To this day I don't really have much facility in vi.   It used 
to freakout my coworkers no end that if there was no emacs on the 
machine, I'd just blast through everything using ed.    Nice thing about 
doing a lot of work in ed:  you get very good at regular expressions.


------ Original Message ------
From: "Mary Ann Horton" <mah@mhorton.net>
To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: 2/6/2021 12:33:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors

>At Berkeley, everybody was already a touch typist. That's why vi 
>commands emphasize lower case letters, especially hjkl which are right 
>under the home position. The original reason for hjkl was the ADM3A, 
>but when I added arrow key support to vi and disabled the hardcoded 
>hjkl, a line of grad students made me put it back.
>
>
>

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 17:47       ` Ron Natalie
@ 2021-02-06 18:06         ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-02-06 18:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: TUHS main list

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On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 12:47 PM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:

>  It used to freakout my coworkers no end that if there was no emacs on the
> machine, I'd just blast through everything using ed.    Nice thing about
> doing a lot of work in ed:  you get very good at regular expressions.
>
Yep - although there was usually a vi, which is why I stuck with it.
uemacs just sucked. WRT ^H yeah - it also galled me that if you type ^H to
ITS, they knew what you wanted to do and would torment you by telling you
to use DEL.   Sigh...

Clem
ᐧ

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 17:22   ` Ron Natalie
  2021-02-06 17:29     ` Clem Cole
  2021-02-06 17:33     ` Mary Ann Horton
@ 2021-02-06 18:56     ` David Barto
  2021-02-08 21:50       ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: David Barto @ 2021-02-06 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ron Natalie; +Cc: TUHS main list

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> On Feb 6, 2021, at 9:22 AM, Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> 
> One of the smartest things my mother did was make me take typing in summer school one year.    Little did she or I knew that being able to type 60WPM was going to become a very important asset in my eventual career.  
> 
> 
My mother also insisted that I take typing as a summer school class because “In college you will have to type papers for your professors”. She having been a professor of English at Perdue University.
I took the class and failed because I would backspace and overstrike with the correct letter.
After I got to college I used UCSD Pascal and so typing a backspace to erase the previous letter was fine.

I returned to HS and told the typing instructor that I now type 40 WPM flawlessly because I use a computer, not something with paper. He was not impressed.

The HS replaced the IBM Selectrics with cheap PC clones the next year.

	David



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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 17:33     ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-02-06 17:47       ` Ron Natalie
@ 2021-02-06 22:38       ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-02-06 22:47         ` Niklas Karlsson
  2021-02-07 17:43         ` Mary Ann Horton
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2021-02-06 22:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, Mary Ann Horton wrote:

> I learned on a manual typewriter in 7th grade, but I got fast on a 
> keypunch. To this day i don't use the right shift key, because it didn't 
> work on a keypunch.

The 026 (ugh!), or the 029?

> At Berkeley, everybody was already a touch typist. That's why vi 
> commands emphasize lower case letters, especially hjkl which are right 
> under the home position. The original reason for hjkl was the ADM3A, but 
> when I added arrow key support to vi and disabled the hardcoded hjkl, a 
> line of grad students made me put it back.

I'm not surprised :-)  We were all playing "rogue" back then.  And my 
favourite terminal was indeed the ADM-3A; it just seemed to be designed 
for Unix, with the ESC key in the right place etc.

I still loathe the VT-220...

-- Dave, a fast two-finger typist (but with pinkie on RETURN)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 22:38       ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2021-02-06 22:47         ` Niklas Karlsson
  2021-02-07  0:25           ` John Cowan
  2021-02-07 17:43         ` Mary Ann Horton
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Niklas Karlsson @ 2021-02-06 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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Den lör 6 feb. 2021 kl 23:39 skrev Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org>:

> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
>
> > At Berkeley, everybody was already a touch typist. That's why vi
> > commands emphasize lower case letters, especially hjkl which are right
> > under the home position. The original reason for hjkl was the ADM3A, but
> > when I added arrow key support to vi and disabled the hardcoded hjkl, a
> > line of grad students made me put it back.
>
> I'm not surprised :-)  We were all playing "rogue" back then.  And my
> favourite terminal was indeed the ADM-3A; it just seemed to be designed
> for Unix, with the ESC key in the right place etc.
>

I'm probably a youngster in this crowd (no, I'm not calling you old farts,
more like people with a long history I respect and am willing to learn
from). Born in 1980. But I had similar reasons for feeling at home with
hjkl. In the 1980s (I think before I even started school) I got my hands on
what was then called HACK for MS-DOS, which of course later became NetHack.
So by the time I started playing with Linux and other *nixes in 2000, I
didn't have any real learning curve with basic vi usage.

Niklas

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 22:47         ` Niklas Karlsson
@ 2021-02-07  0:25           ` John Cowan
  2021-02-08 22:20             ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2021-02-07  0:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Niklas Karlsson; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 5:47 PM Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com>
wrote:


> I'm probably a youngster in this crowd (no, I'm not calling you old farts,
>> more like people with a long history I respect and am willing to learn
>> from).
>
>
In computer circles, that is what "old fart" means.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing
on my shoulders.  --Hal Abelson

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* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 22:38       ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-02-06 22:47         ` Niklas Karlsson
@ 2021-02-07 17:43         ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-02-07 19:28           ` Dan Cross
  2021-02-07 21:32           ` Nemo Nusquam
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-02-07 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


On 2/6/21 2:38 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
>
>> I learned on a manual typewriter in 7th grade, but I got fast on a 
>> keypunch. To this day i don't use the right shift key, because it 
>> didn't work on a keypunch.
>
> The 026 (ugh!), or the 029?
>
I had to Google for an image of the 026 - yuck!  The image of an 029 
matches what I recall.
>> At Berkeley, everybody was already a touch typist. That's why vi 
>> commands emphasize lower case letters, especially hjkl which are 
>> right under the home position. The original reason for hjkl was the 
>> ADM3A, but when I added arrow key support to vi and disabled the 
>> hardcoded hjkl, a line of grad students made me put it back.
>
> I'm not surprised :-)  We were all playing "rogue" back then.  And my 
> favourite terminal was indeed the ADM-3A; it just seemed to be 
> designed for Unix, with the ESC key in the right place etc.
>
I hated it when the PC-AT came along and moved Ctrl down and Esc up! I 
depend on Ctrl being to the left of A and Esc left of 1, where God 
intended them to be! I used a Sun keyboard with a DIN adapter for years, 
until I came to SDG&E in 2007 and discovered a cache of USB Sun 
keyboards, half with the UNIX layout (yay!) and half with the PC layout 
(boo!) Word got around quickly that I liked them, and I wound up with 
several UNIX layout Sun keyboards. For good measure, I bought a 10-pack 
on eBay, so I'll have spares until the day they peel my cold dead 
fingers away from my UNIX layout keyboard.

     Mary Ann


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07 17:43         ` Mary Ann Horton
@ 2021-02-07 19:28           ` Dan Cross
  2021-02-07 21:32           ` Nemo Nusquam
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2021-02-07 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mary Ann Horton; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1856 bytes --]

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 12:44 PM Mary Ann Horton <mah@mhorton.net> wrote:

> > I'm not surprised :-)  We were all playing "rogue" back then.  And my
> > favourite terminal was indeed the ADM-3A; it just seemed to be
> > designed for Unix, with the ESC key in the right place etc.
>
> I hated it when the PC-AT came along and moved Ctrl down and Esc up! I
> depend on Ctrl being to the left of A and Esc left of 1, where God
> intended them to be! I used a Sun keyboard with a DIN adapter for years,
> until I came to SDG&E in 2007 and discovered a cache of USB Sun
> keyboards, half with the UNIX layout (yay!) and half with the PC layout
> (boo!) Word got around quickly that I liked them, and I wound up with
> several UNIX layout Sun keyboards. For good measure, I bought a 10-pack
> on eBay, so I'll have spares until the day they peel my cold dead
> fingers away from my UNIX layout keyboard.
>

A few years ago I got to the point where my wrists just wouldn't take it
anymore.

I invested in an Evoluent vertical mouse (3 buttons! Well, really more than
that, but the three in the "correct" positions were the ones I cared about)
and a Kinesis Advantage keyboard. It took me about a week to learn how to
type on the Kinesis, but I can't imagine going back now. I remapped the
'Caps Lock' key to control so that I've got a Control key where one is
supposed to be, but the Esc key is a bit far away. It's not excessively so,
but it is mildly annoying. Still, RSI no longer wakes me up at night, so on
balance the tradeoff has been worth it.

Some colleagues have suggested learning the Dvorak layout; I splurged for
the Kinesis with the double QWERTY/Dvorak keycaps and a mode key and
(relevant to the question here) I found some typing tutor program that
would ostensibly teach me typing again. But like Morse code, it's never
stuck.

        - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07 17:43         ` Mary Ann Horton
  2021-02-07 19:28           ` Dan Cross
@ 2021-02-07 21:32           ` Nemo Nusquam
  2021-02-07 23:17             ` Henry Bent
  2021-02-08  5:29             ` Doug McIntyre
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Nemo Nusquam @ 2021-02-07 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 07/02/2021 12:43, Mary Ann Horton wrote (in part):
> I hated it when the PC-AT came along and moved Ctrl down and Esc up! I 
> depend on Ctrl being to the left of A and Esc left of 1, where God 
> intended them to be! I used a Sun keyboard with a DIN adapter for 
> years, until I came to SDG&E in 2007 and discovered a cache of USB Sun 
> keyboards, half with the UNIX layout (yay!) and half with the PC 
> layout (boo!) Word got around quickly that I liked them, and I wound 
> up with several UNIX layout Sun keyboards. For good measure, I bought 
> a 10-pack on eBay, so I'll have spares until the day they peel my cold 
> dead fingers away from my UNIX layout keyboard.
My Sun UNIX layout keyboards (and mice) work quite well with my Macs. I 
share your sentiments.

N.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07 21:32           ` Nemo Nusquam
@ 2021-02-07 23:17             ` Henry Bent
  2021-02-07 23:55               ` Steve Nickolas
  2021-02-08  5:29             ` Doug McIntyre
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2021-02-07 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nemo Nusquam; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1175 bytes --]

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 16:34 Nemo Nusquam <cym224@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 07/02/2021 12:43, Mary Ann Horton wrote (in part):
> > I hated it when the PC-AT came along and moved Ctrl down and Esc up! I
> > depend on Ctrl being to the left of A and Esc left of 1, where God
> > intended them to be! I used a Sun keyboard with a DIN adapter for
> > years, until I came to SDG&E in 2007 and discovered a cache of USB Sun
> > keyboards, half with the UNIX layout (yay!) and half with the PC
> > layout (boo!) Word got around quickly that I liked them, and I wound
> > up with several UNIX layout Sun keyboards. For good measure, I bought
> > a 10-pack on eBay, so I'll have spares until the day they peel my cold
> > dead fingers away from my UNIX layout keyboard.
> My Sun UNIX layout keyboards (and mice) work quite well with my Macs. I
> share your sentiments.
>

There was an early Apple ADB keyboard with control in the "right" place. I
had two and I used them for many years with ADB to USB adapters until the
keyboards became unreliable.

drakaware.com makes a variety of keyboard adapters, including a Sun to USB
if you just can't give up your Type 5 (or type 4!)

-Henry

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07 23:17             ` Henry Bent
@ 2021-02-07 23:55               ` Steve Nickolas
  2021-02-08  0:56                 ` Henry Bent
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2021-02-07 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list

On Sun, 7 Feb 2021, Henry Bent wrote:

> There was an early Apple ADB keyboard with control in the "right" place. I
> had two and I used them for many years with ADB to USB adapters until the
> keyboards became unreliable.

The one from the Apple IIgs?

-uso.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07 23:55               ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2021-02-08  0:56                 ` Henry Bent
  2021-02-08  5:15                   ` Erik E. Fair
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2021-02-08  0:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Steve Nickolas; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 510 bytes --]

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 18:55 Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Feb 2021, Henry Bent wrote:
>
> > There was an early Apple ADB keyboard with control in the "right" place.
> I
> > had two and I used them for many years with ADB to USB adapters until the
> > keyboards became unreliable.
>
> The one from the Apple IIgs?
>
> -uso.
>

Actually an M0116, same layout but intended for a Mac. I can't remember
where they came from originally - maybe a IIci or something of that vintage?

-Henry

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08  0:56                 ` Henry Bent
@ 2021-02-08  5:15                   ` Erik E. Fair
  2021-02-08  5:33                     ` Steve Nickolas
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Erik E. Fair @ 2021-02-08  5:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: The Unix Hysterical Society

The first Apple Desktop Bus (ADB) keyboard was for the Apple IIgs:

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_Desktop_Bus_Keyboard

and that lead to the same keyboard layout for the Mac II ADB keyboards (the Mac 128K, Fat Mac, and Mac Plus did not use ADB for their keyboards):

https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0116

That was the last Apple keyboard with the Control and Escape keys in the correct positions, particularly for those of us using Macs as terminals to Unix systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard (a reasonably full history).

I took a typing class in 7th grade (early 1970s) on heavy, manual Smith-Corona typewriters, more or less contemporaneously with learning to program in BASIC on a DG Nova batch system, using non-punched Hollerith cards - we marked them with #2 pencils, and woe is you if you didn't fill in the dots well enough
for your cards to be read by the card reader: correct your cards, and back of the batch queue for you!

After that, it was years pounding TTY ASR-33s (interactive BASIC, rather than batch), Hazeltine h1500, LSI ADM-3a, Heathkit h19, HP 2621, the occasional DEC VT100 or VT102 ... after being hired in July 1988 by Apple, I've typed on basically nothing but Apple keyboards, with very occasional flirtations with third-party ADB or USB keyboards.

I had a bad bout of repetitive strain injury (specifically, ulnar nerve syndrome - a cousin of carpal tunnel syndrome) in my left hand in the early 1990s, partly from pounding keyboards too hard for too long, and partly (I think) from wearing a Casio digital watch with the watchband cinched too tight (I hate floppy watch). I made three changes, after a month of PT and silly amounts of ibuprofen: velcro watch band/strap for near-infinite fine adjustment of fit (so as not to constrict my wrist), neoprene wrist rests in front of my keyboards, and training myself not to pound the keys so hard.

I still have a small stock of Apple M0116 keyboards, though I've capitulated to the IBM PC "typist" keyboard layout with Control in the incorrect position; I've been using the Apple A1243 (US) Aluminum USB extended keyboard (with some replacement stock) since its introduction in 2007, and I'm moderately happy with it: thin keyboard, no wrist rest required, light touch - no key pounding required. The A1843 (optionally wireless USB keyboard with "lightning" port and no USB hub) is an OK replacement, but I use it strictly wired. Laptop keyboards also want a lighter touch these days.

I'm glad I took the typing course, but I'm hardly a full touch typist. However, I'm fast enough that I prefer vi to emacs, as I've previously described. I'm not perfect, but that's what the backspace or DEL key is for (and, with a properly programmed tty line discipline: ^W (word erase)). Very glad I was already conversant with computers when it came time to write essays for UCB freshman English classes. That was also impetus to learn nroff.

	Erik

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07 21:32           ` Nemo Nusquam
  2021-02-07 23:17             ` Henry Bent
@ 2021-02-08  5:29             ` Doug McIntyre
  2021-02-08 20:41               ` Andrew Newman
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Doug McIntyre @ 2021-02-08  5:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 04:32:56PM -0500, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
> My Sun UNIX layout keyboards (and mice) work quite well with my Macs. I 
> share your sentiments.

Most of the bespoke mechanical keyboard makers will offer a dipswitch for
what happens to the left of the A, and with an option to print the
right value there, my keyboards work quite well the right way.

I did use the Sun Type5 USB Unix layout for quite some years, but I
always found it a but mushy, and liked it better switching back to 
mechanical keyboards with the proper layout.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08  5:15                   ` Erik E. Fair
@ 2021-02-08  5:33                     ` Steve Nickolas
  2021-02-08 15:54                       ` Will Senn
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Steve Nickolas @ 2021-02-08  5:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Erik E. Fair; +Cc: The Unix Hysterical Society

On Sun, 7 Feb 2021, Erik E. Fair wrote:

> The first Apple Desktop Bus (ADB) keyboard was for the Apple IIgs:
>
> https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_Desktop_Bus_Keyboard
>
> and that lead to the same keyboard layout for the Mac II ADB keyboards (the 
> Mac 128K, Fat Mac, and Mac Plus did not use ADB for their keyboards):
>
> https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0116
>
> That was the last Apple keyboard with the Control and Escape keys in the 
> correct positions, particularly for those of us using Macs as terminals to 
> Unix systems.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Keyboard (a reasonably full history).

I have an Apple Keyboard II, an M0487. The layout is kinda braindead, 
though good enough for its purpose, given that I only have the Mac it's 
connected to because I need a host for the //e card.

I prefer the actual //e layout. That's pretty close to the M layout, but 
~` is on the bottom about where Left Windows is on modern keyboards, and 
ESC, Ctrl and Caps Lock are where you guys would probably expect them. ;)

But I don't really mind Ctrl in the corners.

-uso.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08  5:33                     ` Steve Nickolas
@ 2021-02-08 15:54                       ` Will Senn
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Will Senn @ 2021-02-08 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 2/7/21 11:33 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>  have an Apple Keyboard II, an M0487. The layout is kinda braindead, 
> though good enough for its purpose, given that I only have the Mac 
> it's connected to because I need a host for the //e card.
>
> I prefer the actual //e layout. That's pretty close to the M layout, 
> but ~` is on the bottom about where Left Windows is on modern 
> keyboards, and ESC, Ctrl and Caps Lock are where you guys would 
> probably expect them. ;)
>
> But I don't really mind Ctrl in the corners.
>
> -uso.

I have a //e, I can't stand the layout :) - foreign to my PC & Modern 
Mac experience. I keep hitting Caps Lock instead of control and delete 
doesn't work - it's left arrow?! But I definitely like the way they 
feel. Very satisfying to get feedback on the key presses, reminds me of 
the IBM PC. I'm no fan of my macs' chicklets, but I'm used to them and 
they're worth the tradeoff of having macness over non-macness. My 
favorite keyboard though, amongst my current hardware, is my Lenovo T430 
Thinkpad, clean and clear and not mushy at all - too bad it's not a mac.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08  5:29             ` Doug McIntyre
@ 2021-02-08 20:41               ` Andrew Newman
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Newman @ 2021-02-08 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 8 Feb 2021, at 4:43 am, Mary Ann Horton <mah@mhorton.net> wrote:
> 
> I hated it when the PC-AT came along and moved Ctrl down and Esc up! I depend on Ctrl being to the left of A and Esc left of 1, where God intended them to be! I used a Sun keyboard with a DIN adapter for years, until I came to SDG&E in 2007 and discovered a cache of USB Sun keyboards, half with the UNIX layout (yay!) and half with the PC layout (boo!) Word got around quickly that I liked them, and I wound up with several UNIX layout Sun keyboards. For good measure, I bought a 10-pack on eBay, so I'll have spares until the day they peel my cold dead fingers away from my UNIX layout keyboard.

As a long time emacs user that change drives me nuts but thankfully re-mapping
makes things usable - cap-lock -> ctrl, swap left-alt and Windows-key (meta).

BTW if you like buckling springs Unicomp make a Sun layout keyboard that looks
okay - https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA (larger image at
https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/Sun%20Keyboard1000x1000_800x800.png )

I’ve been using their IBM layout keyboards for years (mostly on Macs) and found them
reliable and great to type on. But YMMV of course. If I were in the USA I’d get one
of these Sun layout boards in an instant but shipping one to Australia costs more the
keyboard which irks me enough to say no (at least for the time being).


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-06 18:56     ` David Barto
@ 2021-02-08 21:50       ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-02-09 16:29         ` Mary Ann Horton
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 31+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2021-02-08 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, David Barto wrote:

> The HS replaced the IBM Selectrics with cheap PC clones the next year.

The Selectric was the best typewriter ever; it just felt "natural".  I was 
about in love with our secretary as she was with her typewriter :-)

No; I happened to meet some other bird...

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-07  0:25           ` John Cowan
@ 2021-02-08 22:20             ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-02-08 22:58               ` David Barto
  2021-02-08 23:01               ` Clem Cole
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2021-02-08 22:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, John Cowan wrote:

> > I'm probably a youngster in this crowd (no, I'm not calling you old 
> > farts, more like people with a long history I respect and am willing 
> > to learn from).

> In computer circles, that is what "old fart" means.

I know that I'm gonna be outclassed here, but I taught myself BASIC, 
ALGOL, and FORTRAN (ugh! well, it was WATFOR then WATFIV) from my school 
days in the late 60s onwards.

COBOL tried to be drilled into me, but I firmly rejected it (but for some 
odd reason I still know it, but deny all knowledge of it).

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08 22:20             ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2021-02-08 22:58               ` David Barto
  2021-02-08 23:01               ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: David Barto @ 2021-02-08 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

In HS COBOL was the only programming class offered. We punched the cards and got overnight service from the data center for the district. When I was a senior we got an ASR-33 that talked to a Honeywell at a local uni. With it we could login and run Basic programs.

Real programming (APL, FORTRAN, UCSD Pascal, IBM 360 Assembly) awaited for me at UCSD.

	David

> On Feb 8, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, John Cowan wrote:
> 
>> > I'm probably a youngster in this crowd (no, I'm not calling you old > farts, more like people with a long history I respect and am willing > to learn from).
> 
>> In computer circles, that is what "old fart" means.
> 
> I know that I'm gonna be outclassed here, but I taught myself BASIC, ALGOL, and FORTRAN (ugh! well, it was WATFOR then WATFIV) from my school days in the late 60s onwards.
> 
> COBOL tried to be drilled into me, but I firmly rejected it (but for some odd reason I still know it, but deny all knowledge of it).
> 
> -- Dave


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08 22:20             ` Dave Horsfall
  2021-02-08 22:58               ` David Barto
@ 2021-02-08 23:01               ` Clem Cole
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2021-02-08 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1196 bytes --]

On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 5:21 PM Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> wrote:

> I know that I'm gonna be outclassed here, but I taught myself BASIC,
> ALGOL, and FORTRAN (ugh! well, it was WATFOR then WATFIV) from my school
> days in the late 60s onwards.
>
Many much older and more experienced than I on this list.  I'm a relative
youngster that started in the late 1960s.  So Dave, I have to say, ditto,
but I will add a couple of assemblers to the early list (360 BAL, HP2000,
and PDP-8 and 10).  My father showed me the GE-635 assembler in
probably 1968, but I never managed to write anything meaningful in it.

>
> COBOL tried to be drilled into me, but I firmly rejected it (but for some
> odd reason I still know it, but deny all knowledge of it).
>
Funny, I dodged COBOL, but not PL/1 and APL. With the latter, I maintained
the York/APL interpreter on TSS for a bit.  I also saw a number of
languages on the 10's like SAIL, SNOBOL, and over course BLISS.  All before
I saw C on the Fifth Edition of UNIX.  As I've said before, when I first
saw it, I was not impressed.  Little did I know Dennis and Ken would rot my
brain - (and I'm thankful that they did).

Clem
ᐧ

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Typing tutors
  2021-02-08 21:50       ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2021-02-09 16:29         ` Mary Ann Horton
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Mary Ann Horton @ 2021-02-09 16:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


On 2/8/21 1:50 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021, David Barto wrote:
>
>> The HS replaced the IBM Selectrics with cheap PC clones the next year.
>
> The Selectric was the best typewriter ever; it just felt "natural".
> -- Dave

I totally agree about the Selectric keyboard. As a grad student, I 
looked for keyboards that felt like a Selectric, and considered 
considered it a requirement to have tactile feedback when I hit a key.

Sadly now, "chiclet" keyboards are considered the gold standard, and two 
thumbs on a phone is the new Mavis Beacon.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-02-09 16:30 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 31+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-02-06  2:57 [TUHS] Typing tutors Will Senn
2021-02-06 16:55 ` Clem Cole
2021-02-06 17:22   ` Ron Natalie
2021-02-06 17:29     ` Clem Cole
2021-02-06 17:33     ` Mary Ann Horton
2021-02-06 17:47       ` Ron Natalie
2021-02-06 18:06         ` Clem Cole
2021-02-06 22:38       ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-06 22:47         ` Niklas Karlsson
2021-02-07  0:25           ` John Cowan
2021-02-08 22:20             ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-08 22:58               ` David Barto
2021-02-08 23:01               ` Clem Cole
2021-02-07 17:43         ` Mary Ann Horton
2021-02-07 19:28           ` Dan Cross
2021-02-07 21:32           ` Nemo Nusquam
2021-02-07 23:17             ` Henry Bent
2021-02-07 23:55               ` Steve Nickolas
2021-02-08  0:56                 ` Henry Bent
2021-02-08  5:15                   ` Erik E. Fair
2021-02-08  5:33                     ` Steve Nickolas
2021-02-08 15:54                       ` Will Senn
2021-02-08  5:29             ` Doug McIntyre
2021-02-08 20:41               ` Andrew Newman
2021-02-06 18:56     ` David Barto
2021-02-08 21:50       ` Dave Horsfall
2021-02-09 16:29         ` Mary Ann Horton
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2017-04-06  2:15 [TUHS] I just noticed all the cfont aka C++ in research Jason Stevens
2017-04-06  2:20 ` Noel Hunt
2017-04-06  2:21   ` Jason Stevens
2017-04-06  6:57 ` [TUHS] Unix emacs at Bell Labs and elsewhere Erik E. Fair

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