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* [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
@ 2020-07-16  4:17 Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-16  4:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Unix Heritage Society


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Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux that's from '91~'92?

Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the 
associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?

I've managed to find a copy of 0.98.pl5-31 bootable root disk.  But I 
can't find any base disks to go along with it.

The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and 
basedisk subdirectories.

Unfortunately all of the mirrors I'm finding of tsx-11 are newer, have 
the basedisk directories, but no image files there in.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
  2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: John Gilmore @ 2020-07-17  1:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society

> The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
> basedisk subdirectories.

There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
seem to include the directories you want:

  https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3

The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?

Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
of the tsx-11 archives.

Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
seemingly because it was never accessible via http?

	John
	

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
@ 2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17  1:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Gilmore; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor

I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
follow up, they are gone.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
> > basedisk subdirectories.
> 
> There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> seem to include the directories you want:
> 
>   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
> 
> The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
> Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
> 
> Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> of the tsx-11 archives.
> 
> Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
> seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
> 
> 	John
> 	

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
                         ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17  3:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Gilmore; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor

I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.

It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.

H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.  

Does anyone know where he is?  I can go look if that helps.

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
> a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
> follow up, they are gone.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
> > > basedisk subdirectories.
> > 
> > There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> > along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> > seem to include the directories you want:
> > 
> >   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
> > 
> > The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
> > Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
> > 
> > Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> > turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> > of the tsx-11 archives.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
> > seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
> > 
> > 	John
> > 	
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
  2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
  2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Random832 @ 2020-07-17  5:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020, at 23:35, Larry McVoy wrote:
> I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.

The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:

http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/

As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
@ 2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17  5:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy, John Gilmore; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor

It was InfoMagic and that set is Linux Developer Resources. You can find
some releases of it on archive.org. I hunt it and similar sets to try to
reconstruct Linux libc release history.

But this is off topic for this list.

Petr Titera

Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 5:35 Larry McVoy napsal(a):
> I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
> 
> It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
> buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
> 
> H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.  
> 
> Does anyone know where he is?  I can go look if that helps.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
>> a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
>> follow up, they are gone.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
>>>> The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk and
>>>> basedisk subdirectories.
>>>
>>> There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
>>> along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
>>> seem to include the directories you want:
>>>
>>>   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
>>>
>>> The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD images.
>>> Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
>>>
>>> Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
>>> turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
>>> of the tsx-11 archives.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled tsx-11.mit.edu,
>>> seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
>>>
>>> 	John
>>> 	
>>
>> -- 
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
  2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17  5:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Larry McVoy; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society, Grant Taylor


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I usually think of him and Theodore Ts'o in the same context (which is to
say, tsx-11/MIT), so perhaps he would know?  LinkedIn claims he's at Intel
somewhere in the Bay area, but his employment there dates (LinkedIn claims)
to 2003...so, possible, or maybe he just dropped off the radar sometime
between then and now.

Adam

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 8:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:

> I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
>
> It predated redhat so it was huge back in the day, way better to
> buy that than spend a bizillion days on ftp over a modem.
>
> H.J. Lu's stuff was on it.
>
> Does anyone know where he is?  I can go look if that helps.
>
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:59:14PM -0700, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > I have to go look but I think I might have this on CD.  I used to have
> > a drawer full of install cds that went back to the 1990's.  If I don't
> > follow up, they are gone.
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 06:40:45PM -0700, John Gilmore wrote:
> > > > The files used to be on tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/GCC in rootdisk
> and
> > > > basedisk subdirectories.
> > >
> > > There's a copy of the tsx-11 archives in the Internet Archive here,
> > > along with 8 other archival CDs from Pacific HiTech, but it doesn't
> > > seem to include the directories you want:
> > >
> > >   https://archive.org/details/OfficialRedHatCommercialLiNUXV3.0.3
> > >
> > > The same item also has a copy of the old Sunsite archive on 4 CD
> images.
> > > Was there a mirror of H.J. Lu's early stuff in sunsite?
> > >
> > > Searching for "tsx-11" in the search box at the Internet Archive
> > > turns up half a dozen (typically CDROM .ISO) images of various copies
> > > of the tsx-11 archives.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the Internet Archive never directly crawled
> tsx-11.mit.edu,
> > > seemingly because it was never accessible via http?
> > >
> > >     John
> > >
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy                        lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>

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* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
@ 2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 20:37   ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17  5:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the 
> associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?

I manged to find something after sending the email last night.  But I'm 
having trouble accessing them.  As such, I'm still interested to know if 
other people have a copy.

I say trouble accessing them because the HJ 0.99pl7 Bootable Root disk 
can't mount the XiaFS base disk images.  Further, when I try to mount 
them from Slackware 3.1 ('96) after loading the XiaFS module, things 
don't work correctly.  df shows that there is different amounts of 
content on the three base disk images.  But doing an ls on the mount 
point returns an error.  (I don't have the error handy.)

Someone responded to me on Twitter this morning with a link to some 
other files, but I've not yet had an opportunity to try them.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17  5:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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On 7/16/20 11:23 PM, Petr Titěra wrote:
> But this is off topic for this list.

Why is this off topic for this list?

Is it because I'm trying to find software?  Or is it because it's a 
question about Linux?

I'd like to point out that I'm asking about software that is decidedly 
in the broad category of unix and unix like operating systems.  Note the 
lower case u to avoid any licensing issues.  Further, I'm asking about a 
unix (if you will) from 1991, which actually predates 2.11BSD from 1992. 
  I suspect that Warner's discussions about 2.11BSD are decidedly on topic.

So, I ask, why is this off topic for this list?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17  6:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor, tuhs



Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 7:41 Grant Taylor via TUHS napsal(a):
> On 7/16/20 11:23 PM, Petr Titěra wrote:
>> But this is off topic for this list.
> 
> Why is this off topic for this list?
> 
> Is it because I'm trying to find software?  Or is it because it's a
> question about Linux?

No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history as
off topic communication. If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.

Petr Titera

> > I'd like to point out that I'm asking about software that is decidedly
> in the broad category of unix and unix like operating systems.  Note the
> lower case u to avoid any licensing issues.  Further, I'm asking about a
> unix (if you will) from 1991, which actually predates 2.11BSD from 1992.
>  I suspect that Warner's discussions about 2.11BSD are decidedly on topic.
> 
> So, I ask, why is this off topic for this list?
> 
> 
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
@ 2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
  2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Ron Pool @ 2020-07-17 13:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Random832, TUHS

On 7/17/20, 1:28 AM, "TUHS on behalf of Random832" <tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org on behalf of random832@fastmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020, at 23:35, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > I looked, don't have it.  There was a red 4 CD set, I want to say it
> > was ImageMagick but that's the graphics program.  It was a 4 cd set
> > of at least one Linux distro and a boat load of open source stuff.
>
> The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:
>
> http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/
>
> As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.

FYI, you can get listings of contents of most ISOs, DMGs, ZIPs, etc that are on archive.org.  If you visit an archive.org page like https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, then in the DOWNLOAD OPTIONS section you can click SHOW ALL and that will display a list of all files (including ISOs) that archive.org has squirrelled away, like this:

  Name                                Last modified      Size
  Go to parent directory
  README                              18-Dec-2012 01:48    8.8K
  cdrom-ldr-0694_archive.torrent      01-Sep-2016 14:02   26.8K
  cdrom-ldr-0694_files.xml            21-Jun-2020 06:17    1.6K
  cdrom-ldr-0694_meta.xml             21-Jun-2020 06:17    2.4K
  ldr_0694_disc1.iso (View Contents)  18-Dec-2012 01:43  637.4M
  ldr_0694_disc2.iso (View Contents)  18-Dec-2012 01:44  646.5M
                          
Click on one of the (View Contents) links to view a listing of all files in that archive.  Works for at least .iso, .DMG, .zip, .tar.
                  
-- Ron      



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
                                 ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
> No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history 
> as off topic communication.

Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?

> If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.

I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are 
some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) 
related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my 
comment in my original post.

I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix 
history.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 17:42                 ` [TUHS] Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks] salewski
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 09:12:23AM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Tit?ra wrote:
> >No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history as off
> >topic communication.
> 
> Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
> 
> >If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
> 
> I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are some in
> the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) related to
> it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my comment in my
> original post.
> 
> I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
> history.

Me too.  For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this list but it is
probably up to Warren to decide.

I came from BSD roots, SunOS, but I've been using Linux since maybe 
1994 or 95 as my daily desktop/laptop (and yes, it was pretty sketchy
back then, I've been playing with Linux since before it had TCP/IP,
it's gotten a lot better).

I think there are some legit complaints about Linux but a lot of those
could be said about BSD.  Bell Labs Unix was very terse, they took less
is more as far as you can.  Linux was far more pragmatic, the Linux
/proc is nothing like AT&T /proc, Linux is all strings and has tons
of info and knobs that /proc didn't have.  AT&T /proc is about processes
and Linux /proc is a generic bunghole where you can see everything and
control everything.  It's a bit much but in general, I like the Linux
/proc, it's pleasant being able to poke around without having the write
a C program to grovel through the binary data structures.

That said, /proc came from the time of 100mhz processors, the idea that
you were going to parse all those strings probably gave people heartburn
then.  Now it is fine.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 17:26               ` Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
                                   ` (2 more replies)
  2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
  2 siblings, 3 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2020-07-17 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:13 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
> > No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history
> > as off topic communication.
>
> Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
>

I'd like to know as well...


> > If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
>
> I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are
> some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly)
> related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my
> comment in my original post.
>
> I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
> history.
>

I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I
recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* [TUHS] Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks]
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
@ 2020-07-17 17:42                 ` salewski
  2020-07-17 17:47                   ` Sergio Pedraja
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: salewski @ 2020-07-17 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Unix Heritage Society

On 2020-07-17 10:19:16, Larry McVoy spake thus:
> For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this list but it is
> probably up to Warren to decide.

+1


-- 
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1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks]
  2020-07-17 17:42                 ` [TUHS] Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks] salewski
@ 2020-07-17 17:47                   ` Sergio Pedraja
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Sergio Pedraja @ 2020-07-17 17:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Unix Heritage Society


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+1 too

El vie., 17 jul. 2020 19:44, <salewski@att.net> escribió:

> On 2020-07-17 10:19:16, Larry McVoy spake thus:
> > For the record, I'm fine with Linux on this list but it is
> > probably up to Warren to decide.
>
> +1
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> a l a n   d.   s a l e w s k i                   salewski@att.net
> 1024D/FA2C3588 EDFA 195F EDF1 0933 1002  6396 7C92 5CB3 FA2C 3588
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2020-07-17 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list; +Cc: Grant Taylor

> 
> I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
> 

I count Linux as a Unix.  It certainly ACTS a lot more like one (and did from day one) than, say, early AIX.

Early Linux was kind of where I came in, so I feel like I actually might have a bit to contribute if we’re talking about it here.

Adam

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
  2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 18:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


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At the risk of the probably deserved flames for replying to my own 
original post....

On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> Is it okay for me to ask a question about Linux that's from '91~'92?

It sounds like Linux, as a history / development there of, is generally 
on topic.  Obviously pending comments from Warren.

But I do think that we probably want to avoid turning this into a 
general Linux support forum.  There are many of those already and we 
don't need yet another one.

Just my 2¢ worth.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Warner Losh
@ 2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Harald Arnesen @ 2020-07-17 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Grant Taylor via TUHS [17.07.2020 17:12]:

> I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are 
> some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things (directly) 
> related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my 
> comment in my original post.

Dennis Richie seemed to think Linux was a worthy descendant:
<http://www.linuxfocus.org/English/July1999/article79.html>
-- 
Hilsen Harald

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
@ 2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
  2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17 20:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh, Grant Taylor; +Cc: TUHS main list



Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 19:26 Warner Losh napsal(a):
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 9:13 AM Grant Taylor via TUHS
> <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
> 
>     On 7/17/20 12:04 AM, Petr Titěra wrote:
>     > No, I consider my effort to reconstruct Linux libc release history
>     > as off topic communication.
> 
>     Interesting.  Where can I learn more about your work efforts?
> 
> 
> I'd like to know as well...
>  

I will post nearly same list I did send Grant off-list.


This is what I have now (I can provide full listing):

libc-5.4 - quite good coverage some versions only as a patch against
previous version but I was able to find most original distribution
source and binary archives

libc-5.3 - most versions only as patch against older versions (this was
short live series)

libc-5.2 - not much of it was preserved on the net, again short lived
series mostly patches but with wide gaps

libc-5.1 - one of the shortest series (only 4 releases) again I have
mostly patches

libc-5.0 - first used ELF series. I have mostly diffs of it. with only
one full release

libc-4.8 - transitional release to ELF. there was only one version of it
and I think it was never widely used in production. (you must be careful
here as there is another libc4.8 series which is completely different)

libc-4.7 - this was last official a.out series I've got most releases of it

In addition to above I was even able to find CVS repository containing
all changes from 4.6.27 to 5.4.46. Previous repository was unfortunately
destroyed when computer of H.J.Lu crashed on April 6th 1994.

Before version 4.7 thing get worse. These versions are oldest and they
were not archived. Sometimes you can find bits of binaries of those
versions in old Linux distributions but mostly on binary form. Another
problem is that CDs started to be mass published only around 1993 and
you will not find a lot of mirrors so old.

libc-4.6 - I have only few full releases and just some bits like diffs
of includes or release notes

libc-4.5 - only some bits and patches. You can easily find CVS
repository with commits of releases 4.5.7-4.5.19 (not development
repository, just release by release pushed into CVS) as a side note same
author created CVS repository of linux versions from  LINUX_0_99_14 to
LINUX_0_99_15I but these releases are quite easy to find

libc-4.4 - again not much one full release and some bits

libc-4.3 - one full release and some bits

libc-4.2 - only some fixes from mailing lists

libc-4.1 - it seem that I have source of it but nothing more

Versions before 4.1 were released together with compiler

libc-2.2 - only one release, nothing more

libc-1.4 - I have some sources claiming to be package for gcc 1.4 from
1992 but I do not know its exact source (it contains copyright of DJ
Delorie and I do not know if it was distributed with that copyright at
that time). It seems to me that I found GCC binary for this library too
but I was not able to test it.

libc-0.12 - I do not know much about this version.

I did not try to collect binutils for those libraries (I was mostly
after sources) but as I tend to mirror whole tree I think I will get a
lot of those too.

Petr Titera


> 
>     > If someone think otherwise I would be wery glad.
> 
>     I'm decidedly not an authority on the matter.  But I think there are
>     some in the global Unix community that shun Linux, and things
>     (directly)
>     related to it because it's not a Unix descended from AT&T.  Hence my
>     comment in my original post.
> 
>     I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
>     history.
> 
> 
> I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what
> I recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
> 
> Warner

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-17 20:37   ` Petr Titěra
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Petr Titěra @ 2020-07-17 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor, tuhs



Dne 17. 7. 2020 v 7:30 Grant Taylor via TUHS napsal(a):
> On 7/15/20 10:17 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
>> Does anyone happen to have copies of H.J. Lu's Bootable Root and the
>> associated Linux Base System disk images from the early '90s?
> 
> I manged to find something after sending the email last night.  But I'm
> having trouble accessing them.  As such, I'm still interested to know if
> other people have a copy.
> 
> I say trouble accessing them because the HJ 0.99pl7 Bootable Root disk
> can't mount the XiaFS base disk images.  Further, when I try to mount
> them from Slackware 3.1 ('96) after loading the XiaFS module, things
> don't work correctly.  df shows that there is different amounts of
> content on the three base disk images.  But doing an ls on the mount
> point returns an error.  (I don't have the error handy.)

There were some inconsistencies with XiaFS at that time. See this note
from release notes:

  NOTE: If you are using this rootdisk for the kernel 0.99 pl7 and
xiafs. you should run "xfsck -a /dev/xxxxx" on your xiafs partitions
after booting this rootdisk from the floppy drive first. After you have
done that, YOU HAVE TO USE THE KERNEL ON THIS DISK TO ACCESS YOUR XIAFS
PARTITIONS. Please read LILO docs for how to do it. You have to use the
kernel built with Frank Xia's patch for 0.99 pl 7, which is appended
below. THIS PATCH IS ONLY NEEDED BY THE KERNEL 0.99 pl 7. DON'T USE IT
ON ANY OTHER KERNELS.

Petr


> > Someone responded to me on Twitter this morning with a link to some
> other files, but I've not yet had an opportunity to try them.
> 
> 
> 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 17:26               ` [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Warner Losh
  2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
  2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
@ 2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: A. P. Garcia @ 2020-07-17 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list, Grant Taylor


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On Fri, Jul 17, 2020, 1:27 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
> I would love to find a forum for Linux history like TUHS is for Unix
>> history.
>>
>
> I would too... The early days were fun to live through, but much of what I
> recall from the time isn't mentioned much, if at all, anymore.
>
> Warner
>

Those days were fun. I just went down memory lane with the book "Rebel
Code" by Glyn Moody. Good stuff.

How different those days were, for me at least. I was just a Linux
advocate, enthusiast, and hobbyist until 2000 or so, when I started work as
a sysadmin. Red Hat Enterprise Linux was not yet a thing. It was just Red
Hat, i.e. just another distro, just one voice of many that were shaping the
future of the OS. Nowadays, in the corporate world at least, Red Hat IS
Linux, or rather, Linux is whatever Red Hat says it is.

That isn't entirely a bad thing. Gentoo is great for my personal use, in
the same way that FreeBSD is. But if I have to support a few hundred
servers, I'd rather do it with vSphere, RHEL, and Ansible.

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
  2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
@ 2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-17 23:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1018 bytes --]

On 7/16/20 11:18 PM, Random832 wrote:
> The CD collection was called InfoMagic, and when he posted his question 
> on Twitter I was able to find a mirror here:
> 
> http://grumbeer.dyndns.org/ftp/servers/sunsite/1994-06-28/GCC/basedisk/

Unfortunately, neither rootdisk that I've found, 0.98.pl5-31 nor 
0.99.pl14, will access any of the basedisks that I've found.

They will mount, df shows that there is data on them.  But ls says that 
there's no "." file or I get an "XIA-FS: bad directory entry (dir.c 91)" 
error message.

> As for the internet archive, the CD *might* be this one 
> https://archive.org/details/cdrom-ldr-0694, these entries don't seem 
> to be very well tagged or have listings of contents.

I get the same type of errors from this disk too.

I downloaded all the LDR that I could find on I.A. and looked through 
them.  Only '94-06 has basedisk images on them.

I have yet to be able to access any data on any basedisk sets.  :-/



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
@ 2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
  2020-07-21 17:49             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread
From: tytso @ 2020-07-21  4:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Grant Taylor; +Cc: tuhs

Sorry for not responding on this thread earlier; I've been pretty
swamped lately.

Xiafs was introduced at about the same time of ext2; Wikipedia states that

   "Initially, Xiafs was more stable than ext2, but being a fairly
   minimalistic modification of the MINIX file system, it was not very
   well suited for future extension."

The first part wasn't quite accurate.  It turns out that xiafs had the
same bug as ext2, but ext2 had the necessary sanity checking so that
it actually issued a warning when the bug was triggered, where xiafs
just silently corrupted the file system.

The real issue was that xiafs was mostly a one-person show (namely
Frank Xia) and he suffered blowback when he tried to rename xiafs to
linuxfs, which was interpreted by many as a marketing effort --- about
as tone-deaf as Stallman trying to jawbone people to rename "Linux" to
"LiGNUx" ten years later.

And xiafs was technically worse compared to ext2, and ext2 had a
larger number of developers.  So xiafs never really stood much of a
chance.

Also, by that point, very few people were actually using HJ's
boot/root disks.  Most developers had moved on to the MCC distribution
by that time, since it was more comprehensive, and it was easier to
bootstrap a working development system.

So to be honest, I had never noticed that HJ was trying to use xiafs
in his boot/root disks.

Cheers,

					- Ted

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
@ 2020-07-21 17:49             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS @ 2020-07-21 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2554 bytes --]

On 7/20/20 10:15 PM, tytso@mit.edu wrote:
> Sorry for not responding on this thread earlier; I've been pretty 
> swamped lately.

Better late than never.

I've found that truly interesting threads on TUHS, COFF, cctalk, et al. 
tend to go on for weeks.

> Xiafs was introduced at about the same time of ext2; Wikipedia 
> states that
> 
>     "Initially, Xiafs was more stable than ext2, but being a fairly
>     minimalistic modification of the MINIX file system, it was not very
>     well suited for future extension."
> 
> The first part wasn't quite accurate.  It turns out that xiafs had 
> the same bug as ext2, but ext2 had the necessary sanity checking so 
> that it actually issued a warning when the bug was triggered, where 
> xiafs just silently corrupted the file system.

Now I'm curious what said bug was.

> The real issue was that xiafs was mostly a one-person show (namely 
> Frank Xia) and he suffered blowback when he tried to rename xiafs 
> to linuxfs, which was interpreted by many as a marketing effort --- 
> about as tone-deaf as Stallman trying to jawbone people to rename 
> "Linux" to "LiGNUx" ten years later.

Hum.  :-/

To be perfectly honest, I hadn't heard of Xia-FS until I started messing 
with H.J. Lu's bootable root disk.  I started messing with Linux in late 
'90s.  By then, everything was ext2.

> And xiafs was technically worse compared to ext2, and ext2 had a larger 
> number of developers.  So xiafs never really stood much of a chance.

That makes sense, retrospectively.

> Also, by that point, very few people were actually using HJ's boot/root 
> disks.  Most developers had moved on to the MCC distribution by that 
> time, since it was more comprehensive, and it was easier to bootstrap 
> a working development system.

Ya.  It seems as if H.J. Lu's disk had largely fallen to the annals of 
history by '95.  MCC and SLS had come and gone, being replaced with 
Slackware and Debian by the time that I started messing with Linux.

> So to be honest, I had never noticed that HJ was trying to use xiafs 
> in his boot/root disks.

I can't guarantee that H.J. Lu used xiafs for his bootable root disk.  I 
want to say that he was using the minux file system.  It's the base disk 
images that seem to be using xiafs.

I've found a treasure trove of old Linux disk images on OldLinux [1] and 
am messing with them in Bochs.  (Bochs is working out better than 
VirtualBox.)

[1] http://www.oldlinux.org/



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 18:08 Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Larry McVoy @ 2020-07-17 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

I agree but the purists will say linux is more like minux or other
rewrites from scratch.  All the other stuff listed below that isn't
Linux, all traces back to v7, v6, etc.

Given that Linux is so wide spread, yeah, it would be nice to have a
place for old fuddy duddies like me to smack our gums and say "sonny
boy, you and your fancy TCP/IP, a modem was good enough for me and it
was uphill in both directions" :-)

Actually, TCP/IP was awesome when we got it.  Modems were better than
nothing but they sucked until they were fast enough for SLIP.

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 02:08:31PM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
> origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history
> just as well as those of Research UNIX or BSD or
> SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 or SunOS or IRIX or Ultrix or
> Tru64-compaqted-HPSauce or whatever.  It all stems
> from the same roots, despite the protestations of
> purists from all sides.
> 
> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!
> 
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> 
> * One of Peter Weinberger's sayings that I still
> enjoy overusing.

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
  2020-07-17 18:08 Norman Wilson
@ 2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-17 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society


[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 543 bytes --]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 2:10 PM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org> wrote:


> Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
> him I will say: Ploooogie!
>

Is that the plural of Plugh?


John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big
thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script.  One of the geologists
came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too.
Try hanging up and phoning in again.'  --Beverly Erlebacher

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks
@ 2020-07-17 18:08 Norman Wilson
  2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2020-07-17 18:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

In my humble-but-correct opinion*, Linux and its
origins fit into the general topic of UNIX history
just as well as those of Research UNIX or BSD or
SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2.2 or SunOS or IRIX or Ultrix or
Tru64-compaqted-HPSauce or whatever.  It all stems
from the same roots, despite the protestations of
purists from all sides.

Warren gets final say, of course, but to encourage
him I will say: Ploooogie!

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

* One of Peter Weinberger's sayings that I still
enjoy overusing.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 28+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-16  4:17 [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17  1:40 ` John Gilmore
2020-07-17  1:59   ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17  3:35     ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17  5:18       ` Random832
2020-07-17 13:12         ` Ron Pool
2020-07-17 23:50         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-21  4:15           ` tytso
2020-07-21 17:49             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17  5:23       ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17  5:41         ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17  6:04           ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17 15:12             ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 17:19               ` Larry McVoy
2020-07-17 17:42                 ` [TUHS] Linux on TUHS [was: H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks] salewski
2020-07-17 17:47                   ` Sergio Pedraja
2020-07-17 17:26               ` [TUHS] H.J. Lu Bootable Root & Base System disks Warner Losh
2020-07-17 17:50                 ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17 20:16                 ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17 21:48                 ` A. P. Garcia
2020-07-17 19:46               ` Harald Arnesen
2020-07-17  5:24       ` Adam Thornton
2020-07-17  5:30 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 20:37   ` Petr Titěra
2020-07-17 18:16 ` Grant Taylor via TUHS
2020-07-17 18:08 Norman Wilson
2020-07-17 18:14 ` John Cowan
2020-07-17 18:19 ` Larry McVoy

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