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* [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
@ 2019-10-03 18:51 Finn O'Leary
  2019-10-03 19:30 ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-05 17:29 ` Michael Kjörling
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Finn O'Leary @ 2019-10-03 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Hi, I remember that someone had recovered some ancient /etc/passwd files
and had decrypted(?) them, and I remember reading that either ken or 
dmr's
password was something interesting like './,..,/' (it was entirely
punctuation characters, was around three different characters in total, 
and
was pretty damn short). I've tried to find this since, as a friend was
interested in it, and I cannot for the life of me find it!

Do any of you remember or have a link? :)
Thanks!

--
"Too enough is always not much!"

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 18:51 [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files Finn O'Leary
@ 2019-10-03 19:30 ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-03 20:41   ` Finn O'Leary
  2019-10-05 18:05   ` Tom Jones
  2019-10-05 17:29 ` Michael Kjörling
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2019-10-03 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Finn O'Leary; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Finn O'Leary <finnoleary@inventati.org> writes:

> Hi, I remember that someone had recovered some ancient /etc/passwd files
> and had decrypted(?) them, and I remember reading that either ken or
> dmr's
> password was something interesting like './,..,/' (it was entirely
> punctuation characters, was around three different characters in
> total, and
> was pretty damn short). I've tried to find this since, as a friend was
> interested in it, and I cannot for the life of me find it!

I did this once, but I never managed to crack all of them.
It was bwk who used /.,/.,

My findings (from https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/BSD-3-Snapshot-Development/etc/passwd):

gfVwhuAMF0Trw:dmac
Pb1AmSpsVPG0Y:uio
ymVglQZjbWYDE:/.,/.,
c8UdIntIZCUIA:bourne
AAZk9Aj5/Ue0E:foobar
E9i8fWghn1p/I:apr1744
IIVxQSvq1V9R2:axolotl
9EZLtSYjeEABE:network
P0CHBwE/mB51k:whatnot
Nc3IkFJyW2u7E:...hello
olqH1vDqH38aw:sacristy
9ULn5cWTc0b9E:sherril.
N33.MCNcTh5Qw:uucpuucp
FH83PFo4z55cU:wendy!!!
OVCPatZ8RFmFY:cowperso
X.ZNnZrciWauE:5%ghj
IL2bmGECQJgbk:pdq;dq
4BkcEieEtjWXI:jilland1
8PYh/dUBQT9Ss:theik!!!
lj1vXnxTAPnDc:sn74193n

But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole
8 letter lowercase + special symbols key space.

The uncracked ones are:

ozalp:m5syt3.lB5LAE:40:10:& Babaoglu,4156423806:/usr/ozalp:/bin/csh
hpk:9ycwM8mmmcp4Q:9:10:Howard Katseff,2019495337:/usr/staff/hpk:/bin/csh
tbl:cBWEbG59spEmM:10:10:Tom London,2019492006:/usr/staff/tbl
ken:ZghOT0eRm4U9s:52:10:& Thompson:/usr/staff/ken
fabry:d9B17PTU2RTlM:305:10:Bob &,4156422714:/usr/staff/fabry:/bin/csh

Any help is welcome.

-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 19:30 ` Leah Neukirchen
@ 2019-10-03 20:41   ` Finn O'Leary
  2019-10-03 22:04     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  2019-10-03 23:24     ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-05 18:05   ` Tom Jones
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Finn O'Leary @ 2019-10-03 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leah Neukirchen; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On 2019-10-03 19:30, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
> I did this once, but I never managed to crack all of them.
> It was bwk who used /.,/.,
> 
> My findings (from
> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/BSD-3-Snapshot-Development/etc/passwd):
> 
> [ ... ]

Interesting~! Thank you for the quick response :)

> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole
> 8 letter lowercase + special symbols key space.
> [ ... ]
> Any help is welcome.

I'm not even sure how I would go about starting to crack them, as I have
very little experience with that! That said, I'd be willing to lend some
CPU power to recover the rest :)

-- 
- Finn
finnoleary.net

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 20:41   ` Finn O'Leary
@ 2019-10-03 22:04     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  2019-10-03 23:24     ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2019-10-03 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Finn O'Leary; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society, Leah Neukirchen

Finn O'Leary wrote in <b131e7d8e13b787df8146bd2edcd7bfb@inventati.org>:
 |On 2019-10-03 19:30, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
 |> I did this once, but I never managed to crack all of them.
 |> It was bwk who used /.,/.,
 |> 
 |> My findings (from
 |> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/BSD-3-Snapshot-Deve\
 |> lopment/etc/passwd):
 |> 
 |> [ ... ]
 |
 |Interesting~! Thank you for the quick response :)

 |> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
 |> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole
 |> 8 letter lowercase + special symbols key space.
 |> [ ... ]
 |> Any help is welcome.
 |
 |I'm not even sure how I would go about starting to crack them, as I have
 |very little experience with that! That said, I'd be willing to lend some
 |CPU power to recover the rest :)

The dark powers of criminal energy touched also me, i wanted to
write hazy spheres thereof, but that reminded me of hazy shade of
criminal from Public Enemy ("Once the riot started, it went like
a forest fire") thirty years ago.  (The one rap/hip hop i have
ever heard, with text that really mattered, sometimes.)

Oh, we like that wendy!!! was nothing fast-food alike.
And Kurt Shoens used sacristy!  How could that ever be decrypted.

Thanks, Leah.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 20:41   ` Finn O'Leary
  2019-10-03 22:04     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
@ 2019-10-03 23:24     ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-04  0:59       ` WIlliam Cheswick
  2019-10-04 10:29       ` Leah Neukirchen
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-03 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Finn O'Leary wrote:

>> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash 
>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole 8 letter lowercase + 
>> special symbols key space.

I can't find the original post, but, was upper case not tried?

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 23:24     ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-04  0:59       ` WIlliam Cheswick
  2019-10-04 16:08         ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-04 10:29       ` Leah Neukirchen
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: WIlliam Cheswick @ 2019-10-04  0:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

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I did extensive password checking in 112 at one point.  I saved almost none
Of the original passed files, but I do have /etc/passwd from:

arachne		caspian		cl44		fiji		mhmips		ore		ruble		tempo-hadrian
banc		cd		cl45		irisa		mht40-3		peso		sidewise	vector
bill		cdrom		coorong		irisb		mht40-3-mhbb	quark		subtillion	yankee
bloom		celerity	deneb		jazz		mhuxw		rgbvax		sun1c		zeno
bruce		chaos		dixie		lucian		none		rial		sunshine

This list includes 1033 different user names.  

Most do not have the pw field:

bruce:jpl:2v/xj5FQ.kqVY:4129:4129:John P. Linderman,MH 3D-435,6427 (gc,exp.6/1990):/tmp:/bin/ksh
tempo-hadrian:jpl:BQl9MmYhh.8oE:358:358:John P. Linderman:/usr/jpl:/bin/ksh
tempo-hadrian:jpl:sorry:358:358:John P. Linderman,3D-435,6427,4641129,11384:/usr/jpl:/bin/true
vector:jpl:2v/xj5FQ.kqVY:4129:4129:John P. Linderman,(gc)3D-435,6427,4641129:/tmp:/bin/ksh

Here’s one hash from a famous person.  I believe GPUs can now test over 8 billion tries in a second.

s6BGoOQ8LfLYo



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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 23:24     ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-04  0:59       ` WIlliam Cheswick
@ 2019-10-04 10:29       ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-04 15:05         ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2019-10-04 10:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> writes:

> On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Finn O'Leary wrote:
>
>>> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
>>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole 8 letter
>>> lowercase + special symbols key space.
>
> I can't find the original post, but, was upper case not tried?

That explodes my computational resources (I don't have good GPU).  But
since all the other (simple) passwords use lowercase letters only, I
assumed it was a fair assumption.

-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-04 10:29       ` Leah Neukirchen
@ 2019-10-04 15:05         ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Ken Thompson via TUHS @ 2019-10-04 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leah Neukirchen; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

no, it was tty model 33.

On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:30 AM Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.org> wrote:
>
> Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> writes:
>
> > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019, Finn O'Leary wrote:
> >
> >>> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
> >>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole 8 letter
> >>> lowercase + special symbols key space.
> >
> > I can't find the original post, but, was upper case not tried?
>
> That explodes my computational resources (I don't have good GPU).  But
> since all the other (simple) passwords use lowercase letters only, I
> assumed it was a fair assumption.
>
> --
> Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-04  0:59       ` WIlliam Cheswick
@ 2019-10-04 16:08         ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-04 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1057 bytes --]

9ycwM8mmmcp4Q:graduat;



On 10/3/2019 8:59 PM, WIlliam Cheswick wrote:
> I did extensive password checking in 112 at one point.  I saved almost 
> none
> Of the original passed files, but I do have /etc/passwd from:
>
> arachnecaspiancl44fijimhmipsorerubletempo-hadrian
> banccdcl45irisamht40-3pesosidewisevector
> billcdromcoorongirisbmht40-3-mhbbquarksubtillionyankee
> bloomceleritydenebjazzmhuxwrgbvaxsun1czeno
> brucechaosdixieluciannonerialsunshine
>
> This list includes 1033 different user names.
>
> Most do not have the pw field:
>
> bruce:jpl:2v/xj5FQ.kqVY:4129:4129:John P. Linderman,MH 3D-435,6427 
> (gc,exp.6/1990):/tmp:/bin/ksh
> tempo-hadrian:jpl:BQl9MmYhh.8oE:358:358:John P. 
> Linderman:/usr/jpl:/bin/ksh
> tempo-hadrian:jpl:sorry:358:358:John P. 
> Linderman,3D-435,6427,4641129,11384:/usr/jpl:/bin/true
> vector:jpl:2v/xj5FQ.kqVY:4129:4129:John P. 
> Linderman,(gc)3D-435,6427,4641129:/tmp:/bin/ksh
>
> Here’s one hash from a famous person.  I believe GPUs can now test 
> over 8 billion tries in a second.
>
> s6BGoOQ8LfLYo
>
>


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 18:51 [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files Finn O'Leary
  2019-10-03 19:30 ` Leah Neukirchen
@ 2019-10-05 17:29 ` Michael Kjörling
  2019-10-05 17:49   ` Arthur Krewat
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2019-10-05 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 3 Oct 2019 18:51 +0000, from finnoleary@inventati.org (Finn O'Leary):
> password was something interesting like './,..,/' (it was entirely
> punctuation characters, was around three different characters in total, and
> was pretty damn short).

I'm a bit late to the party here (it's been a crazy week for me and
I'm only just now starting to catch up), but don't forget that hashed
Unix passwords back then were limited to eight bytes (actually I
believe the hard limit was 64 bits' worth of password, so if your
system used less than 8 bits per character, you could theoretically
cram more _characters_ into the password, but not more _entropy_,
which topped out at 2^64 no matter what you did, and in practice a
fair bit less because you wanted to be able to type it in).

Of course, this wasn't a problem in practice when even just hashing a
single candidate password took noticable fractions of a second. At 100
ms per hash, while you could exhaustively search the lower
alphanumerics four characters space within about two days (my
calculator says 1.944 * 86400 seconds for that) if you could hog the
computer for everyone, by the time you got to six characters the same
search would take almost 7 years, and eight characters the better part
of 9000 years (assuming you kept running it on the same hardware for
the duration).

Adding uppercase A-Z alongside lowercase a-z and 0-9 increases the
exhaustive search time even for the four characters password space to
about 17 days at 100 ms per hash. So with no additional information
for an attacker, even a [a-zA-Z0-9]{4} password was tolerably secure,
and a [a-zA-Z0-9]{5} one was more than good enough if you changed it
once a year (would take about three years to crack at 100 ms/hash).

William Cheswick mentioned 8e9 hashes per second. While that sounds
low for good ol' Unix crypt() to me, at that rate, an exhaustive
search of [a-z0-9]{8} would take about 353 days, again according to my
calculator. [a-z0-9]{4} would finish in about 18 seconds. My _guess_,
without having looked up current numbers, is that these figures are at
least some two orders of magnitude too high given modern hardware.
Just look at EFF's good ol' Deep Crack.

I wasn't really around much at the time, but if _The Cuckoo's Egg_ is
to be believed, the bigger problem was that people in general weren't
any better at choosing good passwords (or keeping them secret) back
then than they are today. That honestly wouldn't particularly surprise
me. Technology advances, but people remain largely the same?

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-05 17:29 ` Michael Kjörling
@ 2019-10-05 17:49   ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-05 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I cracked a root password for a certain system, back in the ARPANET days.

If memory serves, it was 5 characters.

I was able to get my hands on the crypt() source, and figure out that 
the first part of it was intentionally "lengthy" and it just 
pre-computed a bunch of stuff on purpose. At least, that's my memory of 
it at the time.

I was able to separate that precompute part, and then loop through all 
combinations further down the crypt() function. Made it a lot faster.

Was able to crack a 5-character password in less than a week (or maybe 
it was a few days) on a VAX-11/750. Of course, it was a simple password 
consisting of lower-case alpha and no numerics.

I think the first letter of the password was "b" which helped a lot ;)

Nowadays, run hashcat on an HPC cluster and you can break a lot of stuff...

art k.


On 10/5/2019 1:29 PM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2019 18:51 +0000, from finnoleary@inventati.org (Finn O'Leary):
>> password was something interesting like './,..,/' (it was entirely
>> punctuation characters, was around three different characters in total, and
>> was pretty damn short).
> I'm a bit late to the party here (it's been a crazy week for me and
> I'm only just now starting to catch up), but don't forget that hashed
> Unix passwords back then were limited to eight bytes (actually I
> believe the hard limit was 64 bits' worth of password, so if your
> system used less than 8 bits per character, you could theoretically
> cram more _characters_ into the password, but not more _entropy_,
> which topped out at 2^64 no matter what you did, and in practice a
> fair bit less because you wanted to be able to type it in).
>
> Of course, this wasn't a problem in practice when even just hashing a
> single candidate password took noticable fractions of a second. At 100
> ms per hash, while you could exhaustively search the lower
> alphanumerics four characters space within about two days (my
> calculator says 1.944 * 86400 seconds for that) if you could hog the
> computer for everyone, by the time you got to six characters the same
> search would take almost 7 years, and eight characters the better part
> of 9000 years (assuming you kept running it on the same hardware for
> the duration).
>
> Adding uppercase A-Z alongside lowercase a-z and 0-9 increases the
> exhaustive search time even for the four characters password space to
> about 17 days at 100 ms per hash. So with no additional information
> for an attacker, even a [a-zA-Z0-9]{4} password was tolerably secure,
> and a [a-zA-Z0-9]{5} one was more than good enough if you changed it
> once a year (would take about three years to crack at 100 ms/hash).
>
> William Cheswick mentioned 8e9 hashes per second. While that sounds
> low for good ol' Unix crypt() to me, at that rate, an exhaustive
> search of [a-z0-9]{8} would take about 353 days, again according to my
> calculator. [a-z0-9]{4} would finish in about 18 seconds. My _guess_,
> without having looked up current numbers, is that these figures are at
> least some two orders of magnitude too high given modern hardware.
> Just look at EFF's good ol' Deep Crack.
>
> I wasn't really around much at the time, but if _The Cuckoo's Egg_ is
> to be believed, the bigger problem was that people in general weren't
> any better at choosing good passwords (or keeping them secret) back
> then than they are today. That honestly wouldn't particularly surprise
> me. Technology advances, but people remain largely the same?
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-03 19:30 ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-03 20:41   ` Finn O'Leary
@ 2019-10-05 18:05   ` Tom Jones
  2019-10-08 17:38     ` Arthur Krewat
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Tom Jones @ 2019-10-05 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leah Neukirchen; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 09:30:31PM +0200, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
> Finn O'Leary <finnoleary@inventati.org> writes:
> 
> > Hi, I remember that someone had recovered some ancient /etc/passwd files
> > and had decrypted(?) them, and I remember reading that either ken or
> > dmr's
> > password was something interesting like './,..,/' (it was entirely
> > punctuation characters, was around three different characters in
> > total, and
> > was pretty damn short). I've tried to find this since, as a friend was
> > interested in it, and I cannot for the life of me find it!
> 
> I did this once, but I never managed to crack all of them.
> It was bwk who used /.,/.,
> 
> My findings (from https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/BSD-3-Snapshot-Development/etc/passwd):
> 
> gfVwhuAMF0Trw:dmac
> Pb1AmSpsVPG0Y:uio
> ymVglQZjbWYDE:/.,/.,
> c8UdIntIZCUIA:bourne
> AAZk9Aj5/Ue0E:foobar
> E9i8fWghn1p/I:apr1744
> IIVxQSvq1V9R2:axolotl
> 9EZLtSYjeEABE:network
> P0CHBwE/mB51k:whatnot
> Nc3IkFJyW2u7E:...hello
> olqH1vDqH38aw:sacristy
> 9ULn5cWTc0b9E:sherril.
> N33.MCNcTh5Qw:uucpuucp
> FH83PFo4z55cU:wendy!!!
> OVCPatZ8RFmFY:cowperso
> X.ZNnZrciWauE:5%ghj
> IL2bmGECQJgbk:pdq;dq
> 4BkcEieEtjWXI:jilland1
> 8PYh/dUBQT9Ss:theik!!!
> lj1vXnxTAPnDc:sn74193n
> 
> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole
> 8 letter lowercase + special symbols key space.
> 
> The uncracked ones are:
> 
> ozalp:m5syt3.lB5LAE:40:10:& Babaoglu,4156423806:/usr/ozalp:/bin/csh

m5syt3.lB5LAE:12ucdort

> hpk:9ycwM8mmmcp4Q:9:10:Howard Katseff,2019495337:/usr/staff/hpk:/bin/csh
> tbl:cBWEbG59spEmM:10:10:Tom London,2019492006:/usr/staff/tbl
> ken:ZghOT0eRm4U9s:52:10:& Thompson:/usr/staff/ken
> fabry:d9B17PTU2RTlM:305:10:Bob &,4156422714:/usr/staff/fabry:/bin/csh

I pointed my FreeBSD build machine at the password file, but it didn't
manage many guesses a second (55000 per core with 48 cores, using john). 

I asked a friend to point their GPU rig at the password file. It is a
MSI Graphics Card R9 290X and is doing about 255MHashes/Second using
hashcat. He is going to do the alphanumeric space and then call it a
day.

    "for hashcat, 80s DES crypt is -m 1500"

- [tj]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-05 18:05   ` Tom Jones
@ 2019-10-08 17:38     ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-08 20:40       ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-09 12:55       ` Leah Neukirchen
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-08 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2765 bytes --]

I have some more out of this list, but not sure if I should send them or 
not. Ken's has not been cracked - yet.

ozalp:m5syt3.lB5LAE:40:10:& Babaoglu,4156423806:/usr/ozalp:/bin/csh

hpk:9ycwM8mmmcp4Q:9:10:Howard Katseff,2019495337:/usr/staff/hpk:/bin/csh

tbl:cBWEbG59spEmM:10:10:Tom London,2019492006:/usr/staff/tbl

ken:ZghOT0eRm4U9s:52:10:& Thompson:/usr/staff/ken

fabry:d9B17PTU2RTlM:305:10:Bob &,4156422714:/usr/staff/fabry:/bin/csh





On 10/5/2019 2:05 PM, Tom Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 03, 2019 at 09:30:31PM +0200, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
>> Finn O'Leary <finnoleary@inventati.org> writes:
>>
>>> Hi, I remember that someone had recovered some ancient /etc/passwd files
>>> and had decrypted(?) them, and I remember reading that either ken or
>>> dmr's
>>> password was something interesting like './,..,/' (it was entirely
>>> punctuation characters, was around three different characters in
>>> total, and
>>> was pretty damn short). I've tried to find this since, as a friend was
>>> interested in it, and I cannot for the life of me find it!
>> I did this once, but I never managed to crack all of them.
>> It was bwk who used /.,/.,
>>
>> My findings (from https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/blob/BSD-3-Snapshot-Development/etc/passwd):
>>
>> gfVwhuAMF0Trw:dmac
>> Pb1AmSpsVPG0Y:uio
>> ymVglQZjbWYDE:/.,/.,
>> c8UdIntIZCUIA:bourne
>> AAZk9Aj5/Ue0E:foobar
>> E9i8fWghn1p/I:apr1744
>> IIVxQSvq1V9R2:axolotl
>> 9EZLtSYjeEABE:network
>> P0CHBwE/mB51k:whatnot
>> Nc3IkFJyW2u7E:...hello
>> olqH1vDqH38aw:sacristy
>> 9ULn5cWTc0b9E:sherril.
>> N33.MCNcTh5Qw:uucpuucp
>> FH83PFo4z55cU:wendy!!!
>> OVCPatZ8RFmFY:cowperso
>> X.ZNnZrciWauE:5%ghj
>> IL2bmGECQJgbk:pdq;dq
>> 4BkcEieEtjWXI:jilland1
>> 8PYh/dUBQT9Ss:theik!!!
>> lj1vXnxTAPnDc:sn74193n
>>
>> But I never managed to crack ken's password with the hash
>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s, and I think I enumerated the whole
>> 8 letter lowercase + special symbols key space.
>>
>> The uncracked ones are:
>>
>> ozalp:m5syt3.lB5LAE:40:10:& Babaoglu,4156423806:/usr/ozalp:/bin/csh
> m5syt3.lB5LAE:12ucdort
>
>> hpk:9ycwM8mmmcp4Q:9:10:Howard Katseff,2019495337:/usr/staff/hpk:/bin/csh
>> tbl:cBWEbG59spEmM:10:10:Tom London,2019492006:/usr/staff/tbl
>> ken:ZghOT0eRm4U9s:52:10:& Thompson:/usr/staff/ken
>> fabry:d9B17PTU2RTlM:305:10:Bob &,4156422714:/usr/staff/fabry:/bin/csh
> I pointed my FreeBSD build machine at the password file, but it didn't
> manage many guesses a second (55000 per core with 48 cores, using john).
>
> I asked a friend to point their GPU rig at the password file. It is a
> MSI Graphics Card R9 290X and is doing about 255MHashes/Second using
> hashcat. He is going to do the alphanumeric space and then call it a
> day.
>
>      "for hashcat, 80s DES crypt is -m 1500"
>
> - [tj]
>


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
@ 2019-10-08 18:38 Norman Wilson
  2019-10-08 18:51 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-08 20:52 ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2019-10-08 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Back in the heyday of uucp, some sites were lazy and allowed
uucico access to any file in the file system (that was accessible
to the uucp user).  A common ploy for white hats and black hats
was to try
	uucp remotesys!/etc/passwd ~/remotesys
or the like, and see what came in and whether it had any easy
hashes (shadow password files didn't quite exist yet).

The system known to the uucp world as research! was more
careful: / was mapped to /usr/spool/uucp.  We left a phony
etc/passwd file there, containing plausible-looking entries
with hashes that, if cracked, spelled out

	why
	are
	you
	wasting
	your
	time

I don't remember whether anyone ever stole it by uucp, though
I think Bill Cheswick used it to set up the phony system
environment for Berferd to play in (Google for `cheswick berferd'
if you don't know the story).

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 18:38 Norman Wilson
@ 2019-10-08 18:51 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-08 21:02   ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-08 20:52 ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-08 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Slightly off-topic, but still UUCP related. If a SunOS box NFS exported 
/, and I could mount /, even without root NFS access, using the uucp 
user, I could overwrite uucico because it was owned by uucp. The entry 
in inetd.conf would automatically run uucico as root. Telnet to the box 
on that port, and it would happily run whatever I put in the uucico file.

Bad joo-joo.



On 10/8/2019 2:38 PM, Norman Wilson wrote:
> Back in the heyday of uucp, some sites were lazy and allowed
> uucico access to any file in the file system (that was accessible
> to the uucp user).  A common ploy for white hats and black hats
> was to try
> 	uucp remotesys!/etc/passwd ~/remotesys
> or the like, and see what came in and whether it had any easy
> hashes (shadow password files didn't quite exist yet).
>
> The system known to the uucp world as research! was more
> careful: / was mapped to /usr/spool/uucp.  We left a phony
> etc/passwd file there, containing plausible-looking entries
> with hashes that, if cracked, spelled out
>
> 	why
> 	are
> 	you
> 	wasting
> 	your
> 	time
>
> I don't remember whether anyone ever stole it by uucp, though
> I think Bill Cheswick used it to set up the phony system
> environment for Berferd to play in (Google for `cheswick berferd'
> if you don't know the story).
>
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 17:38     ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-08 20:40       ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-08 20:57         ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-09 12:55       ` Leah Neukirchen
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-08 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> I have some more out of this list, but not sure if I should send them or
> not. Ken's has not been cracked - yet.

Has anyone tried "John the Ripper"?  And there was another tool (name
forgotten) that was specifically designed to attack crypt().

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 18:38 Norman Wilson
  2019-10-08 18:51 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-08 20:52 ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-08 21:15   ` Michael Kjörling
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-08 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019, Norman Wilson wrote:

> I don't remember whether anyone ever stole it by uucp, though I think 
> Bill Cheswick used it to set up the phony system environment for Berferd 
> to play in (Google for `cheswick berferd' if you don't know the story).

And an excellent story: if you haven't read it then read it; if you have 
read it then read it again.  I'm sure that I have the book somewhere.

Semi-spoiler: the protagonist used to sleep next to his terminal (leaving 
his girlfriend alone) until the perp tried to log in, upon which alarms 
went off and he was finally able to trace the call.

Or am I confusing it with "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Clifford Stoll?

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 20:40       ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-08 20:57         ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-08 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Using hashcat on an nvidia GPU cluster. crypt() is slow on it, I guess 
because the GPUs are not able to do it efficiently.

On 10/8/2019 4:40 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Oct 2019, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>
>> I have some more out of this list, but not sure if I should send them or
>> not. Ken's has not been cracked - yet.
>
> Has anyone tried "John the Ripper"?  And there was another tool (name
> forgotten) that was specifically designed to attack crypt().
>
> -- Dave
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 18:51 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-08 21:02   ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-08 21:22     ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-08 21:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> Slightly off-topic, but still UUCP related. If a SunOS box NFS exported 
> /, and I could mount /, even without root NFS access, using the uucp 
> user, I could overwrite uucico because it was owned by uucp. The entry 
> in inetd.conf would automatically run uucico as root. Telnet to the box 
> on that port, and it would happily run whatever I put in the uucico 
> file.
>
> Bad joo-joo.

*Cough cough* I remember that *cough cough*...

Unix systems in those days were broken in subtle ways; we once broke into 
a Gould (marketed as the most secure box on the planet[*]) by 
social-engineering a marketoid (we tricked him into running a custom "ls" 
or something).  "Thank you Sir, and we've just broken into your Gould; 
there's the root prompt".

[*]
They never did pay us our bounty, because we "cheated" :-)

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 20:52 ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-08 21:15   ` Michael Kjörling
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2019-10-08 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 9 Oct 2019 07:52 +1100, from dave@horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall):
> Semi-spoiler: the protagonist used to sleep next to his terminal (leaving
> his girlfriend alone) until the perp tried to log in, upon which alarms went
> off and he was finally able to trace the call.
> 
> Or am I confusing it with "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Clifford Stoll?

You might be. At least, what you describe definitely bears a close
resemblance to events recounted in Stoll's book. Of course, that by
itself doesn't mean something similar can't have been done by or
happened to others. When all you've got is a hammer...

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 21:02   ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-08 21:22     ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-09  5:49       ` Nigel Williams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-08 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs



On 10/8/2019 5:02 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Oct 2019, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>
>> Slightly off-topic, but still UUCP related. If a SunOS box NFS 
>> exported /, and I could mount /, even without root NFS access, using 
>> the uucp user, I could overwrite uucico because it was owned by uucp. 
>> The entry in inetd.conf would automatically run uucico as root. 
>> Telnet to the box on that port, and it would happily run whatever I 
>> put in the uucico file.
>>
>> Bad joo-joo.
>
> *Cough cough* I remember that *cough cough*...

cough cough back at you, sir ;)

>
> Unix systems in those days were broken in subtle ways; we once broke 
> into a Gould (marketed as the most secure box on the planet[*]) by 
> social-engineering a marketoid (we tricked him into running a custom 
> "ls" or something).  "Thank you Sir, and we've just broken into your 
> Gould; there's the root prompt".

I was able to social-engineer an operator a few times on TOPS-10 systems 
back in the day to reset passwords, or mount disks. "Can you give me a 
list of disks you have ready to mount?" - "blah blah blah" - "OK, mount 
pack BLARG".

But then, one time, I was talking to an "operator" for a while before I 
realized it was an ELIZA-like program that kept going back around in a 
loop. Trying to be suave, I started it by asking how they were doing, 
and got all sorts of weird responses.

At some point, realizing I was talking to a bot, I said: "I feel bad" - 
and it replied something to the effect of "Can you explain why you feel 
bad?". Typical ELIZA response ;)

Someone at that university had a sense of humor, that's for sure. Broke 
into it anyway guessing passwords.

ak



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 21:22     ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-09  5:49       ` Nigel Williams
  2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
                           ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Nigel Williams @ 2019-10-09  5:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: TUHS main list

ken is done:

ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!

took 4+ days on an AMD Radeon Vega64 running hashcat at about 930MH/s
during that time (those familiar know the hash-rate fluctuates and
slows down towards the end).

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  5:49       ` Nigel Williams
@ 2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
  2019-10-09  6:00           ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-09 23:04           ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
  2019-10-10  8:21         ` Dan Cross
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Nigel Williams @ 2019-10-09  5:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: TUHS main list

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:49 PM Nigel Williams
<nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!

BTW, is that a chess move?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
@ 2019-10-09  6:00           ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-09  8:16             ` Andy Kosela
  2019-10-09 23:04           ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-10-09  6:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nigel Williams; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 267 bytes --]

On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 11:52 PM Nigel Williams <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:49 PM Nigel Williams
> <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> > ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>
> BTW, is that a chess move?
>

Most common opening.

Warner

>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  6:00           ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-10-09  8:16             ` Andy Kosela
  2019-10-09  8:53               ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Andy Kosela @ 2019-10-09  8:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Warner Losh; +Cc: TUHS main list

On 10/9/19, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 11:52 PM Nigel Williams
> <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:49 PM Nigel Williams
>> <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
>> > ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>>
>> BTW, is that a chess move?
>>
>
> Most common opening.
>

Descriptive chess notation is not as popular today as it was back in
the 70s, but it actually makes perfect sense as Ken is a long time
chess enthusiast.

--Andy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  8:16             ` Andy Kosela
@ 2019-10-09  8:53               ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
  2019-10-09  9:16                 ` Leah Neukirchen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Ken Thompson via TUHS @ 2019-10-09  8:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Andy Kosela; +Cc: TUHS main list

congrats.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 1:16 AM Andy Kosela <akosela@andykosela.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/9/19, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 11:52 PM Nigel Williams
> > <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:49 PM Nigel Williams
> >> <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> >> > ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
> >>
> >> BTW, is that a chess move?
> >>
> >
> > Most common opening.
> >
>
> Descriptive chess notation is not as popular today as it was back in
> the 70s, but it actually makes perfect sense as Ken is a long time
> chess enthusiast.
>
> --Andy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  8:53               ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
@ 2019-10-09  9:16                 ` Leah Neukirchen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2019-10-09  9:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ken Thompson via TUHS

Ken Thompson via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> writes:

> congrats.

chapeau :)

-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-08 17:38     ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-08 20:40       ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-09 12:55       ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-09 16:17         ` Arthur Krewat
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2019-10-09 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs

Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> writes:

> I have some more out of this list, but not sure if I should send them
> or not. Ken's has not been cracked - yet.

I'd be curious to have the complete list.

Thanks,
-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 12:55       ` Leah Neukirchen
@ 2019-10-09 16:17         ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-09 16:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 385 bytes --]

By crypt() hash:

9ycwM8mmmcp4Q:graduat;

m5syt3.lB5LAE:12ucdort

d9B17PTU2RTlM:561cml..

cBWEbG59spEmM:..pnn521





On 10/9/2019 8:55 AM, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
> Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> writes:
>
>> I have some more out of this list, but not sure if I should send them
>> or not. Ken's has not been cracked - yet.
> I'd be curious to have the complete list.
>
> Thanks,


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 36055 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  5:49       ` Nigel Williams
  2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
@ 2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
  2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
                             ` (3 more replies)
  2019-10-10  8:21         ` Dan Cross
  2 siblings, 4 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Rob Pike @ 2019-10-09 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nigel Williams; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 934 bytes --]

I coulda told you that. One tends to learn passwords (inadvertently) when
they're short and typed nearby often enough. (Sorry, ken.)

If I remember right, the first half of this password was on a t-shirt
commemorating Belle's first half-move, although its notation may have been
different.

Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful. It was
distasteful back when, and it still is. The attitudes around hackery have
changed; the position nowadays seems to be that the bad guys are doing it
so the good guys should be rewarded for doing it first. That's disingenuous
at best, and dangerous at worst.

-rob


On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 7:50 PM Nigel Williams <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
wrote:

> ken is done:
>
> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>
> took 4+ days on an AMD Radeon Vega64 running hashcat at about 930MH/s
> during that time (those familiar know the hash-rate fluctuates and
> slows down towards the end).
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1346 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
@ 2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
  2019-10-09 21:05             ` Bakul Shah
  2019-10-11 12:28             ` Anthony Martin
  2019-10-09 20:14           ` Arthur Krewat
                             ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Kurt H Maier @ 2019-10-09 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rob Pike; +Cc: TUHS main list

On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 09:59:43AM -1000, Rob Pike wrote:
> 
> Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful. It was
> distasteful back when, and it still is. The attitudes around hackery have
> changed; the position nowadays seems to be that the bad guys are doing it
> so the good guys should be rewarded for doing it first. That's disingenuous
> at best, and dangerous at worst.
> 

And not really relevant to this topic, in fact.  It's not like we're
sitting around rainbow-tabling someone's Macbook.  This stuff is, at
this point, of historical interest.  "How many decades old must a hash
be before it's acceptable to decode it" is a valid question worth
answering, but comparing this kind of archaeology to active attack is
slightly absurd.

khm

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
  2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2019-10-09 20:14           ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-10 20:24           ` Clem Cole
  2019-10-11 23:46           ` Finn O'Leary
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-09 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 10/9/2019 3:59 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
>
> Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful. It 
> was distasteful back when, and it still is. The attitudes around 
> hackery have changed; the position nowadays seems to be that the bad 
> guys are doing it so the good guys should be rewarded for doing it 
> first. That's disingenuous at best, and dangerous at worst.

Which is why, after a point, I asked if the results were OK to post.

TBH, I ranged far and wide in my hacking back in the early 80's. I am 
proud of it on the one hand, because it exposed me to systems that I 
would never have had access to. And when I found huge gaping security 
holes, I usually let them know. But on the other hand, well, you've 
expressed the exact sentiment. My only experience with TOPS-20 and UNIX 
early on was because of that.

I never went to college. In fact, I never graduated high school. But I 
was hired as a consultant to do systems programming for TOPS-10 systems 
by the consulting firm that ran BOCES/LIRICS in Dix Hills, NY. I was 
mentored by a great guy, Bruce Maier, and using my hacking experience, I 
continue to this day to try to help both my consulting customers, and 
the general public whenever I can.

I'm a white-hat kinda guy ;)

art k.






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
@ 2019-10-09 21:05             ` Bakul Shah
  2019-10-09 21:09               ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-11 12:28             ` Anthony Martin
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Bakul Shah @ 2019-10-09 21:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: TUHS main list

On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:09:42 -0700 Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 09:59:43AM -1000, Rob Pike wrote:
> > 
> > Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful. It was
> > distasteful back when, and it still is. The attitudes around hackery have
> > changed; the position nowadays seems to be that the bad guys are doing it
> > so the good guys should be rewarded for doing it first. That's disingenuous
> > at best, and dangerous at worst.
> > 
>
> And not really relevant to this topic, in fact.  It's not like we're
> sitting around rainbow-tabling someone's Macbook.  This stuff is, at
> this point, of historical interest.  "How many decades old must a hash
> be before it's acceptable to decode it" is a valid question worth
> answering, but comparing this kind of archaeology to active attack is
> slightly absurd.

I feel more than slightly absurd asking this but is the
password ken used in 1980 is of "historical interest"?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 21:05             ` Bakul Shah
@ 2019-10-09 21:09               ` Warner Losh
  2019-10-09 21:16                 ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Warner Losh @ 2019-10-09 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bakul Shah; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 248 bytes --]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 3:05 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@bitblocks.com> wrote:

> I feel more than slightly absurd asking this but is the
> password ken used in 1980 is of "historical interest"?
>

Only if he still uses it for online banking... :)

Warner

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 21:09               ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-10-09 21:16                 ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-09 22:05                   ` Adam Thornton
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-09 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 10/9/2019 5:09 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> Only if he still uses it for online banking... :)

LMFAO.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 21:16                 ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-09 22:05                   ` Adam Thornton
  2019-10-09 23:28                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Adam Thornton @ 2019-10-09 22:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1164 bytes --]

It is, if nothing else, a nice example of Moore's Law.

Here's a thing on the distribution tape (at least, I assume it was; happy
to be wrong here) but which was assumed to be fundamentally safe, because
it was computationally infeasible to rainbow-table the hash...so why not
leave your real password hash on the images you gave to the world?

40 years later, it's obviously within the reach of hobbyists spending, I
presume, essentially zero dollars to do the computational work (at least, I
hope no one sunk more than a few bucks on doing it).

...which is why we went to salted passwords, and shadow pw files that hid
the hashes while leaving the other fields available to all users, and more
secure and longer hashes than original crypt(1), quite some time ago.

In fact there's an interesting little essay about the history of that arms
race up until about 33 years ago in the 1986 Unix System Manager's Manual,
Section 18.  It's by two guys named Morris and Thompson.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 2:16 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:

> On 10/9/2019 5:09 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> > Only if he still uses it for online banking... :)
>
> LMFAO.
>
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
  2019-10-09  6:00           ` Warner Losh
@ 2019-10-09 23:04           ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-10  6:31             ` Vincenzo Nicosia
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-09 23:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, Nigel Williams wrote:

> <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>
> BTW, is that a chess move?

Looks like Queen's Gambit (remember the Chess machine?).  I never did 
figure out how to counter it, being a King's Gambit bod (although I'm 
coming to grips with the Spanish Defence).

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 22:05                   ` Adam Thornton
@ 2019-10-09 23:28                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Steffen Nurpmeso @ 2019-10-09 23:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Adam Thornton; +Cc: tuhs

Adam Thornton wrote in <CAP2nic2g47RBxDhyvrDBSLSnd6j_bNeSfzkWhOShEFFpWMR\
hKA@mail.gmail.com>:
 |It is, if nothing else, a nice example of Moore's Law.
 |
 |Here's a thing on the distribution tape (at least, I assume it was; \
 |happy to be wrong here) but which was assumed to be fundamentally safe, \
 |because it was computationally infeasible to rainbow-table the 
 |hash...so why not leave your real password hash on the images you gave \
 |to the world?
 |
 |40 years later, it's obviously within the reach of hobbyists spending, \
 |I presume, essentially zero dollars to do the computational work (at \
 |least, I hope no one sunk more than a few bucks on doing it).

Solar cells are costly.
No, please do not say zero xy when you are using electronics.
They are anything else but zero cost, not when their resources are
captured, not when they or their assembly lines are built, not when
they are shipped, not when they are used.

Sorry if i bug you, but this day noble prices where given to
people who improved batteries.  Batteries are ok, but we just
started the next race for rare earth and resources, instead of
looking to a really sustainable future.

 |...which is why we went to salted passwords, and shadow pw files that \
 |hid the hashes while leaving the other fields available to all users, \
 |and more secure and longer hashes than original crypt(1), quite 
 |some time ago.
 |
 |In fact there's an interesting little essay about the history of that \
 |arms race up until about 33 years ago in the 1986 Unix System Manager's \
 |Manual, Section 18.  It's by two guys named Morris and 
 |Thompson.

After i have given up on being smart and started to use very long
passwords, entire sentences when i have to type them,

  dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=512 |
  LC_ALL=C tr -cd 'a-zA-Z0-9_.,=@%^+-'

otherwise, i am now in the position to nag web and other
interfaces here and there which restrict password lengths to 8 or
so, and/or which restrict the allowed content.
Now in public.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 23:04           ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-10  6:31             ` Vincenzo Nicosia
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Vincenzo Nicosia @ 2019-10-10  6:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dave Horsfall; +Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:04:12AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2019, Nigel Williams wrote:
> 
> > <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:
> > > ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
> > 
> > BTW, is that a chess move?
> 
> Looks like Queen's Gambit (remember the Chess machine?).  I never did figure
> out how to counter it, being a King's Gambit bod (although I'm coming to
> grips with the Spanish Defence).
> 

Sorry for being pedantic, but that's just the first move in the
Queen's pawn game. Whether it might become a Queen's gambit or one of
the other hundreds of possible openings starting like that, well,
depends only on where the two players decide to go afterwards ;)

The "!" at the end indicates that the move is considered "strong", or
giving an immediate slight advantage, and is normally read aloud with
a slight grin in your face...

Being a Semi-Slav player as black, I would have probably used "!?"
instead of "!", thus providing a fairer assessment of "p/q2-q4" and
automatically keeping Ken's password safe for much longer ;P

HND

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09  5:49       ` Nigel Williams
  2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
  2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
@ 2019-10-10  8:21         ` Dan Cross
  2019-10-10 11:58           ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dan Cross @ 2019-10-10  8:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nigel Williams; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 435 bytes --]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 1:50 AM Nigel Williams <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
wrote:

> ken is done:
>
> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>
> took 4+ days on an AMD Radeon Vega64 running hashcat at about 930MH/s
> during that time (those familiar know the hash-rate fluctuates and
> slows down towards the end).
>

This feat made it The Register:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/09/ken_thompsons_old_unix_password_cracked/

        - Dan C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10  8:21         ` Dan Cross
@ 2019-10-10 11:58           ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-10 12:07             ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-10 11:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 752 bytes --]

Oh well. Late to the party as usual ;) (time is EST, New York)

-rw------- 1 ******** ***      23 Oct  9 06:09 cracked.node006.txt

  $ cat cracked.node006.txt

ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!



On 10/10/2019 4:21 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 1:50 AM Nigel Williams 
> <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com <mailto:nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>     ken is done:
>
>     ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>
>     took 4+ days on an AMD Radeon Vega64 running hashcat at about 930MH/s
>     during that time (those familiar know the hash-rate fluctuates and
>     slows down towards the end).
>
>
> This feat made it The Register: 
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/09/ken_thompsons_old_unix_password_cracked/
>
>         - Dan C.
>


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 11:58           ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-10 12:07             ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-18 14:34               ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2019-10-10 12:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Arthur Krewat; +Cc: tuhs

Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> writes:

> Oh well. Late to the party as usual ;) (time is EST, New York)
>
> -rw------- 1 ******** ***      23 Oct  9 06:09 cracked.node006.txt
>
>  $ cat cracked.node006.txt
>
> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!

I was notified Bill Joy's password does not yet appear in any list:

bill:.2xvLVqGHJm8M:8:10:& Joy,4156424948:/usr/bill:/bin/csh

-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10  8:21         ` Dan Cross
  2019-10-10 11:58           ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
  2019-10-10 14:05             ` Arthur Krewat
                               ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Henry Bent @ 2019-10-10 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dan Cross; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 799 bytes --]

I have no opinion on the password hacking (especially since Ken seemed fine
with it), but this is to me distasteful.  The media was alerted, and that
media was of all things The Register?  It's not exactly a site known for
its thoughtful or balanced journalism.

-Henry


On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 04:22, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 1:50 AM Nigel Williams <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>
> wrote:
>
>> ken is done:
>>
>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>>
>> took 4+ days on an AMD Radeon Vega64 running hashcat at about 930MH/s
>> during that time (those familiar know the hash-rate fluctuates and
>> slows down towards the end).
>>
>
> This feat made it The Register:
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/09/ken_thompsons_old_unix_password_cracked/
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
@ 2019-10-10 14:05             ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-15 16:32               ` Michael Kjörling
  2019-10-10 14:10             ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-11  2:49             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-10 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1150 bytes --]

It's here, too:

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/forum-cracks-the-vintage-passwords-of-ken-thompson-and-other-unix-pioneers/


On 10/10/2019 9:57 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
> I have no opinion on the password hacking (especially since Ken seemed 
> fine with it), but this is to me distasteful.  The media was alerted, 
> and that media was of all things The Register?  It's not exactly a 
> site known for its thoughtful or balanced journalism.
>
> -Henry
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 04:22, Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com 
> <mailto:crossd@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 1:50 AM Nigel Williams
>     <nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com
>     <mailto:nw@retrocomputingtasmania.com>> wrote:
>
>         ken is done:
>
>         ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
>
>         took 4+ days on an AMD Radeon Vega64 running hashcat at about
>         930MH/s
>         during that time (those familiar know the hash-rate fluctuates and
>         slows down towards the end).
>
>
>     This feat made it The Register:
>     https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/09/ken_thompsons_old_unix_password_cracked/
>
>             - Dan C.
>


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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
  2019-10-10 14:05             ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-10 14:10             ` Leah Neukirchen
  2019-10-11  2:49             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Leah Neukirchen @ 2019-10-10 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Henry Bent; +Cc: TUHS main list

Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> writes:

> I have no opinion on the password hacking (especially since Ken seemed fine
> with it), but this is to me distasteful.  The media was alerted, and that
> media was of all things The Register?  It's not exactly a site known for
> its thoughtful or balanced journalism.

To be fair, I wrote this up on my blog because I really enjoyed this
little piece of history, and put it on lobste.rs, expecting the usual
20 regulars to like it.  I did not expect the story to take off like
this!

(I also declined interview questions from The Register and Ars
Technica, because I don't have anything to add there and did not even
find the end result.)

-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah@vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
  2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
  2019-10-09 20:14           ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-10 20:24           ` Clem Cole
  2019-10-10 20:38             ` Nemo
  2019-10-11 23:46           ` Finn O'Leary
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Clem Cole @ 2019-10-10 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rob Pike; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 416 bytes --]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:00 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

> Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful. It was
> distasteful back when, and it still is. The attitudes around hackery have
> changed; the position nowadays seems to be that the bad guys are doing it
> so the good guys should be rewarded for doing it first. That's disingenuous
> at best, and dangerous at worst.
>
Amen

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 20:24           ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-10-10 20:38             ` Nemo
  2019-10-10 20:52               ` John P. Linderman
  2019-10-11  6:24               ` Dave Horsfall
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Nemo @ 2019-10-10 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Clem Cole; +Cc: TUHS main list

On 10/10/2019, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:00 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful.
[...]
> Amen

Some (large) companies regularly run password crackers on their
employees' passwords and inform them if their passwords are found
"insufficiently strong to protect company assets".

Good, bad, distasteful, prudent, off-topic?

N.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 20:38             ` Nemo
@ 2019-10-10 20:52               ` John P. Linderman
  2019-10-11  6:24               ` Dave Horsfall
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: John P. Linderman @ 2019-10-10 20:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Nemo; +Cc: TUHS main list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1030 bytes --]

Randal Schwartz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_L._Schwartz) got
slammed with 3 felony charges (since revoked) for doing that favor for
Intel. An Intel VP with a ridiculously weak password was unamused. It's one
thing to badger your employees, quite another to post old passwords in the
clear in a public forum. Those old passwords may turn up in unexpected
places, or reveal information that the user would prefer not to be made
public now. (Shame on Ken for liking chess :-). Bad idea, and off-topic.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 4:38 PM Nemo <cym224@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/10/2019, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 4:00 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful.
> [...]
> > Amen
>
> Some (large) companies regularly run password crackers on their
> employees' passwords and inform them if their passwords are found
> "insufficiently strong to protect company assets".
>
> Good, bad, distasteful, prudent, off-topic?
>
> N.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
  2019-10-10 14:05             ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-10 14:10             ` Leah Neukirchen
@ 2019-10-11  2:49             ` Dave Horsfall
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-11  2:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 408 bytes --]

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019, Henry Bent wrote:

> I have no opinion on the password hacking (especially since Ken seemed 
> fine with it), but this is to me distasteful.  The media was alerted, 
> and that media was of all things The Register?  It's not exactly a site 
> known for its thoughtful or balanced journalism.

I've found The Register to be pretty OK, but what would you recommend in
its place?

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 20:38             ` Nemo
  2019-10-10 20:52               ` John P. Linderman
@ 2019-10-11  6:24               ` Dave Horsfall
  2019-10-11 11:09                 ` William Pechter
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Dave Horsfall @ 2019-10-11  6:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019, Nemo wrote:

> Some (large) companies regularly run password crackers on their 
> employees' passwords and inform them if their passwords are found 
> "insufficiently strong to protect company assets".

An ex-employer of mine (not the reason I left) used to do just that.

> Good, bad, distasteful, prudent, off-topic?

Depends :-)

-- Dave

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-11  6:24               ` Dave Horsfall
@ 2019-10-11 11:09                 ` William Pechter
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: William Pechter @ 2019-10-11 11:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 10/11/2019 2:24 AM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Oct 2019, Nemo wrote:
>
>> Some (large) companies regularly run password crackers on their 
>> employees' passwords and inform them if their passwords are found 
>> "insufficiently strong to protect company assets".
>
> An ex-employer of mine (not the reason I left) used to do just that.
>
>> Good, bad, distasteful, prudent, off-topic?
>
> Depends :-)
>
> -- Dave

And when I was an instructor and sysadmin at Pyramid, I caught a 
co-worker with a SUID ksh binary named  "..."  "hidden under his home 
directory in a directory named "..." because su took too long.  Yeah and 
su had logging.  Thank you COPS.  Not that I distrusted him -- but when 
you share sysadmin duties there are things thatshouldn't be done.


Bill





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
  2019-10-09 21:05             ` Bakul Shah
@ 2019-10-11 12:28             ` Anthony Martin
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Anthony Martin @ 2019-10-11 12:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

Kurt H Maier <khm@sciops.net> once said:
> On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 09:59:43AM -1000, Rob Pike wrote:
> > I find this hacking distasteful. It was distasteful back when, and it
> > still is.
> 
> And not really relevant to this topic, in fact.

It is relevant, in fact.

And if you're going to peck someone's password out of a hash, at least
keep your beak shut. Don't write a cock-a-hoop article that will surely
be parroted all over the net. It's foul.

  Anthony

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
                             ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2019-10-10 20:24           ` Clem Cole
@ 2019-10-11 23:46           ` Finn O'Leary
  2019-10-12  0:21             ` Arthur Krewat
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Finn O'Leary @ 2019-10-11 23:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

(my apologies, I sent this the other day assuming it would
  be sent to the list, but instead it got sent directly to
  rob pike! oops!)

I agree, but I do believe that the time itself is a mitigating
factor.

To me this is much more akin to replicating a key for a lock
that is no longer used, than anything else. It really doesn't
serve much more purpose than pure curiosity and is of historical
interest at best.

On a (slightly?) related note, it's very, very surprising to me
that this has hit news outlets. I never considered that this
would get much more than a handful of replies, let alone this
much interest.

--
- Finn
"Enough too is much not!"

On 2019-10-09 19:59, Rob Pike wrote:
> I coulda told you that. One tends to learn passwords (inadvertently)
> when they're short and typed nearby often enough. (Sorry, ken.)
> 
> If I remember right, the first half of this password was on a t-shirt
> commemorating Belle's first half-move, although its notation may have
> been different.
> 
> Interesting though it is, though, I find this hacking distasteful. It
> was distasteful back when, and it still is. The attitudes around
> hackery have changed; the position nowadays seems to be that the bad
> guys are doing it so the good guys should be rewarded for doing it
> first. That's disingenuous at best, and dangerous at worst.
> 
> -rob

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-11 23:46           ` Finn O'Leary
@ 2019-10-12  0:21             ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-12  0:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 10/11/2019 7:46 PM, Finn O'Leary wrote:
> On a (slightly?) related note, it's very, very surprising to me
> that this has hit news outlets. I never considered that this
> would get much more than a handful of replies, let alone this
> much interest.

Nor me. Now my name, along with Leah Neukirchen is out there in 
connection with this. I don't care about myself, but Leah may not have 
wanted her name out there in relation to this.

I was out there for various other things including of all things, Ford 
trucks. And I even have an IMDB entry for something I did way back in 
the mid 80's.

While the white-hat hacker in me revels in the publicity, I, like you, 
am somewhat taken aback by the exposure. I can't blame anyone here or 
elsewhere for that. I'm just a little shell-shocked that the TUHS 
mailing list has this much exposure. WHICH IS NOT A BAD THING!

Ah well... the Internet is what it is. ;)

art k.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 14:05             ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-15 16:32               ` Michael Kjörling
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Michael Kjörling @ 2019-10-15 16:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 10 Oct 2019 10:05 -0400, from krewat@kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat):
> It's here, too:
> 
> https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/forum-cracks-the-vintage-passwords-of-ken-thompson-and-other-unix-pioneers/

The circle is now all; it's back in the blogosphere.

Though Schneier refers to these as passwords of "early Internet
pioneers".

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/10/cracking_the_pa.html

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael@kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-10 12:07             ` Leah Neukirchen
@ 2019-10-18 14:34               ` Arthur Krewat
  2019-10-18 15:01                 ` Royce Williams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-18 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leah Neukirchen; +Cc: tuhs

This has been solved.

First attempted was a full 8-character upper/lower/numeric brute force 
which took over 6 days and failed.

Second attempt was lower-case with control characters, and succeeded in 
around 40 minutes.

There's a control character in it ;)

Because of the outpouring of negativity about these disclosures, I am 
reluctant to post the actual password without the user's consent, since 
he's still alive. If anyone knows Bill, and can contact him, please ask 
for permission.

This was done on three nodes of a Dell HPC cluster, each node containing 
two Tesla V100 nVidia GPU cards, for a total of 30720 CUDA cores.

Session..........: hashcat
Status...........: Running
Hash.Type........: descrypt, DES (Unix), Traditional DES
Hash.Target......: .2xvLVqGHJm8M
Time.Started.....: Fri Oct 18 06:53:25 2019 (40 mins, 1 sec)
Time.Estimated...: Fri Oct 18 08:06:55 2019 (33 mins, 29 secs)
Guess.Mask.......: ?1?1?1?1?1?1?1?1 [8]
Guess.Charset....: -1 lowernonprint.hcchr, -2 Undefined, -3 Undefined, 
-4 Undefined
Guess.Queue......: 1/1 (100.00%)
Speed.#2.........:  1666.0 MH/s (401.65ms) @ Accel:32 Loops:1024 Thr:256 
Vec:1
Speed.#3.........:  1663.7 MH/s (402.23ms) @ Accel:32 Loops:1024 Thr:256 
Vec:1
Speed.#*.........:  3329.7 MH/s
Recovered........: 0/1 (0.00%) Digests, 0/1 (0.00%) Salts
Progress.........: 22674229475111/29366087151182 (77.21%)
Rejected.........: 0/22674229475111 (0.00%)
Restore.Point....: 108847949/714924299 (15.23%)
Restore.Sub.#2...: Salt:0 Amplifier:147456-148480 Iteration:0-1024
Restore.Sub.#3...: Salt:0 Amplifier:134144-135168 Iteration:0-1024
Candidates.#2....: $HEX[6e7010627170696d] -> $HEX[076710740f150509]
Candidates.#3....: $HEX[0a1f676c0f150509] -> $HEX[1f710c1979060809]
Hardware.Mon.#2..: Temp: 61c Util:100% Core:1380MHz Mem: 877MHz Bus:16
Hardware.Mon.#3..: Temp: 57c Util:100% Core:1380MHz Mem: 877MHz Bus:16




On 10/10/2019 8:07 AM, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
> Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> writes:
>
>> Oh well. Late to the party as usual ;) (time is EST, New York)
>>
>> -rw------- 1 ******** ***      23 Oct  9 06:09 cracked.node006.txt
>>
>>   $ cat cracked.node006.txt
>>
>> ZghOT0eRm4U9s:p/q2-q4!
> I was notified Bill Joy's password does not yet appear in any list:
>
> bill:.2xvLVqGHJm8M:8:10:& Joy,4156424948:/usr/bill:/bin/csh
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-18 14:34               ` Arthur Krewat
@ 2019-10-18 15:01                 ` Royce Williams
  2019-10-18 15:05                   ` Royce Williams
  2019-10-18 18:32                   ` Royce Williams
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Royce Williams @ 2019-10-18 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1744 bytes --]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:35 AM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:

> This has been solved.
>
> First attempted was a full 8-character upper/lower/numeric brute force
> which took over 6 days and failed.
>
> Second attempt was lower-case with control characters, and succeeded in
> around 40 minutes.
>
> There's a control character in it ;)
>

I'd long suspected that someone would have done this; it would be a great
way to expand the total keyspace, and extend the life of

But given Ken's seminal work in password stretching and keyspace analysis,
I always suspected that it was ken, not bill.

in 2015, I was intrigued by the idea that he'd left a little puzzle in a
hash that he knew would be publicly available. I even went so far as to
construct a small FPGA cluster in pursuit of that theory:

https://www.techsolvency.com/passwords/ztex/

What original caught my attention was the logic behind enforcing password
quality in passwd.c during a specific era of BSD code, which exited
ambiguously in a double negative of sorts, where control characters were
not disallowed during password entry. (I'll try to dig up the source.)

Anyway, I must have made an error in my original work in 2015, in which I
found both of ken's:

https://twitter.com/TychoTithonus/status/1182181560264491008

... but managed to miss bill's entirely, thinking that it had already been
cracked. In the superset of all CSRG-published distros, there are slightly
more than 1400 total hashes, and one of bill's appears to have been lost in
the shuffle (the other was trivial).

So some hearty (and bittersweet!) kudos for solving this puzzle! It is what
drove me into password auditing as a passion (and profession).

Royce

--
Royce Williams
Tech Solvency

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-18 15:01                 ` Royce Williams
@ 2019-10-18 15:05                   ` Royce Williams
  2019-10-18 18:32                   ` Royce Williams
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Royce Williams @ 2019-10-18 15:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 449 bytes --]

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:01 AM Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:35 AM Arthur Krewat <krewat@kilonet.net> wrote:
>
>> There's a control character in it ;)
>>
>
> I'd long suspected that someone would have done this; it would be a great
> way to expand the total keyspace, and extend the life of
>

Er, "[...] extend the life of descrypt as a hashing algorithm". :)

Royce

-- 
Royce Williams
Tech Solvency

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-18 15:01                 ` Royce Williams
  2019-10-18 15:05                   ` Royce Williams
@ 2019-10-18 18:32                   ` Royce Williams
  2019-10-19 13:11                     ` John P. Linderman
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Royce Williams @ 2019-10-18 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:01 AM Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com> wrote:

> What original caught my attention was the logic behind enforcing password quality in passwd.c during a specific era of BSD code, which exited ambiguously in a double negative of sorts, where control characters were not disallowed during password entry. (I'll try to dig up the source.)

Specifically, see the eras in which passwd.c looked something like this:

https://github.com/dank101/4.2BSD/blob/708b3890ac0c2f034f2840b5ee9125b3c83a05bc/bin/passwd.c#L69-L107

        while (c = *p++) {
                if (c >= 'a' && c <= 'z')
                        flags |= 2;
                else if (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z')
                        flags |= 4;
                else if (c >= '0' && c <= '9')
                        flags |= 1;
                else
                        flags |= 8;
        }
        if (flags >= 7 && pwlen >= 4)
                ok = 1;

I was intrigued that the "special characters" character set was
defined negatively, such that control characters would also count.


Royce

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-18 18:32                   ` Royce Williams
@ 2019-10-19 13:11                     ` John P. Linderman
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: John P. Linderman @ 2019-10-19 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Royce Williams; +Cc: The Unix Heritage Society

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1570 bytes --]

Related story. A user came to us with a problem while we were in our
computer room. We asked him to log in at the VAX console, so we could look
into the problem. Moments later, dozens of users flooded in, asking what
had happened. Seems the first user had a CTRL-P in his password, which,
when entered at the console, triggered the VAX to pause.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 2:34 PM Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 7:01 AM Royce Williams <royce@techsolvency.com>
> wrote:
>
> > What original caught my attention was the logic behind enforcing
> password quality in passwd.c during a specific era of BSD code, which
> exited ambiguously in a double negative of sorts, where control characters
> were not disallowed during password entry. (I'll try to dig up the source.)
>
> Specifically, see the eras in which passwd.c looked something like this:
>
>
> https://github.com/dank101/4.2BSD/blob/708b3890ac0c2f034f2840b5ee9125b3c83a05bc/bin/passwd.c#L69-L107
>
>         while (c = *p++) {
>                 if (c >= 'a' && c <= 'z')
>                         flags |= 2;
>                 else if (c >= 'A' && c <= 'Z')
>                         flags |= 4;
>                 else if (c >= '0' && c <= '9')
>                         flags |= 1;
>                 else
>                         flags |= 8;
>         }
>         if (flags >= 7 && pwlen >= 4)
>                 ok = 1;
>
> I was intrigued that the "special characters" character set was
> defined negatively, such that control characters would also count.
>
>
> Royce
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
@ 2019-10-19 13:45 Norman Wilson
  2019-10-19 20:27 ` ewe2
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: Norman Wilson @ 2019-10-19 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

I'm amused (in a good way) that this thread persists, and
without becoming boring.

Speaking as someone who was Ken's sysadmin for six years,
I find it hard to get upset over someone cracking a password
hash that has been out in the open for decades, using an
algorithm that became pragmatically unsafe slightly fewer
decades ago.  It really shouldn't be in use anywhere any
more anyway.  Were I still Ken's sysadmin I'd have leaned
on him to change it long ago.

So far as I know, my password from that era didn't escape
the Labs, but nevertheless I abandoned it long ago--when
I left the Labs myself, in fact.

I do have one password that has been unchanged since the
mid-1990s and is stored in heritage hash on a few computers
that don't even have /etc/shadow, but those are not public
systems.  And it's probably time I changed it anyway.

None of this is to excuse the creeps who steal passwords
these days, nor to promote complacency.  At the place I now
work we had a possible /etc/shadow exposure some years back,
and we reacted by pushing everyone to change their passwords
and also by taking various measures to keep even the hashes
better-hidden.  But there is, or should be, a difference
between a password that is still in use and one that was exposed
so long ago, and in what is now so trivial an algorithm, that
it is no more than a puzzle for fans of the old-fart days.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-19 13:45 Norman Wilson
@ 2019-10-19 20:27 ` ewe2
  2019-10-19 20:41   ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 63+ messages in thread
From: ewe2 @ 2019-10-19 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Norman Wilson; +Cc: tuhs

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 09:45:30AM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> I'm amused (in a good way) that this thread persists, and
> without becoming boring.
> 
> Speaking as someone who was Ken's sysadmin for six years,
> I find it hard to get upset over someone cracking a password
> hash that has been out in the open for decades, using an
> algorithm that became pragmatically unsafe slightly fewer
> decades ago.  It really shouldn't be in use anywhere any
> more anyway.  Were I still Ken's sysadmin I'd have leaned
> on him to change it long ago.
 
I have a disk from one of Melbourne Uni's old Alpha servers from back in the
1990's and the passwd file is a who's who of staff, but I could only crack 3
of the student's passwords. The system is interesting in other ways, it's a
snapshot of the old oz.au network.

-- 
I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise as they fly by.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

* Re: [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files
  2019-10-19 20:27 ` ewe2
@ 2019-10-19 20:41   ` Arthur Krewat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 63+ messages in thread
From: Arthur Krewat @ 2019-10-19 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: tuhs

On 10/19/2019 4:27 PM, ewe2 wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 09:45:30AM -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
>> I'm amused (in a good way) that this thread persists, and
>> without becoming boring.
>>
>> Speaking as someone who was Ken's sysadmin for six years,
>> I find it hard to get upset over someone cracking a password
>> hash that has been out in the open for decades, using an
>> algorithm that became pragmatically unsafe slightly fewer
>> decades ago.  It really shouldn't be in use anywhere any
>> more anyway.  Were I still Ken's sysadmin I'd have leaned
>> on him to change it long ago.
>   
> I have a disk from one of Melbourne Uni's old Alpha servers from back in the
> 1990's and the passwd file is a who's who of staff, but I could only crack 3
> of the student's passwords. The system is interesting in other ways, it's a
> snapshot of the old oz.au network.
>
Contact me off list ;)

art k.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 63+ messages in thread

end of thread, back to index

Thread overview: 63+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-10-03 18:51 [TUHS] Recovered /etc/passwd files Finn O'Leary
2019-10-03 19:30 ` Leah Neukirchen
2019-10-03 20:41   ` Finn O'Leary
2019-10-03 22:04     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-10-03 23:24     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-04  0:59       ` WIlliam Cheswick
2019-10-04 16:08         ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-04 10:29       ` Leah Neukirchen
2019-10-04 15:05         ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
2019-10-05 18:05   ` Tom Jones
2019-10-08 17:38     ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-08 20:40       ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-08 20:57         ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-09 12:55       ` Leah Neukirchen
2019-10-09 16:17         ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-05 17:29 ` Michael Kjörling
2019-10-05 17:49   ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-08 18:38 Norman Wilson
2019-10-08 18:51 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-08 21:02   ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-08 21:22     ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-09  5:49       ` Nigel Williams
2019-10-09  5:52         ` Nigel Williams
2019-10-09  6:00           ` Warner Losh
2019-10-09  8:16             ` Andy Kosela
2019-10-09  8:53               ` Ken Thompson via TUHS
2019-10-09  9:16                 ` Leah Neukirchen
2019-10-09 23:04           ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-10  6:31             ` Vincenzo Nicosia
2019-10-09 19:59         ` Rob Pike
2019-10-09 20:09           ` Kurt H Maier
2019-10-09 21:05             ` Bakul Shah
2019-10-09 21:09               ` Warner Losh
2019-10-09 21:16                 ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-09 22:05                   ` Adam Thornton
2019-10-09 23:28                     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-10-11 12:28             ` Anthony Martin
2019-10-09 20:14           ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-10 20:24           ` Clem Cole
2019-10-10 20:38             ` Nemo
2019-10-10 20:52               ` John P. Linderman
2019-10-11  6:24               ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-11 11:09                 ` William Pechter
2019-10-11 23:46           ` Finn O'Leary
2019-10-12  0:21             ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-10  8:21         ` Dan Cross
2019-10-10 11:58           ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-10 12:07             ` Leah Neukirchen
2019-10-18 14:34               ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-18 15:01                 ` Royce Williams
2019-10-18 15:05                   ` Royce Williams
2019-10-18 18:32                   ` Royce Williams
2019-10-19 13:11                     ` John P. Linderman
2019-10-10 13:57           ` Henry Bent
2019-10-10 14:05             ` Arthur Krewat
2019-10-15 16:32               ` Michael Kjörling
2019-10-10 14:10             ` Leah Neukirchen
2019-10-11  2:49             ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-08 20:52 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-10-08 21:15   ` Michael Kjörling
2019-10-19 13:45 Norman Wilson
2019-10-19 20:27 ` ewe2
2019-10-19 20:41   ` Arthur Krewat

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