> I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
> That was years after a non-memory managed version of
> Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone
> on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
> on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever
considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
Doug
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 911 bytes --] Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, although I think it required an PC/AT (286) ᐧ On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy < m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981. > > That was years after a non-memory managed version of > > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone > > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts > > on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"? > > IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in > 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the > advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had > settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever > considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered > selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been > rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.) > > Doug > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1634 bytes --]
For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, > although I think it required an PC/AT (286) > ᐧ > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy > <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu > <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>> wrote: > > > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981. > > That was years after a non-memory managed version of > > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone > > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts > > on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"? > > IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in > 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the > advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had > settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever > considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered > selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been > rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.) > > Doug > -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
On 2021 Apr 6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT
> running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine:
headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single
user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO
provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you
using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the
only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have
problems, o was it "setup and forget"?
If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much.
--
Josh Good
On Tuesday 2021-04-06 13:09, Clem Cole wrote:
> Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix,
> although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
I had the SCO Xeinx 286 version. It was OK, but lacked a lot of
features. I ran it on the Sperry IT macine. I think was there
equivealant machine tot the IBM AT.
--
Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213
ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1440 bytes --] Josh, At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By 1984, we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4. Installation was through a VGA console and after it was up and running, you could add serial terminals to your heart's content. We mostly wrote our own software, but had productivity packages for word processing, spreadsheets, and databases (non-SQL). Xenix was my first experience with *nix. I "caught the bug" and have been working with *nix ever since. Cheers, Jim From: "Josh Good" <pepe@naleco.com> To: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Sent: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:11:19 PM Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference On 2021 Apr 6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote: > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine: headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have problems, o was it "setup and forget"? If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much. -- Josh Good [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1897 bytes --]
To try to answer Josh's questions: - I used the machine from console, certainly pre-VGA, probably CGA - I don't recall anyone else using it directly - The primary purpose was uucp for mail and news, dialing into machines at UT-Austin - I can't imagine having anything on it besides what was needed for mail and news - my primary focus was AIX at the time, but hardware for AIX was scarce (https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/) -- after I got an RT in my office, and, eventually, at home, the Xenix machine persisted for uucp, IIRC - my memory was that the AT & Xenix were ok for the intended purpose - I remember a friend questioning whether the AT was really adequate for 9600 baud uucp, but I don't recall having problems with that - it looks like someone kept it in place after I left IBM in 1989, since http://web.mit.edu/kolya/sipb/afs/root.afs/athena.mit.edu/reference/net-directory/maps/uucp.bak/u.usa.tx.4 lists it in 1991 Charlie On 4/6/2021 3:26 PM, Jim Capp wrote: > Josh, > > At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By > 1984, we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4. > > Installation was through a VGA console and after it was up and running, > you could add serial terminals to your heart's content. > > We mostly wrote our own software, but had productivity packages for word > processing, spreadsheets, and databases (non-SQL). > > Xenix was my first experience with *nix. I "caught the bug" and have > been working with *nix ever since. > > Cheers, > > Jim > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Josh Good" <pepe@naleco.com> > *To: *tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org > *Sent: *Tuesday, April 6, 2021 4:11:19 PM > *Subject: *Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference > > On 2021 Apr 6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote: > > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT > > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. > > Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine: > headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single > user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO > provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you > using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the > only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have > problems, o was it "setup and forget"? > > If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much. > > -- > Josh Good > -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2424 bytes --] Like a lot of things, it depends. In the early 80s, they tried to break the 'small' computer market that had been using minis like PDP-11s or DG Novas. A saw a lot of small installations at places like car dealerships and repair houses. You strapped a cheap terminal [Wyse 25/50/60/75 were very popular]. My local Chinese restaurant still runs with 3 Wyse 60s talking to something in the back. It used to be a Wyse 386:16 running Xenix. As Charlie said he ran a UUCP server on one. Someone (3COM maybe) added an ethernet and an 8/16 line serial board like the Rocket Board (which I think I may still have one around) and sold them as terminal servers. to larger systems. A few things happen --- the 68000 style machines such as Masscomp, Apollo, and Sun could do the same thing much better and were not much different in price (remember an original PC/AT 286 with max memory and DOS cost $5K at computerland and it was another $1k for Xenix plus whatever the app cost). Compaq was cheaper but not much. A diskless Sun3 was 7.5K also, but you needed at least one full Sun3 to be the server (and they also sucked, most people bought add-in disk Unix for another 4K -- another good story for another time]. The Apps cost the same between Xenix and Sun and that sort of sealed the deal, particularly when the apps moved to DOS and then were cheaper still. So if you wanted a timing sharing box there were options that were in the same price range and basically 'better' AND IBM/Compaq started to push DOS and that ecosystem which was cheaper. ᐧ On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 4:12 PM Josh Good <pepe@naleco.com> wrote: > On 2021 Apr 6, 12:32, Charles H Sauer wrote: > > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT > > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. > > Hi. I'm curious about that Xenix vintage. How did you use that machine: > headless from a serial terminal?, or at the VGA console? Was it "single > user" or shared among several people? Did you run Xenix and only SCO > provided software, or did you had third party software in it? Were you > using it by choice as your favourite Unix, or merely because it was the > only Unix you could have? Did you like living with Xenix? Did it have > problems, o was it "setup and forget"? > > If you feel like sharing that experience, thank you very much. > > -- > Josh Good > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3637 bytes --]
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, M Douglas McIlroy wrote:
> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had
> been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX
> ran.) [...]
And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf
when IBM tried to contact him.
-- Dave
I developed LSX at Bell Labs in Murray Hill NJ in the 1974-1975
timeframe.
An existing C compiler made it possible without too much effort. The
UNIX
source was available to Universities by then. I also developed Mini-UNIX
for the PDP11/10 (also no memory protection) in the 1976 timeframe.
This source code was also made available to Universities, but the source
code for LSX was not.
Peter Weiner, the founder of INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.(ISC) in June
1977,
the first commercial company to license UNIX source from Western
Electric for $20,000. Binary licenses were available at the same time.
I joined ISC in May of 1978 when ISC was the first company to offer
UNIX support services to third parties. There was never any talk about
licensing UNIX source code from Western Electric (WE) from the founding
of ISC to when the Intel 8086 micro became available in 1981.
DEC never really targeted the PC market with the LSI-11 micro,
and WE never made it easy to license binary copies of the UNIX
source code, So LSX never really caught on in the commercial market.
ISC was in the business of porting the UNIX source code to other
computers, micro to mainframe, as new computer architectures
were developed.
Heinz
On 2021-04-06 10:32, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an
> AT running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix.
>
> On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>> Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of
>> Xenix, although I think it required an PC/AT (286)
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy
>> <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu
>> <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981.
>> > That was years after a non-memory managed version of
>> > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone
>> > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts
>> > on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"?
>>
>> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in
>> 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the
>> advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had
>> settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever
>> considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered
>> selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been
>> rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.)
>>
>> Doug
>>
There is some information and demos of the early 8086/80286 Xenix, including the IBM rebranded PC Xenix 1.0 on pcjs.org https://www.pcjs.org/software/pcx86/sys/unix/ibm/xenix/1.0/ And if you have a modern enough browser you can run them from the browser as well! It's amazing that CPU's are fast enough to run interpreted emulation that is faster than the old machines of the day. -----Original Message----- From: Clem Cole To: M Douglas McIlroy Cc: TUHS main list Sent: 4/7/21 1:09 AM Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, although I think it required an PC/AT (286) <https://mailfoogae.appspot.com/t?sender=aY2xlbWNAY2NjLmNvbQ%3D%3D&type= zerocontent&guid=6f435ae6-0f2c-4fbd-bfe2-adcbf3edac32> ? On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy < m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> > wrote: > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981. > That was years after a non-memory managed version of > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts > on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"? IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.) Doug
Dave Horsfall writes:
> And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf
> when IBM tried to contact him.
The myth that I had always heard was that he was out flying his airplane.
I asked Tom Rolander about it a few years ago, and it turns out that it
is true but misleading; he was coming back from a customer visit, not
goofing off.
Another thing that Tom told me was that the reason that DRI didn't sign
with IBM was that IBM wanted "we own all your stuff and you have liability
for everything" terms. DRI wasn't willing to do that because they had a
real business; Gates had nothing and therefore had nothing to lose.
IBM was pretty heavy-handed. A while ago a kid that I mentored asked me
to review an NDA that IBM wanted him to sign for a summer internship. It
defined confidential material as "anything that is being done, has ever
been done, or is being contemplated by IBM, any of its subsidiaries or
assigns". I told him not to sign it unless they were willing to add
"that we make you aware of" because there was probably nobody at IBM who
knew all of that. So he went to Mozilla for the summer instead, got
jazzed about open source, and made a good contribution. Then, his company
was purchased by Red Hat and then by IBM, so I guess one can't escape.
Jon
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1508 bytes --] On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 7:31 PM <heinz@osta.com> wrote: > I developed LSX at Bell Labs in Murray Hill NJ in the 1974-1975 > timeframe. > An existing C compiler made it possible without too much effort. The > UNIX > source was available to Universities by then. I also developed Mini-UNIX > for the PDP11/10 (also no memory protection) in the 1976 timeframe. > This source code was also made available to Universities, but the source > code for LSX was not. > > Peter Weiner, the founder of INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.(ISC) in June > 1977, > the first commercial company to license UNIX source from Western > Electric for $20,000. Binary licenses were available at the same time. > I joined ISC in May of 1978 when ISC was the first company to offer > UNIX support services to third parties. There was never any talk about > licensing UNIX source code from Western Electric (WE) from the founding > of ISC to when the Intel 8086 micro became available in 1981. > DEC never really targeted the PC market with the LSI-11 micro, > and WE never made it easy to license binary copies of the UNIX > source code, So LSX never really caught on in the commercial market. > ISC was in the business of porting the UNIX source code to other > computers, micro to mainframe, as new computer architectures > were developed. > As the author of LSX and MiniUnix, are you aware of anybody porting them to another non PDP-11 architecture? ISC didn't do that at all, but maybe you heard of something through the years? Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1952 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 909 bytes --] On Tuesday, 6 April 2021 at 18:10:48 -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote: > Dave Horsfall writes: >> And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf >> when IBM tried to contact him. > > The myth that I had always heard was that he was out flying his airplane. > I asked Tom Rolander about it a few years ago, and it turns out that it > is true but misleading; he was coming back from a customer visit, not > goofing off. Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September. Bill Gates was a no-show. Would that fit in with Gary's "gone flying"? Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 163 bytes --]
Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes:
>
> Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates
> were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September.
> Bill Gates was a no-show. Would that fit in with Gary's "gone
> flying"?
>
> Greg
According to Tom, no, he was visiting a somewhat local customer, I
think in the bay area, which is why he was flying his plane. This
wasn't the modern times when CEOs owned fancy jets.
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 06:49:31PM -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes:
> >
> > Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates
> > were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September.
> > Bill Gates was a no-show. Would that fit in with Gary's "gone
> > flying"?
> >
> > Greg
>
> According to Tom, no, he was visiting a somewhat local customer, I
> think in the bay area, which is why he was flying his plane. This
> wasn't the modern times when CEOs owned fancy jets.
Yeah, I went and looked, it was a small $5M/year (not that small)
business and for some reason he was delivering software with his
small plane.
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1699 bytes --] What year was this, Charles? Ed On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:33 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer@technologists.com> wrote: > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. > > On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, > > although I think it required an PC/AT (286) > > ᐧ > > > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy > > <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu > > <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>> wrote: > > > > > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981. > > > That was years after a non-memory managed version of > > > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone > > > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts > > > on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"? > > > > IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in > > 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the > > advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had > > settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever > > considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered > > selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been > > rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.) > > > > Doug > > > > -- > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com > fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ > Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter > <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter>: > CharlesHSauer > -- Advice is judged by results, not by intentions. Cicero [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2950 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1767 bytes --] Serial port performance did not scale well on early pcs, so an industry was grown with smart serial cards. There were a few serial cards, but most didn't have the smarts, just shared interrupts. Best performing, in my usage, was the Stallion brand, an Australian company. These cards had their own processor, uarts and ram. Had used 4-32 ports. I am guessing they did high speed transfers via the high speed bus on the PC, relieving the main CPU from getting interrupts, doing queuing, caching etc. These cards were supported by SCO products like Xenix and Unix, some others and ran on a PC. Flying aircraft could be efficient for some visits that didn't have direct city pairs served by airlines, especially the US. Plus a lot of fun, if you do it yourself. I used to push statistical and financial data around Australia in the 80s via dial up using automated scripting with Zmodem, Sun hosts, PC remotes. Was very reliable. IBM NDAs and legals can feel overwhelming in meetings.... Serge On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 at 11:59, Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 06:49:31PM -0700, Jon Steinhart wrote: > > Greg 'groggy' Lehey writes: > > > > > > Another hypothesis I had ties in with this: both he and Bill Gates > > > were speakers at Euromicro 1980 in London, from 16 to 18 September. > > > Bill Gates was a no-show. Would that fit in with Gary's "gone > > > flying"? > > > > > > Greg > > > > According to Tom, no, he was visiting a somewhat local customer, I > > think in the bay area, which is why he was flying his plane. This > > wasn't the modern times when CEOs owned fancy jets. > > Yeah, I went and looked, it was a small $5M/year (not that small) > business and for some reason he was delivering software with his > small plane. > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2878 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2343 bytes --] Not sure when started, probably 1986, continued through my departure in May 1989, and apparently the machine continued after that. > On Apr 6, 2021, at 9:30 PM, Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote: > > What year was this, Charles? > > Ed > > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 12:33 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com>> wrote: > For much of my last few years at IBM, my uucp machine, ibmchs, was an AT > running Xenix, probably that version of Xenix. > > On 4/6/2021 12:09 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > Doug -- IIRC IBM private-labeled a Microsoft put out a version of Xenix, > > although I think it required an PC/AT (286) > > ᐧ > > > > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:36 AM M Douglas McIlroy > > <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> > > <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu <mailto:m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu>>> wrote: > > > > > I wonder. IBM introduced the IBM PC in August of 1981. > > > That was years after a non-memory managed version of > > > Unix was created by Heinze Lycklama, LSX. Is anyone > > > on this list familiar with Bell Labs management thoughts > > > on selling IBM on LSX rather than "dos"? > > > > IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in > > 1980. (CP/M had been introduced in 1974, before the > > advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) By then IBM had > > settled on Basic and Intel. I do not believe they ever > > considered Unix and DEC, nor that AT&T considered > > selling to IBM. (AT&T had--fortunately--long since been > > rebuffed in an attempt to sell to DEC.) > > > > Doug > > > > -- > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com> > fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ > Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter <https://technologists.com/sauer/Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter>: CharlesHSauer > > > -- > Advice is judged by results, not by intentions. > Cicero > -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com <mailto:sauer@technologists.com> fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5621 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 318 bytes --] On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, Jim Capp wrote: > Xenix was my first experience with *nix. I "caught the bug" and have > been working with *nix ever since. Our Xenix box (out of many Unix boxen) was called "toy" for a reason; it was horribly primitive (OK, it was just a '286), and no longer exists, thank Babbage. -- Dave
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, Warner Losh wrote:
> As the author of LSX and MiniUnix, are you aware of anybody porting them
> to another non PDP-11 architecture? ISC didn't do that at all, but maybe
> you heard of something through the years?
hat depends on whether you count that horrible DEC mini-box or not (name
thankfully forgotten); it was pure floppy, and we had to disable "update"
somehow as otherwise it would wear a hole into wherever the superblock
was.
-- Dave
Jim Capp <jcapp@anteil.com> wrote:
> Josh,
>
> At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By 1984,
> we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4.
1984 was SVR2 time frame. SVR4 wasn't released until 1989....
At what point did AT&T buy NCR? More like early 90s, no?
Arnold
May 1991.
Heinz
On 2021-04-06 23:04, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
> Jim Capp <jcapp@anteil.com> wrote:
>
>> Josh,
>>
>> At the time (1982-83), Xenix was the only Unix available to me. By
>> 1984,
>> we upgraded to a full-fledged NCR 1632 system, with Unix SVR4.
>
> 1984 was SVR2 time frame. SVR4 wasn't released until 1989....
>
> At what point did AT&T buy NCR? More like early 90s, no?
>
> Arnold
On 2021 Apr 6, 15:47, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> - it looks like someone kept it in place after I left IBM in 1989, since
> http://web.mit.edu/kolya/sipb/afs/root.afs/athena.mit.edu/reference/net-directory/maps/uucp.bak/u.usa.tx.4
> lists it in 1991
Very interesting. So I understand the email-through-UUCP duties of that
Xenix machine were to handle not just your personal email, but the email of
several people in a Department, was that so?
If that was the case, how did the other people read their email in the same
Xenix machine, through serial consoles or taking turns at the VGA/CGA
console?
--
Josh Good
I think a few other people got mail through ibmchs while I ran it, but I don't remember if/who/how. I don't know anything about ibmchs after May 1989. On 4/7/2021 11:42 AM, Josh Good wrote: > On 2021 Apr 6, 15:47, Charles H Sauer wrote: > >> - it looks like someone kept it in place after I left IBM in 1989, since >> http://web.mit.edu/kolya/sipb/afs/root.afs/athena.mit.edu/reference/net-directory/maps/uucp.bak/u.usa.tx.4 >> lists it in 1991 > > Very interesting. So I understand the email-through-UUCP duties of that > Xenix machine were to handle not just your personal email, but the email of > several people in a Department, was that so? > > If that was the case, how did the other people read their email in the same > Xenix machine, through serial consoles or taking turns at the VGA/CGA > console? > -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer@technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, Dave Horsfall wrote: > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:41:21 > From: Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> > To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org> > Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference > > On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, M Douglas McIlroy wrote: > >> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had >> been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX ran.) >> [...] > > And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf when > IBM tried to contact him. Gary Killdall was a host on PBS' "The Computer Chronicles" and they did a story on him after his death that covers this, as well as other info on his life and work with DRI. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqBokd3l2E -- Michael Parson Pflugerville, TX
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1835 bytes --] The Kildall biography video is WAYYYYY informative. THANK YOU!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqBokd3l2E Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code. I had an account ("egb") on ucbunix (University of California, Berkeley) in 1978 or so. I was one of the initial "customers" of Bill Joy's "vi". We really need to add Bill Joy to this community. He has a LOT to add to the history of UNIX -- especially from the view from UCB folks. Where is Bill Joy today? Of all the folks I've ever met, Bill Joy is the only one who, had he joined BTL 127, would have had major contributions. He didn't. He went the route of being a founding person with Sun Microsystems. I would have done the same. Bill Joy, where are you? On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 4:32 PM Michael Parson <mparson@bl.org> wrote: > On Wed, 7 Apr 2021, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 17:41:21 > > From: Dave Horsfall <dave@horsfall.org> > > To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org> > > Subject: Re: [TUHS] PC Unix (had been How to Kill a Technical Conference > > > > On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, M Douglas McIlroy wrote: > > > >> IBM famously failed to buy the well-established CP/M in 1980. (CP/M had > >> been introduced in 1974, before the advent of the LSI-11 on which LSX > ran.) > >> [...] > > > > And unlike the popular urban myth, Gary Kildall was not out playing golf > when > > IBM tried to contact him. > > Gary Killdall was a host on PBS' "The Computer Chronicles" and they did > a story on him after his death that covers this, as well as other info > on his life and work with DRI. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVqBokd3l2E > > -- > Michael Parson > Pflugerville, TX > -- Advice is judged by results, not by intentions. Cicero [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2962 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2132 bytes --] On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote: > Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX > in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code. > Some knowns/givens at the time ... 1.) He was a language/compiler type person -- he had created PL/M and that was really what he was originally trying to show off. As I understand it and has been reported in other interviews, originally CP/M was an attempt to show off what you could do with PL/M. 2.) The 8080/Z80 S-100 style machines we quite limited, they had very little memory, no MMU, and extremely limited storage in the 8" floppies 3.) He was familiar with RT/11 and DOS-11, many Universities had it on smaller PDP-11s as they ran on an 11/20 without an MMU also with limited memory, and often used simple (primarily tape) storage (DECtape and Cassette's) as the default 'laboratory' system, replacing the earlier PDP-8 for the same job which primarily ran DOS-8 in those settings. 4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it, it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost about two to four times that in practice. Remember the cost of acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices. *I**'ll take a guess, but it is only that.* I *suspect* he saw the S-100 system as closer to a PDP-11/20 'lab' system than as a small timesharing machine. He set out with CP/M to duplication the functionality from RT/11. He even the naming of the commands was the same as what DEC used (*e.g.* PIP) and used the basic DEC style command syntax and parsing rules. > > Bill Joy, where are you? > Some of us, know how to find him. I know that at least at one time, was made aware of this mailing list and have been invited to join it. It is his choice to not be a part. ᐧ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4830 bytes --]
On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:12:51AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX
> > in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code.
> >
>
> 4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it,
> it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot
> and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M
> byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system
> it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost
> about two to four times that in practice. Remember the cost of
> acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices.
It was around 1983 or so when I bought a CP/M system, I think an
Okidata. It was a weird, but fun, machine, had a printer built
into the base behind the keyboard, dual 5" floppies, 128K less
the bitmapped color display. $2000.
It was slow but dramatically faster than 1/32-164th of a 1MB VAX 780.
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2936 bytes --] > On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 11:34 PM Ed Bradford <egbegb2 at gmail.com <https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs>> wrote: > > > Why did a Ph.D., an academic, and a computer scientist not know about UNIX > > in 1974 or so? 1976? In 1976, some (many?) universities had source code. > > > > Some knowns/givens at the time ... > 1.) He was a language/compiler type person -- he had created PL/M and that > was really what he was originally trying to show off. As I understand it > and has been reported in other interviews, originally CP/M was an attempt > to show off what you could do with PL/M. > 2.) The 8080/Z80 S-100 style machines we quite limited, they had very > little memory, no MMU, and extremely limited storage in the 8" floppies > 3.) He was familiar with RT/11 and DOS-11, many Universities had it on > smaller PDP-11s as they ran on an 11/20 without an MMU also with limited > memory, and often used simple (primarily tape) storage (DECtape and > Cassette's) as the default 'laboratory' system, replacing the earlier PDP-8 > for the same job which primarily ran DOS-8 in those settings. > 4.) Fifth and Sixth Edition of Unix was $150 for university but to run it, > it took a larger at least 11/40 or 45, with a minimum of 64Kbytes to boot > and really need the full 256Kbytes to run acceptably and the cost of a 2.5M > byte RK05 disk was much greater per byte than tape -- thus the base system > it took to run it was at least $60K (in 1975 dollars) and typically cost > about two to four times that in practice. Remember the cost of > acquisition of the HW dominated many (most) choices. > > *I**'ll take a guess, but it is only that.* I *suspect* he saw the S-100 > system as closer to a PDP-11/20 'lab' system than as a small > timesharing machine. He set out with CP/M to duplication the functionality > from RT/11. He even the naming of the commands was the same as what DEC > used (*e.g.* PIP) and used the basic DEC style command syntax and parsing > rules. That is about it. CP/M predates the Altair / S-100 bus, and was designed for a heavily hacked Intellec-8 system. CP/M was developed on a PDP-10 based 8080 simulator in 1974. It was developed for the dual purposes of creating a “native” PL/M compiler and to create the “astrology machine”. The first versions of CP/M were written (mostly) in PL/M. To some extent, in 1974 both Unix and CP/M were research systems, with a kernel coded in a portable language — but aimed at very different levels of hardware capability. In 1975 customers started to show up and paid serious money for CP/M (Omron, IMSAI) - from that point on the course for Kildall / DRI was set. The story is here: https://computerhistory.org/blog/in-his-own-words-gary-kildall/?key=in-his-own-words-gary-kildall <https://computerhistory.org/blog/in-his-own-words-gary-kildall/?key=in-his-own-words-gary-kildall> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3607 bytes --]