From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.0 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEC7422DF1 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 03:10:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0514330E; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:10:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3BD44330C for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:09:59 +1000 (AEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=makerlisp.com; s=s1-ionos; t=1727658599; x=1728263399; i=luther.johnson@makerlisp.com; bh=fe23wtuGsUn1koOKuVDL/lYFr+v2rtVVadVD+L6w60c=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Message-ID:Date: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:message-id: mime-version:reply-to:subject:to; b=oai+z81Y+wODOEypuAQxXKfKs1ANmeU8rPCvsZRRqUpahLpGOmGd2c6Z7ilIlgHF bwL3XzMTvm8TnfDW0I9jtnKhBREgsOvsj8PyAxwIoUGMRD3eUN2D5oUmYy33Vuq22 z30/TsOzNqTp7Laei62yQ4PnierrjAbAYqr6DuaEjOw1u6mC0je0ma1l8+vnaol73 xwUxeXStKzO5LvZx5Is/TLUVPExnQHHX6hVIYvRazMOdfB8joGmnCydW77XnGzdjK GTFXkdjlqzx3g0jZdFg1rjBOgfRfnIeh8i1JQvllx0b22fRzzFmBpiMPK5Xa8jO7O EzjmoAhEbYcad9jg6A== X-UI-Sender-Class: 55c96926-9e95-11ee-ae09-1f7a4046a0f6 Received: from mlhivps ([74.50.126.128]) by mrelay.perfora.net (mreueus003 [74.208.5.2]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M87fT-1rzNw73gTx-012f53 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 03:09:58 +0200 Received: from [192.168.234.136] (unknown [172.56.209.183]) by mlhivps (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 310B6480169 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2024 01:09:58 +0000 (UTC) To: tuhs@tuhs.org References: <20240930003630.GE17434@mcvoy.com> From: Luther Johnson Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:09:56 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20240930003630.GE17434@mcvoy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:HoWmGUEqBnSP7nLbpAklSh8H4SOXYTYRah477/kV6CSJZeVnHFp CFIX58e6b5fgnHUZVFytu9yJ1edZneUDzJfx/ryHgh7lHMsfwEuePUpXz97LbhS/x2vQ2Va O6jGhPV257ooHm2W0eITPAYNBVyYTt7bJSc2BSPUF8p0KMN3j4mn/oi0czYxGoMLh5VFZrV mIIvRLcbvlpFp67aGPZiQ== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:qahmhUmavOQ=;17X4FeLWLonaZdTewj2Vtnd7unO tSy0r1KaGA68KEK/DHPO/tYz5Sh65zEgiybXWhAKvqMhj3C4e6DsvdMrDlqdwFBB6lEJZ7YUQ vmMHcgkuqXj1nmvQSt3u0ww4ak9CfQqqI+0n0aRg/VXCFAbnWBvNLx6MT/4VW3Pa4DE1NB0bg VgZSk3xuVongM8U6jfqS6pU+oZMwHjAS/rCYRI4U7GJ5q9gQg9NXCwVEM51FckEOGIku6Fax4 5g2GMWGWgzUqfWW6ZtW8vtVVY5G8/Z14cl1c2+GAfsHBxMrFPMfovCrD3A4629AWAYzgJBTYR tpzyZNsHOLzI3pOFAWh9h7akZtZxwwPmMFkYe756VU7xrGn2cyqwa2wOi8y1RQO+CepHuuVKi VT8WGcsF8mPYPPSmLfLWTQWGaWkfOOVjXYBwtfCOBMSB6a2vs/WRafxEXlRMV2PN7FToasiOQ EJ6o7Hlt4RKEvm5uktOM7Ym/WmC5gnlEqEOOwp6XqlbC93mCHjSGdsyWPefPLaCMn3IJRqlDp I4eF2aave2/MAxNr0xA/RvWHFeYBZ8n5r799rgNfbkBLESVWy5sotD3ceXbYsKVbMI+3cpzxj p4jiXSBjN13e0zvZqUebepXK5esyB3cQaUBBW95nmeIQB2Fuq0/sPZuI2n1evZBlTyHHxcJdw CAQXeCaqZoLZoBOkN14mbXASu6R4LNVGbTR/+S8w4Q4953p/ESU6p8yyraaF+omm2orLfOZRs +N554AZWLDNBZQNqao+T5ZVbrdrdBIQvQ== Message-ID-Hash: PXZUXCS5XF6DYBG5KHSCS6EPU3HXLRLB X-Message-ID-Hash: PXZUXCS5XF6DYBG5KHSCS6EPU3HXLRLB X-MailFrom: luther.johnson@makerlisp.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Minimum Array Sizes in 16 bit C (was Maximum) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: C# addresses some of the things being discussed here. I've used it, I don't care for it all that much, I prefer straight, not-at-all modern C, but I think there are probably a few dialects over the years (Objective C ?) that have addressed some of these desires for a "better C, but not C++". Do others here have comments on these inspired by C, kind of C-like, but with a few other computer science components, thrown into the language machine ? On 09/29/2024 05:36 PM, Larry McVoy wrote: > It doesn't have to be that way, C could be evolved, I built a very C > like language (to the point that one of my engineers, who hated the > new language on principle, fixed a bug in some diffs that flew by, > he thought he was fixing a bug in C). No pointers, reference counted > garbage collection, pass by value or reference, switch values could be > anything, values, variables, regular expressions, etc. > > If I had infinite energy and money, I'd fund a gcc dialect of that C. > Alas, I don't. But C is very fixable. > > On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 09:56:47AM +1000, Rob Pike wrote: >> I'm saying the exact opposite: they are unavoidably unsafe. >> >> -rob >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 8:21???AM Rich Salz wrote= : >> >>> C and C++ have become non-portable and dangerously insecure, as well a= s >>>> often very surprising to the point that the US government arguing aga= inst >>>> using them. >>>> >>> I thought their main arguments were to use memory-safe languages. Are = you >>> saying the C language can be as safe s go, rust, etc., by language des= ign? >>> (I don't think you are, but the sentence I quoted kinda implies that, = at >>> least to me.) >>>