[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From:

    > I was able to rebuild both the UNSW and the native PWB compiler on PWB
    > 1.0, but not to backport either to vanilla v6.

Any idea what the problem was? I'm curious, because we ran a version of the
Typesetter compiler on the MIT systems, which ran an enhanced V6.

	   Noel

[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Ron Natalie]

Agreed, the typesetter C ran on a virgin V6 system.   That was the whole 
point.   It came out before most of us got real V7s.



------ Original Message ------
From "Noel Chiappa" <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
To tuhs@tuhs.org
Cc jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Date 11/30/2024 11:21:31 PM
Subject [TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix 
Documents)

>     > From:
>
>     > I was able to rebuild both the UNSW and the native PWB compiler on PWB
>     > 1.0, but not to backport either to vanilla v6.
>
>Any idea what the problem was? I'm curious, because we ran a version of the
>Typesetter compiler on the MIT systems, which ran an enhanced V6.
>
>	   Noel
>

[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Clem Cole]

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Exactly -- remember Dennis and Brian wrote K&R in 1978 on V6, not PWB and
not V7 (or anything from Summit like TS).  When Brian's typesetter
independent troff was released, that updated language was needed.   That
was what we referred to as "typesetter C".  Brian and Dennis would have put
together that kit.   My >>guess<< is that Mashey et al. and the Summit
folks forked Dennis compiler somewhere before this time -- so what got
packaged with the typesetter kit vs what got packed with Mashey and the
team's kit are close but >>slightly<< different.
ᐧ

On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 10:49 AM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> Agreed, the typesetter C ran on a virgin V6 system.   That was the whole
> point.   It came out before most of us got real V7s.
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From "Noel Chiappa" <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> To tuhs@tuhs.org
> Cc jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Date 11/30/2024 11:21:31 PM
> Subject [TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix
> Documents)
>
> >     > From:
> >
> >     > I was able to rebuild both the UNSW and the native PWB compiler on
> PWB
> >     > 1.0, but not to backport either to vanilla v6.
> >
> >Any idea what the problem was? I'm curious, because we ran a version of
> the
> >Typesetter compiler on the MIT systems, which ran an enhanced V6.
> >
> >          Noel
> >
>

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[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Clem Cole]

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I should point out to add to the confusion, originally Mashey's team - the
PWB 1.0 folks are != USG (Summit folks)  although the later took over the
PWB work as I understand it.
ᐧ

On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 12:24 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

> Exactly -- remember Dennis and Brian wrote K&R in 1978 on V6, not PWB and
> not V7 (or anything from Summit like TS).  When Brian's typesetter
> independent troff was released, that updated language was needed.   That
> was what we referred to as "typesetter C".  Brian and Dennis would have put
> together that kit.   My >>guess<< is that Mashey et al. and the Summit
> folks forked Dennis compiler somewhere before this time -- so what got
> packaged with the typesetter kit vs what got packed with Mashey and the
> team's kit are close but >>slightly<< different.
> ᐧ
>
> On Sun, Dec 1, 2024 at 10:49 AM Ron Natalie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>
>> Agreed, the typesetter C ran on a virgin V6 system.   That was the whole
>> point.   It came out before most of us got real V7s.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From "Noel Chiappa" <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>> To tuhs@tuhs.org
>> Cc jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
>> Date 11/30/2024 11:21:31 PM
>> Subject [TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix
>> Documents)
>>
>> >     > From:
>> >
>> >     > I was able to rebuild both the UNSW and the native PWB compiler
>> on PWB
>> >     > 1.0, but not to backport either to vanilla v6.
>> >
>> >Any idea what the problem was? I'm curious, because we ran a version of
>> the
>> >Typesetter compiler on the MIT systems, which ran an enhanced V6.
>> >
>> >          Noel
>> >
>>
>

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[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Dan Plassche]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2024, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> 
>     > I was able to rebuild both the UNSW and the native PWB compiler on PWB
>     > 1.0, but not to backport either to vanilla v6.
> 
> Any idea what the problem was? I'm curious, because we ran a version of the
> Typesetter compiler on the MIT systems, which ran an enhanced V6.
> 
> 	   Noel

Yes, I have a general sense after making some progress building 
on v6 and further exploring the PWB 1.0 and UNSW sets as noted 
below.  Would be interested to complete the process and add any 
details I am missing.

I had to use the new c compiler and assembler from the Shoppa 
disk (nix_v6.rl02.gz) to bootstrap the build using the UNSW files 
on v6.

The original typesetter c distribution was supposed to be for v6, 
which is my intended use case, but it appears the third-party 
copies we have available drifted:

- the stock v6 compiler could not build the new "Portable I/O 
  Library" (/lib/libS.a supporting stdio) from UNSW or PWB as the 
  pre-requisite to building the new compiler.  The code is almost 
  all the same in both, although UNSW is missing tmpnam.c.
 
- "old" cc gave a lot of basic syntax errors from the 
  included stdio.h and the library files with some of the most 
  common issues being redeclared items and classes.

- I had to adjust the UNSW includes to point to the 
  in-directory stdio.h file rather than the to be created include 
  path (/usr/include/stdio.h from #include <stdio.h>) that 
  was assumed to already exist (not on v6).

- table.o for the stdio library appears to require the new as

- PWB 1.0 builds already have ncc and are straightforward, but 
  rely on makefiles and use syscalls that are not available on 
  v6

- UNSW's set provides traditional run shell scripts, but 
  incorporates features -- the Bourne shell colon no-op and as 
  with an -o flag -- that are not on v6

- everything for stdio and the new compiler apart from c1 built 
  cleanly using ncc with /xlib

I am still tracking down why building c1 lead to an error (_itol 
undefined).  I think the build is getting close.  Also, I suspect 
that the typesetter c distribution from AT&T differed from what 
we have in terms of the build scripts and likely included 
binaries with the source: it seems that at some point ncc became 
necessary to build later verison of ncc.


Thanks,

Dan

[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Dan Plassche]

> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2024 22:47:43
> From: Jonathan Gray <jsg@jsg.id.au>
> 
> 
> I adapted Tim Newsham's v6 install scripts for PWB if you'd
> like to run it on simh.
> 
> https://github.com/jonathangray/pwb/

Thanks, very helpful and worked well.  Since I was able to 
follow the setup script and rebuild the c versions of nroff/troff 
on PWB 1.0, I took a look at the new c compiler for differences 
with the UNSW copy.

It turns out that the UNSW copy of the c compiler was definitely 
a earlier version than in PWB.  The most noticeable difference in 
the UNSW stdio library was calloc.c not using malloc.  The most 
major omission in the c compiler was casts and there were also 
some local changes to cc.c.  Based on those differences, I'm 
thinking that the UNSW copy appears to be from late 1976 to early 
1977.

I was able to rebuild both the UNSW and the native PWB compiler 
on PWB 1.0, but not to backport either to vanilla v6.


Best,

Dan

[TUHS] Re: Typesetter C Compiler and Troff (Re: Re: v6 Unix Documents)

[Jonathan Gray]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 08:30:47PM -0400, Dan Plassche wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Jonathan Gray wrote:
> 
> > I've seen references to
> > "Documents for Use with the Phototypesetter (Version 7)"
> > which was likely distributed with the licensed phototypesetter tape in 1977.
> > 
> > What may have been the manual distributed with that tape is also close to v7.
> > 
> > https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=Interdata732/usr/source/troff/doc
> > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Other/Interdata/
> > 
> > tuhs Applications/Spencer_Tapes/unsw3.tar.gz
> > usr/source/formatters/troff/doc/
> 
> Looks we have the files from 1977!
> 
> There are 3 distributions on TUHS that have the same general name 
> and number of source files for the "typesetter c" compiler and 
> the "new" troff in C:
> 
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Spencer_Tapes/unsw3.tar.gz
> 	./usr/source/c_compiler
> 	./usr/source/formatters/

same contents in
Distributions/UNSW/7/record0.tar.gz
source/formatters/

> 
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/spencer_pwb.tar.gz
> 	./sys/c/c
> 	./type/croff
> 	./sys/source/s7/croff
> 
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/Other/Interdata/interdata_v6.tar.gz
> 	./usr/source/c
> 	./usr/source/troff

Applications/Usenix_77/ug091377.tar.gz
3/ken/nroff_manual/ 'NROFF/TROFF User's Manual'
same as interdata troff doc, without some files

> 
> The Spencer PWB tape appears to be 1.0.  Dates on files from 
> sccsid comments on nroff/troff and throughout the system are from 
> early to mid-1977 making this the earliest set.[1]  The files 
> under the ./type/croff directory and ./sys/source/s7/croff are 
> the same.
> 
> The UNSW AUSAM tape has the same files as PWB.  An initial check 
> shows some feature flags and structs from PWB are missing for 
> [nt]roff here.  However, there are extra notes on the c changes 
> and the October 1976 NROFF/TROFF manual source for content 
> published in the PWB documentation.  The latest dates on other 
> files are from early to mid-1978.[2]
> 
> The Interdata files have lots of added comments and changes with 
> a late 1978 date listed in some files[3].  It does have extra 
> READ_ME files confirming that this was pre-release v7 c compiler 
> for v6, which helps validate the PWB and UNSW content.
> 
> I'll work from the PWB and UNSW files with the plan to send troff 
> details to the groff list and rebuild the compiler in the 
> process.  Glad to confirm if the build succeeds and I find out 
> any further details about the compiler if relevant for TUHS.

I adapted Tim Newsham's v6 install scripts for PWB if you'd
like to run it on simh.

https://github.com/jonathangray/pwb/

Base system from the Bostic tapes, troff installed from
the Spencer tape.

> 
>  1. Examples: ./usr/man/man0/introduction: May 1977 and 
>     ./usr/man/man0/documents: August 1977
> 
>  2. As printed in the copy available at: 
> 
>  http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/att/unix/PWB_UNIX/Documents_for_the_PWB_UNIX_Time-Sharing_System_Edition_1.0_197710.pdf
> 
>     Updates like the January 1978 changes to the dz serial code 
>     provided by Dennis at ./usr/sys/dmr/dz.c.
> 
>  3. Such as ./usr/doc/cman/cman1: June 1978.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dan
>