From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 11221 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2023 15:19:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jun 2023 15:19:48 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A644149A; Sun, 4 Jun 2023 01:19:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0077941496 for ; Sun, 4 Jun 2023 01:19:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81535C014F; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:19:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ronnatalie.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t= 1685805570; x=1685891970; bh=Hf4Snk0E2J2LfD9K2qaxJ3mbue61RBzRf/6 kFaqcVMU=; b=Jdb2Zs6fIQ4IAqCHnBtieXfzM5fKuH73hcvfFEcRDz1gLjr83vH mqsAAdL0TUY744RdO5jipBcux84jXvFxjMDVl9Mx7r2n0OLcsr45v3yvySWJcrXV Ex6MVYxYnywI6L7jLhwxtdYs7mkEF3LAxzmetHTb09NCY9lZ2USs6tTASpvEZW9A jsG+Y9aLLq5ZlHt9RXpbOQXqbxS0x43Ph/4z88trO3o8LV8Ui6beMo7MGRGygxMZ tcakuWYgDytXI/mUcfs3owJKqDreDhR+whJCFLQWFfk5IQ+lGnUmegv8Iu3QSRYb DuvAxAIh8d1YBnE7ro99bqLIBrs7eQeX4Jw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1685805570; x=1685891970; bh=H f4Snk0E2J2LfD9K2qaxJ3mbue61RBzRf/6kFaqcVMU=; b=GmS0QdIVdbF1jeD9U VdgGuVKp+9NN1tTVd58Rkh/jsIgvweoz6YlPkpEH0kcxIbNXmgG2pmxEg5qXzAD7 HnH81KfAY07yk+1lQpR7dlcbT6n/Bizgc6x/slJVPMMWn80h/3Opgs+dWXbNdHji Rt//Q40ZaFPae3N8uN7PdUsYFiV5oxNMTME4xGakQjcDyj8/dmVHgbd0EaJ7ZPO8 tcr3+YmgwJXYd5U54Oy5OEb+Y4QMR3ceZyAkcnMSeVcTWkfxwdEz3HTihQ8LrBVv rfMf6SY1J1fUhAod2BT91kMuZvA1Skak++3+9bicoMv+1SKCHuAuvofRlbrBMakv tvf2Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvhedrfeelhedgkeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffvufevfffkjghfrhgfgggtsegrtderredtreejnecuhfhrohhmpedftfho nhcupfgrthgrlhhivgdfuceorhhonhesrhhonhhnrghtrghlihgvrdgtohhmqeenucggtf frrghtthgvrhhnpefgudeivdelgeeivdeugeefgfejtdfggfefkeffffelheevvdfhgefg leehieetieenucffohhmrghinhepthhuhhhsrdhorhhgpdhnhihgvggvkhdrnhgvthdpmh hinhguthhhvghgrghpughirghlohhgshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehrohhnsehrohhnnhgrthgrlhhivgdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: iaba146ad:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 11:19:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron Natalie" To: "Marc Donner" , segaloco Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 15:19:29 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: eM_Client/9.2.1841.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MB2CF3CD3D-FE9D-4EC9-B5EB-D521AC335323" Message-ID-Hash: W5DRBFENDCDY2PLAAWW22DF7SU6YLZHW X-Message-ID-Hash: W5DRBFENDCDY2PLAAWW22DF7SU6YLZHW X-MailFrom: ron@ronnatalie.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Ron Natalie Subject: [TUHS] Re: CB-UNIX dsw(1l) Page from PDP-7? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --------=_MB2CF3CD3D-FE9D-4EC9-B5EB-D521AC335323 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Might have been a ditto or mimeograh at some point. We had such=20 section 1 manuals at JHU when I was a student there in 1977. ------ Original Message ------ >From "Marc Donner" To "segaloco" Cc "The Eunuchs Hysterical Society" Date 6/3/23, 8:59:35 AM Subject [TUHS] Re: CB-UNIX dsw(1l) Page from PDP-7? >Wow. I=E2=80=99m impressed =E2=80=A6 that pdf is clearly of an nth genera= tion=20 >photocopy. What contrast ratio? > >More seriously, this is a delightful proof point that some cruft is=20 >really cruft. > >Your document archaeology work is entertaining and instructive. Thank=20 >you! > >Best, > >Marc >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:04 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: >>While performing my CB-UNIX 2.3 manual separation, among the many=20 >>curious things I came across was this manual page:=20 >>https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/man/man1/dsw.1l.p= df >> >>The dsw(I) pages I've seen in the various UNIX manuals are all for the=20 >>interactive delete utility, but make brief mention of the history of=20 >>the command being amusing. I've seen some communication on the matter=20 >>of the years here, but had never come across a manual page for the=20 >>former version of dsw. >> >>In the linked page up there is the actual "delete from switches"=20 >>version of dsw. What I find particularly interesting is that the=20 >>footer indicates this was printed 8/11/81, but likewise indicates the=20 >>command is "PDP-7 local". >> >>This raises a couple of questions: >> >>- Did Columbus ever touch PDP-7 UNIX? >>- Did dsw(I) as "delete from switches" ever make it to PDP-11 UNIX? =20 >>Even the V1 manual lists the "delete interactively" utility, not this. >>- If neither are true, that begs the question of where this page came=20 >>from, if there was ever a formalized PDP-7 manual that it would've=20 >>descended from or not, etc. >> >>Finally, this page plainly spells out the history of the command in=20 >>the bugs section: >> >>"This command was written in 2 minutes to delete a particular file=20 >>that managed to get an 0200 bit in its name. It should work by=20 >>printing the name of each file in a specified directory and requestion=20 >>a 'y' or 'n' answer. Better, it should be an option of rm(1). The=20 >>name is mnemonic, but likely to cause trouble in the future." >> >>So the first bug is eventually mitigated by transforming this into the=20 >>more familiar dsw. I can't say what the latter means, whether it's a=20 >>concern of "dsw" colliding with some reserved word eventually or is=20 >>more poking fun at the other folk etymology of "delete s__t work". >> >>In any case, I hadn't seen the etymology explained to this degree in=20 >>the mailing list references I found while searching around, so figured=20 >>I'd share this analysis. >> >>- Matt G. >> >>P.S. There is mention here that Dennis Ritchie shared the original dsw=20 >>manpage at some point=20 >>https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/1999-November/001203.html however=20 >>the link in question appears to be dead. In any case, the source for=20 >>the PDP-7 version is in that email if anyone wants to look at it,=20 >>although looks to be the same as what is in the archive. >-- >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >nygeek.net >mindthegapdialogs.com/home --------=_MB2CF3CD3D-FE9D-4EC9-B5EB-D521AC335323 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div>Might have been a ditto or mimeograh at some point. =C2=A0 We had such= section 1 manuals at JHU when I was a student there in 1977.=0A
<= br />
=0A
=0A
------ Original Message ------
=0A
From = "Marc Donner" <marc.donner@gma= il.com>
=0A
To "segaloco" <segaloco@protonmail.com>
=0A
Cc "The Eunuchs= Hysterical Society" <tuhs@tuhs.org&= gt;
=0A
Date 6/3/23, 8:59:35 AM
=0A
Subject [TUHS] Re: CB= -UNIX dsw(1l) Page from PDP-7?

=0A
=0A
Wow.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m impressed =E2=80=A6 that pdf is clearly of an = nth generation photocopy.=C2=A0 What contrast ratio?

More seriously, this is a delightful proof= point that some cruft is really cruft.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Your document archaeology work is entertaining and instruc= tive.=C2=A0 Thank you!

Best,

Marc
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 7:04 PM segaloco via TUHS &l= t;tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
=
While performing my CB-UNIX 2.3 manual separation, among t= he many curious things I came across was this manual page: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/man= /man1/dsw.1l.pdf
=0A
=0AThe dsw(I) pages I've seen in the var= ious UNIX manuals are all for the interactive delete utility, but make brie= f mention of the history of the command being amusing.=C2=A0 I've seen some = communication on the matter of the years here, but had never come across a = manual page for the former version of dsw.
=0A
=0AIn the linked= page up there is the actual "delete from switches" version of dsw.=C2=A0 Wh= at I find particularly interesting is that the footer indicates this was pr= inted 8/11/81, but likewise indicates the command is "PDP-7 local".
= =0A
=0AThis raises a couple of questions:
=0A
=0A- Did Colum= bus ever touch PDP-7 UNIX?
=0A- Did dsw(I) as "delete from switches" e= ver make it to PDP-11 UNIX?=C2=A0 Even the V1 manual lists the "delete inte= ractively" utility, not this.
=0A- If neither are true, that begs the= question of where this page came from, if there was ever a formalized PDP-7 = manual that it would've descended from or not, etc.
=0A
=0AFinal= ly, this page plainly spells out the history of the command in the bugs sec= tion:
=0A
=0A"This command was written in 2 minutes to delete a p= articular file that managed to get an 0200 bit in its name.=C2=A0 It should = work by printing the name of each file in a specified directory and reques= tion a 'y' or 'n' answer.=C2=A0 Better, it should be an option of rm(1).=C2= =A0 The name is mnemonic, but likely to cause trouble in the future."
= =0A
=0ASo the first bug is eventually mitigated by transforming this i= nto the more familiar dsw.=C2=A0 I can't say what the latter means, whether = it's a concern of "dsw" colliding with some reserved word eventually or is = more poking fun at the other folk etymology of "delete s__t work".
= =0A
=0AIn any case, I hadn't seen the etymology explained to this degr= ee in the mailing list references I found while searching around, so figure= d I'd share this analysis.
=0A
=0A- Matt G.
=0A
=0AP.S. = There is mention here that Dennis Ritchie shared the original dsw manpage= at some point https://www.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/1999-No= vember/001203.html however the link in question appears to be dead.=C2= =A0 In any case, the source for the PDP-7 version is in that email if anyon= e wants to look at it, although looks to be the same as what is in the arch= ive.
=0A
--
= =0A=0A --------=_MB2CF3CD3D-FE9D-4EC9-B5EB-D521AC335323--